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Inferno: Is The Rifter Terrible Now?

Author
Ginger Barbarella
#21 - 2012-07-17 21:14:58 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Major Killz wrote:
Tl,dr

I have no interest in whether things are or not balanced (don't care). I'm interested in setups by those who have adapted to these new changes. Nothing more nothing less. Everything else is meh! This is about setups...

So post those setups gentlemen.


- end of transmission


No need to be an ass.


He's quite right. Posting something like "if you know how to fly -X- you'll always win" is about as helpful as a hangnail. You think you "know how to fly" something? Prove it, and educate those that don't/don't think they can.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac

Alara IonStorm
#22 - 2012-07-17 21:47:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Ginger Barbarella wrote:

He's quite right. Posting something like "if you know how to fly -X- you'll always win" is about as helpful as a hangnail. You think you "know how to fly" something? Prove it, and educate those that don't/don't think they can.

I never posted "if you know how to fly -X- you'll always win" at all. He asked if the ship was terrible and it isn't. The other ships can best it in a 1v1 most of the time but they all have weaknesses and the Rifter is good in other area's. The fits the OP posted are very similar to my own preferred Rifter fits. The guy obviously know how to fit a Rifter but wondered if it was terrible so I mentioned the other applications the ship is useful for and the advantages it has.

I mentioned tactics that with his fits help such as kiting blasters short range guns inside there webs and taking advantage of lasers poor tracking.
Major Killz
Tr0pa de elite.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#23 - 2012-07-17 22:02:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Major Killz
There was nothing malicious behind my response to Alara IonStorm. I just had no interest in broader issues. Which was in Alara IonStorm's post. Didn't want this thread to turn into one of those. I wanted solutions players could put in effect threw fittings and not possible changes applied by CCP.

So I was interested in out of the box setups or setups that are still viable.

In anycase. Clearly there's not much out there in terms of viable setups left for the Rifter. @tleast versus the Punisher, Incursus and Merlin.

The argument around the response of both pilots is a strange one. Considering we did not escalate into harsh words...


- end of transmission

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ![/u]

Alara IonStorm
#24 - 2012-07-17 22:19:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Major Killz wrote:
There was nothing malicious behind my response to Alara IonStorm. I just had no interest in broader issues. Which was in Alara IonStorm's post. Didn't want this thread to turn into one of those.

The argument around the response of both pilots is a strange one. Considering we did no escalate into harsh words...

I know I sometimes come off as being a smartass or worse condescending but I was really trying to help. Sorry it threw your thread off topic. I didn't think your posts was malicious and don't like forum slap fights either. I especially think harsh words are kiddish and try to avoid them when possible.

I've had some effective tactics used against me one being a particular TD fit that but it requires being AB fit and them not being AB fit.

[Rifter, TD]
400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I
Pseudoelectron Containment Field I

1MN Afterburner II
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script
Warp Scrambler II

200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S
200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S
200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S
[empty high slot]

Small Projectile Ambit Extension I
Small Projectile Ambit Extension I
Small Projectile Burst Aerator I

Using an AB to counteract there web and a TD to cut there range. Armor Rigs just lets them close on you do to speed though. If they are AB Fit with a web you still have a chance by switching to the tracking script, especially against Punishers but not much of one.
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2012-07-17 23:16:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Roosterton
The rifter has versatility on its side. It has the speed and range flexibility to control a fight, kite, or disengage as necessary. It can also fit a nos, which makes it suitable for engaging things larger than frigates. Nobody really knows what to expect out of it.

It's the best frigate if you're blindly roaming and don't know what you might engage. You can adapt to different situations. Fighting a cruiser? Orbit close, NOS, shoot drones. Fighting an incursus? Load barrage, web, kite at the edge of scram range. Fighting a Punisher? Get close and use your superior tracking to your advantage.

It's not excellent at any one role, but that's a fair price to pay for being able to perform every role.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#26 - 2012-07-17 23:23:05 UTC
Roosterton wrote:
The rifter has versatility on its side. It has the speed and range flexibility to control a fight, kite, or disengage as necessary. It can also fit a nos, which makes it suitable for engaging things larger than frigates. Nobody really knows what to expect out of it.

It's the best frigate if you're blindly roaming and don't know what you might engage. You can adapt to different situations. Fighting a cruiser? Orbit close, NOS, shoot drones. Fighting an incursus? Load barrage, web, kite at the edge of scram range. Fighting a Punisher? Get close and use your superior tracking to your advantage.

It's not excellent at any one role, but that's a fair price to pay for being able to perform every role.



This. Even with the Rifter not being the 'best' at every role around now, it still stands as arguably the most versatile, and one of the few that is capable with multiple fits (brawler, sniper, etc). I don't see it going away as the top used frigate in pvp, but I love the idea of seeing more of the others appearing on the field and being a viable threat! Bear

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly

Arnst Atram
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2012-07-18 06:22:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Arnst Atram
Roosterton wrote:
The rifter has versatility on its side. It has the speed and range flexibility to control a fight, kite, or disengage as necessary. It can also fit a nos, which makes it suitable for engaging things larger than frigates. Nobody really knows what to expect out of it.

It's the best frigate if you're blindly roaming and don't know what you might engage. You can adapt to different situations. Fighting a cruiser? Orbit close, NOS, shoot drones. Fighting an incursus? Load barrage, web, kite at the edge of scram range. Fighting a Punisher? Get close and use your superior tracking to your advantage.

It's not excellent at any one role, but that's a fair price to pay for being able to perform every role.


While the Rifter is slightly faster when both are AB fit, i can fit a Long Point on an Incursus alongside a MWD without downgrading my Guns. It's fair to say an Incursus can dictate range in neutral circumstances. If the Rifter pilot gets the drop, sure, but this is basically EFTWarrioring.

That aside i haven't had too much trouble hitting targets at 9km with Void anyway, assuming i fit a TE, which i usually do, plus the Drone is worth its weight in Gold for an Incursus. (Edit: i just realized i also fit an Optimal Rig, since it's all that was available.)

A Rifter can do it, it's just that aside from maintaining point under Cap pressure (A role soon to be taken over by other Frigates), everything a Rifter can do a Merlin or Incursus does it better.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#28 - 2012-07-18 07:25:25 UTC
Rifter was and still is the Drake of Frigates, anyone can fly one, fit one, it might not be the best but because it flies so easy and can do so many things and looks cool as well. It is still a very good ship.


Even before the reballance the Rifter wasn't the best frigate, but the easiest to put someone in.
Major Killz
Tr0pa de elite.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#29 - 2012-07-18 12:19:18 UTC
Well, I have no Merlin setup that can defeat a dual armor repair Incursus; I do have a Rifter setup that can. Once someone starts flying a Incursus with a 200mm plate, armor repair + Neutron blasters things become difficult...

I do believe the Rifter isn't far from the Incursus in terms of effectiveness.

I don't even like the Incursus anymore. I've engaged a few Thrashers with it on purpose, just to see what's possible. Doesn't take much capacitor warfare to ruin an incursus and while I can run 1 armor repair while being effected by a neutralizer. It's not enough. The Incursus range with Ions is also pretty terrible. Mind you I have never used a setup only geared towards defense with no damage modules like the one below. I've been told it can tank a Thrashers damage with 1 armor repair if the Thrasher is using explosive damage.

Incursus
Small Armor Repairer II
Small Armor Repairer II
Damage Control II
Prototype Armor Explosive Hardener I

Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I
Small Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 25

Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S

Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Small Nanobot Accelerator I

So, tier 4 frigates seem to be balanced with one another. One of these ships can defeat another ships optimum setup.


- end of transmission

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ![/u]

Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2012-07-18 16:12:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Roosterton
Quote:
While the Rifter is slightly faster when both are AB fit, i can fit a Long Point on an Incursus alongside a MWD without downgrading my Guns. It's fair to say an Incursus can dictate range in neutral circumstances. If the Rifter pilot gets the drop, sure, but this is basically EFTWarrioring.

That aside i haven't had too much trouble hitting targets at 9km with Void anyway, assuming i fit a TE, which i usually do, plus the Drone is worth its weight in Gold for an Incursus. (Edit: i just realized i also fit an Optimal Rig, since it's all that was available.)


Of course if you fit your ship specifically to counter a rifter that's fitted in a certain way, you're going to beat that rifter. What if the rifter fitted artillery, MWD, and a longpoint, kiting at 20km? You're slow enough that you can't catch it in your incursus, and good luck hitting 20k with blasters. Of course, if you fit specifically with rails to counter such as a setup, you might survive.

We could go on in endless circles, but the fact is that the rifter's versatility makes it very unlikely that your setup is going to be the perfect counter to whatever the rifter is using. Maybe you always fit a TE and an optimal rig, but that doesn't make it a standard incursus, nor does it mean that every rifter is going to try kiting you at the edge of scram range.
Sovai Elaaren
KABS Deep Recon Unit
#31 - 2012-07-18 16:15:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Sovai Elaaren
I've been looking for a similar fit, OP, trying to find something that can give you reasonable chances against the other t1 buffed frigs in a brawl and this is what I've come up with to try:

[Rifter, Hellshard]
Small Armor Repairer II
200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II

Warp Scrambler II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
1MN Afterburner II

200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S
200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Rocket
200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S

Small Projectile Ambit Extension I
Small Projectile Ambit Extension I
Small Projectile Burst Aerator I


It's faster than a shield fit Merlin and a solidly armor-tanked Incursus or Punisher, so the idea is to use your speed to sit out around 8-8.5km and pick away at them.

You're looking at 129dps with heat (barrage for better damage projection at that range), 1103m/s and a bit of rep to try to mitigate the bit of damage you'll be receiving. The idea would be to outlast them, mitigating their damage by using your falloff and speed. Except with a punisher, where you'd try to get in close and out track it.

I took it out last night but didn't find anyone to try it on yet, but seems like it'd be worth a shot.
Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#32 - 2012-07-18 17:17:45 UTC
Sovai Elaaren wrote:
I've been looking for a similar fit, OP, trying to find something that can give you reasonable chances against the other t1 buffed frigs in a brawl and this is what I've come up with to try:

[Rifter, Hellshard]
Small Armor Repairer II
200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II

Warp Scrambler II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
1MN Afterburner II

200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S
200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Rocket
200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S

Small Projectile Ambit Extension I
Small Projectile Ambit Extension I
Small Projectile Burst Aerator I


It's faster than a shield fit Merlin and a solidly armor-tanked Incursus or Punisher, so the idea is to use your speed to sit out around 8-8.5km and pick away at them.

You're looking at 129dps with heat (barrage for better damage projection at that range), 1103m/s and a bit of rep to try to mitigate the bit of damage you'll be receiving. The idea would be to outlast them, mitigating their damage by using your falloff and speed. Except with a punisher, where you'd try to get in close and out track it.

I took it out last night but didn't find anyone to try it on yet, but seems like it'd be worth a shot.


Not sure about the Rocket Launcher - I'd go 3x 200mm and an RoF mod in the lows in place of the DC. I'm not a fan of armor reppers on Rifters, but that's a personal choice.
Sovai Elaaren
KABS Deep Recon Unit
#33 - 2012-07-18 17:29:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Sovai Elaaren
Traejun DiSanctis wrote:

Not sure about the Rocket Launcher - I'd go 3x 200mm and an RoF mod in the lows in place of the DC. I'm not a fan of armor reppers on Rifters, but that's a personal choice.


What would you use other than 3x 200mm and a rocket launcher? You won't be in range for nos/neut unless you're using deadspace.

As for the DC, you're right, you could drop it for a Gyro or a TE for much better damage projection, but you'd probably be in trouble if the fight doesn't start at range.
Cpt Branko
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2012-07-18 17:36:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Cpt Branko
Who's pulling the 2007 Rifter fits out of the graveyard? Big smile

This *could* work. Not sure if it is enough to actually kill a Merlin with small Neutrons though, since Barrage is quite horrible vs shields. It may be that it's better to shoot RF EMP S and maybe stick a bit closer but outside, say, Void / CN AM effective range... worth running the numbers and trying to figure out is there any range where you're actually superior to one.
Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#35 - 2012-07-18 18:38:33 UTC
Sovai Elaaren wrote:
Traejun DiSanctis wrote:

Not sure about the Rocket Launcher - I'd go 3x 200mm and an RoF mod in the lows in place of the DC. I'm not a fan of armor reppers on Rifters, but that's a personal choice.


What would you use other than 3x 200mm and a rocket launcher? You won't be in range for nos/neut unless you're using deadspace.

As for the DC, you're right, you could drop it for a Gyro or a TE for much better damage projection, but you'd probably be in trouble if the fight doesn't start at range.


Nos/Neut is exactly what I use for the 4th high slot.
Sovai Elaaren
KABS Deep Recon Unit
#36 - 2012-07-18 19:33:17 UTC
Cpt Branko wrote:
Who's pulling the 2007 Rifter fits out of the graveyard? Big smile

This *could* work. Not sure if it is enough to actually kill a Merlin with small Neutrons though, since Barrage is quite horrible vs shields. It may be that it's better to shoot RF EMP S and maybe stick a bit closer but outside, say, Void / CN AM effective range... worth running the numbers and trying to figure out is there any range where you're actually superior to one.


Well, le EFT DPS graph has barrage hitting harder at that range despite the fact it's against a higher resist, but I really need to try it to see if it'd work in practice. I have my doubts vs. a merlin as well, but I think it has a chance. WTB good Merlin pilot! Smile

Traejun DiSanctis wrote:

Nos/Neut is exactly what I use for the 4th high slot.


For what I am wanting to try, I think the rocket launcher is better, just due to the range of neut/nos (and I'm not willing to put on a deadspace nos for kiting purposes). However, if I was going to go balls-deep instead, I'd probably opt for a neut/nos as well. Especially against something like an Incursus.
Solaris Ecladia
Mostly Sober
Aggressively Average
#37 - 2012-07-18 19:57:23 UTC
Personally, I have never seen the value in AC rifter fits. Autocannons have such a short range that it puts you in that hellish nightmare of webs and death. Toss some artillery on it and kite your prey. always have done this and always had success.

Idiots now in their blaster merlins try to get in close and orbit you, boat out to 15k and snipe them to death. Use your ships speed and fitting ability to its advantage.
Cpt Branko
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2012-07-18 21:24:34 UTC
Solaris Ecladia wrote:
Personally, I have never seen the value in AC rifter fits. Autocannons have such a short range that it puts you in that hellish nightmare of webs and death. Toss some artillery on it and kite your prey. always have done this and always had success.


Eh, maybe worth a try. Although, artillery is a pain to fit on a Rifter, and powering a MWD and long point is an extra problem. I prefer Thrashers for my small artillery fix.
Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#39 - 2012-07-18 22:04:26 UTC
Cpt Branko wrote:
Solaris Ecladia wrote:
Personally, I have never seen the value in AC rifter fits. Autocannons have such a short range that it puts you in that hellish nightmare of webs and death. Toss some artillery on it and kite your prey. always have done this and always had success.


Eh, maybe worth a try. Although, artillery is a pain to fit on a Rifter, and powering a MWD and long point is an extra problem. I prefer Thrashers for my small artillery fix.


^what this guy said... write that **** down.
Klown Walk
Black Rebel Rifter Club
The Devil's Tattoo
#40 - 2012-07-18 22:28:04 UTC
[Rifter, New Setup 1 copy 1]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Co-Processor I

Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Experimental 1MN Afterburner I
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I

200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Rocket

Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Projectile Burst Aerator I

Less tank but more dps. Does 210 dps with heat and it can be changed to use mwd if you downgrade the guns, still does 202 dps tho.

[Punisher, New Setup 2]
Pseudoelectron Containment Field I
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I
Heat Sink II

Experimental 10MN Afterburner I
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I

Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S
Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S
Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S
[empty high slot]

Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Energy Burst Aerator I
Small Auxiliary Thrusters I

Pointless fit but I was bored, goes over 3200 m/s with heat.
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