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Is CrimeWatch vaporware?

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Tyranis Marcus
Bloody Heathens
#401 - 2012-07-17 21:13:33 UTC
Disregard That wrote:
Tyranis Marcus wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Ok, so.

Here is the presentation from Fanfest, which you should watch if you're curious about this stuff and you haven't seen it already.

We had a discussion this morning about the specific case of people RRing vigilantes. We're currently considering treating it like all other "neutral RR" situations under the new system, ie suspect-flagging you if you RR a vigilante, as this seems to iron out a lot of the wrinkles here and makes it more consistent with the rest of the design.

We want to be clear at the same time, though, that getting a suspect flag is a punishment for doing something "bad". As with the current system of killrights etc, it's not intended as a tool that you can abuse to do further "bad" things with impunity, and while we're generally OK with people abusing some of the loopholes in the design and/or UI presentation to use such systems for unintended purposes, the design intent is for suspect flagging to be something that you want to avoid or at the very least treat as a drawback, not an opportunity. If you find yourself saying "but then if I get a suspect flag, I'm at a disadvantage!", you should consider that this is likely intentional. This is EVE: we permit you to do whatever you please, but we mandate negative consequences for some actions, to encourage a generally healthy player ecosystem.

As to can-flipping in particular, this is something that we assume will become largely ineffective with the "safeties" system, which should hopefully lessen the usability issues which are at the root of this gimmick. People losing out because they made a bad decision is great. People losing out because they didn't fully understand the decision they were making is not ideal. We realize that, for people who've dedicated a portion of their careers to "hisec PvP" of this particular stripe, this will be disruptive to their play experience, but given that there are plenty of other forms of PvP available (many of which incidentally end up generating a much stronger net contribution to the game), we're confident that such players are more than capable of transitioning rapidly to other, more robustly-supported occupations.


Meh. Why not let vigilantes have safe remote reps? It's worth it for the griefer tears, alone. There's a difference between having a dangerous game world, and just plain coddling bullies and griefers. Also, anyone who left Eve over that would undoubtedly be improving the community by doing so.

Don't get me wrong, I've done a little can flipping and ganking here and there, but if you're going to break the law you shouldn't expect the result to be a fair fight. You should be expect to be out-manned, out-gunned and on the run, just like a real life criminal. Well, for 24 hours or so, at least.

The people crying here just want to shoot fish in a barrel. Well, they should be the fish...

Your arms are crossed smugly and only four people like you. Looks like you are the fish.

Also it kind of looks to me like you're qq'ing about a mean community and then posting how you, too, were a can-flipper and a ganker.

I think there are hotlines for identity crisis.

"You are not a fish, you are a man. You walk around on two legs.

Homo Erectus.

Did I say Homo?"
-Kenny, Half Baked


Can't stand the thought of criminal activity actually being dangerous for the criminal can you?

Do not run. We are your friends.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#402 - 2012-07-17 21:19:09 UTC
Ohh Yeah wrote:
You seem to believe the notion that only suspects will be griefers. If you're looking to grief, being a vigilante and abusing invincible logi seems like the way to go.
…too bad that there won't be any invincible logis.

Quote:
They have since stated that they will resolve this problem by flagging anyone assisting a vigilante as a criminal. You helped a crimefighter fight crime? You're a criminal, enjoy getting shot by the rest of EVE.
Good news: you'll be able to help a crimefighter fight crime without being flagged a suspect. People have already begun figuring out how to take advantage of this new system, just as predicted.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#403 - 2012-07-17 21:37:05 UTC
Quote:
People losing out because they made a bad decision is great. People losing out because they didn't fully understand the decision they were making is not ideal. We realize that, for people who've dedicated a portion of their careers to "hisec PvP" of this particular stripe, this will be disruptive to their play experience, but given that there are plenty of other forms of PvP available (many of which incidentally end up generating a much stronger net contribution to the game), we're confident that such players are more than capable of transitioning rapidly to other, more robustly-supported occupations.


I feel insulted.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#404 - 2012-07-17 21:39:28 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Good news: you'll be able to help a crimefighter fight crime without being flagged a suspect. People have already begun figuring out how to take advantage of this new system, just as predicted.


I don't see any change regarding how it is today ...
Tyranis Marcus
Bloody Heathens
#405 - 2012-07-17 21:49:06 UTC
Price Check Aisle3 wrote:
Furthermore, if I'm stealing **** I've likely got a cargohold full of stuff that I'll eventually want to sell and I'm not particularly looking forward to "surprisesecks".



Neither was the guy you got that cargohold full of **** from. That's kind of the point.

Do not run. We are your friends.
Price Check Aisle3
#406 - 2012-07-17 21:55:15 UTC
Tyranis Marcus wrote:
Neither was the guy you got that cargohold full of **** from. That's kind of the point.

So you think an appropriate punishment for me stealing something is everyone being able to shoot me? If I steal like a few little bits of mission goo I should potentially lose my ship?

Sounds like maybe CCP is taking a very dim (or extremely simplistic) view of crime.
  • Karl Hobb IATS
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#407 - 2012-07-17 22:07:17 UTC
Price Check Aisle3 wrote:
If I steal like a few little bits of mission goo I should potentially lose my ship?
You already run that risk.
Price Check Aisle3
#408 - 2012-07-17 22:17:59 UTC
Tippia wrote:
You already run that risk.

From the person I stole the stuff from.
  • Karl Hobb IATS
Disregard That
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#409 - 2012-07-17 22:29:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Disregard That
Price Check Aisle3 wrote:
Tippia wrote:
You already run that risk.

From the person I stole the stuff from.

I like how Greyscale's solution is to give the Crimewatch RR the same status as the criminal.

Not very many people are going to want to rep Crimewatchers now, either!

Yay criminals are really going to pay! Especially Crimewatch logi! Roll

[Edit]
It really doesn't pay to be the neighborhood watch! Cool
[/Edit]
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#410 - 2012-07-17 22:45:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Gogela
I really would not get too bent out of shape about anything being discussed right now. I mean, in one day CCP Greyscale went from 'remote neutral reppers can do so without consequence' to 'neut-Logis get flagged as criminals for repping anything with a flag'... I mean... that's kind of a big deal and nobody really thought about it apparently. MAYBE Crimewatch isn't vaporware. ...but it's not even in pre-alpha yet. I don't think they are very far along on this thing. I'm starting to think this isn't coming w/ the winter expansion. Maybe in a year or so. Que sera sera. I'd just take it down a notch before I started biomassing toons and shooting at monuments over a bar napkin with scribbles on it.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Price Check Aisle3
#411 - 2012-07-17 22:46:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Price Check Aisle3
Disregard That wrote:
I like how Greyscale's solution is to give the Crimewatch RR the same status as the criminal.

Greyscale's solution seems to be "whatever's easiest to program", which isn't always the best approach.
  • Karl Hobb IATS
Arienne Deveraux
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#412 - 2012-07-17 22:48:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Arienne Deveraux
The entire classification of pilots into "criminal" and "vigilante" categories is wildly misguided and ill-fit in the EVE universe.

The mechanics of punishing transgressions (I am specifially not using the word "crime", as it carries certain implications) against an individual pilot, such as can-flipping or loot stealing, already exist. Thieves become valid targets for the victim's entire corporation. There is absolutely no need - or benefit - to allow a third party to become involved in what is essentially an ownership dispute between two parties.

Note that stealing from a player has absolutely no reason to flag the thief for aggression by anyone else other than the parties involved, that is the theft victim and their corporation (or perhaps extend retailation rights to the whole alliance).

Your corp won't help you fight thieves? Find one that will.

This whole concept of stealing being "bad" globally, as opposed to being "bad" only from the victim's perspective is a scary precedent to make for further development of high-sec gameplay.

Aggression propagation should continue being transferred as already in place with current aggression mechanics; assisting (through remote repair or remote boosts) should carry the same penalties as actually committing aggressive acts against another player, including inability to dock or jump 60 seconds after de-aggressing or ceasing assistance. In other words, assisting a shooter should carry identical consequences as actually shooting. I don't understand how anyone can believe that untouchable Logistic ships are a good idea.

Stealing is not, and never should be, a globally condemned action. EVE has always been about moral ambiguity. Changing this without a very compelling reason breaks one of the most applealing aspects of the game.
Tyranis Marcus
Bloody Heathens
#413 - 2012-07-17 22:56:57 UTC
Guttripper wrote:
because brand wet behind the ears and clueless about the world newbie got all excited at some ad that he can control the whole universe and getting smacked in the snot box might send him to go crying to his momma


Hahaha. Dude. That just made my day.

Do not run. We are your friends.
Forum Foreplay
#414 - 2012-07-17 23:10:10 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
First part of the rework shipped in Escalation, so no, not vaporware. That stage was all behind-the-scenes (as detailed in the presentation at Fanfest, which is on Youtube somewhere); the next step is to start implementing the redesign.

Also, the current design explicitly allows you to return fire in all cases Smile


Stand Your Ground is in effect P

Even a sandbox has borders to keep the sand inside...
Pipa Porto
#415 - 2012-07-18 00:37:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Tippia wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
[Fair enough, but unless the Cyno's already lit, and the JF is really on the ball about jumping out, it's getting tackled by the insta-lock support (insta-lock for a JF is what, 0 SEBOs on a Frig?), and now we have a situation where that Frig escorting the freighter has to be suicided (or, for poops and giggles, the instalock Damnation). Who wants to try to Suicide a 720k EHP Damnation before he can shout "Free JF Kill" in Local?

(Oh, and as if the JF kill weren't enough, you get all the Logi trying to save it)
Yes, it's a bit OTT for what should be a simple gank. I suppose that, if it's rich enough, you could just try a sacrifice-freighter kind of tactic.

Freighter 1 scoops everything, gets flaggad and (possibly) blown up. Freighter 2 swoops in, has legal rights to take the loot (being in the same corp or using high enough standing, should they retain that mechanic) and flies off without any flags. It brings the investment down from 21bn to just 1–2, if that's any consolation.

But then we're looking at someone hauling 8bn+ just to break even (2bn in ship losses, requires 4bn to drop from the thief freighter, requires 8bn to drop from the gank target, and I probably underestimated that loss cost).


Like I said, Stealth Nerf to Suicide Ganks (a big 'un, too). And if it only took me a day or two to notice this, what other not immediately obvious problems will crop up when this hits TQ?

My biggest problem with the Suspect flag is that it lacks finesse. I don't see why, for the first time, petty theft should brand you an outlaw. Afterall, you're stealing from someone's trash. And if it's such a big crime that it's worth stripping you of police protection from everyone, why doesn't it come with Sec status loss? Beyond that, I don't find the current system particularly confusing, and what confusion exists could be fixed with a couple popups.

I think that a Suspect flag for certain crimes is a good idea (though I'm not sure what crimes would be lumped where, maybe for Neut RR for wars?), just not for every crime.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Ohh Yeah
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#416 - 2012-07-18 01:43:19 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
[
I think that a Suspect flag for certain crimes is a good idea (though I'm not sure what crimes would be lumped where, maybe for Neut RR for wars?), just not for every crime.


Suspect flag is an effective solution for handling low-sec. Let people shoot neutrals in low-sec and only get suspect flags rather than tank their sec status. Only hit them with GCC for podding or something.

Might get more people to fight in low-sec
Pipa Porto
#417 - 2012-07-18 02:27:41 UTC
Ohh Yeah wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
[
I think that a Suspect flag for certain crimes is a good idea (though I'm not sure what crimes would be lumped where, maybe for Neut RR for wars?), just not for every crime.


Suspect flag is an effective solution for handling low-sec. Let people shoot neutrals in low-sec and only get suspect flags rather than tank their sec status. Only hit them with GCC for podding or something.

Might get more people to fight in low-sec


A [-10.0] Member proposing to make it harder to go -10? P

I think a Global Suspect flagging might be a good fit for Lowsec, and maybe Neut RR in Wardecs (maybe, I don't know), and maybe some other things.

It just really doesn't sit right with me for theft. I just think property crime should be handled by the involved parties.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
#418 - 2012-07-18 07:57:58 UTC
I want to know how this thread became a lets bash CCP thread...
Eve forums official anthem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA Real men tank hull. Fake women shield-tank Gallente.
Pipa Porto
#419 - 2012-07-18 08:03:45 UTC
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
I want to know how this thread became a lets bash CCP thread...


Tysinger likes doing that. Roll

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#420 - 2012-07-18 09:40:03 UTC
Arienne Deveraux wrote:


This whole concept of stealing being "bad" globally, as opposed to being "bad" only from the victim's perspective is a scary precedent to make for further development of high-sec gameplay.


A member of a professional criminal organization like Suddenly Ninjas is against being labeled a criminal for their criminal actions? Who would've thunk it!

I don't think there is anything scary about broadening the scope of retaliation for crimes for anyone but the criminals. HTFU?

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.