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Mr Bushar's Bond Run #1: 10M bonds, 30d, 15% interest (DONE, REPAID)

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Kailean
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#61 - 2012-07-17 19:11:45 UTC
Did we ever figure out if new characters start with 5,000 isk or not? If it is as someone said, that alts get an inheritance of 5,000 isk, it would mean that Mr Bushar is an alt.
Mr Bushar
Doomheim
#62 - 2012-07-17 19:13:45 UTC
Kailean wrote:
Did we ever figure out if new characters start with 5,000 isk or not? If it is as someone said, that alts get an inheritance of 5,000 isk, it would mean that Mr Bushar is an alt.



Feel free to check for yourself.
I received a 21 day invitation from my friend, created this account, and this is my only character.
Kailean
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#63 - 2012-07-17 19:15:36 UTC
That would require effort, something I'm averse to. At least when it's something as trivial as this.
Mr Bushar
Doomheim
#64 - 2012-07-17 19:16:47 UTC
Kailean wrote:
That would require effort, something I'm averse to. At least when it's something as trivial as this.


http://i.imgur.com/VFPef.png

Good potential catch though, you'd be a good auditor.
Mr Bushar
Doomheim
#65 - 2012-07-17 19:25:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Bushar
http://i.imgur.com/tN27q.png?1

Don't know what else I can do at the moment
One alternative would be providing real money collateral to a trustworthy person here, which I would be willing to do.


I do encourage you to invest, even if only 10M, to see that this is the real deal.
There is no need to earn 5% on bonds when you could be earning 15%.
Why do I offer 15%? because I earn one of the best returns here (nothing like Rykker or Firefly, though), and I can afford to do it and still make money at the end of the day.

Debt is all about making money using someone else's money.
If I can earn more than 15% on your money, and you have no use for it except it sitting in your wallet, it's a win-win situation.
CorInaXeraL
The Dresdeneers
#66 - 2012-07-17 19:53:47 UTC  |  Edited by: CorInaXeraL
THAT is what's 'off' here.

Mr. Bushar.
Created, by his own screenshot, 13July2012.
Brand new toon, brand new member of a 3-man corp obviously opened by someone who was tired of being with other people.

Myron Gainez

Quote:
Full API key needed, like someone cant just get alt char on a diff account.. idiot CEOs.

Having better game. Keeping all the ISK. doing whatever I want. My rules, my game.


Disgruntled readily comes to mind. The other toons are Ms. Eva Bears, a 3-day member created on the 9th of July, and the corp founder Shadowfoot, who started the corp up 4 days ago...

Two transactions raise red flags immediately, both visible on the screenshot provided by Bushar.

Money stuffs

A player donation of 430m and a pull from a corp wallet. NO disgruntled, 2007-old, former recruiter would ever give someone who's only been alive since the 13th wallet access without having serious issues. This screams of Shadowfoot's alt, created via trial-account and unleashed on the populace to shrink IQs everywhere.

Thought something smelled funny.

To take nothing and turn it into 3.5b in 3 days is recockulous, Mr. Bushar.... Please get out of MD.


Edit: Also, what's up with this?
David Forge
GameOn Inc.
#67 - 2012-07-17 19:58:47 UTC
Real money collateral, on top of being insane, probably is on shaky ground EULA-wise. This has really cascaded into quite the disaster, no hard feelings. It's so convoluted I really can't tell if you did a bad job at scamming, a bad job at being honest, or maybe this whole thing was a fantastic scam (so scammy looking it can't be a scam) that just didn't take off. I'm tempted to pay for the audit myself just to know.
Mr Bushar
Doomheim
#68 - 2012-07-17 20:05:29 UTC
CorInaXeraL wrote:


To take nothing and turn it into 3.5b in 3 days is recockulous, Mr. Bushar.... Please get out of MD.



To take 500M, 100 of which was given to me by my real life best friend as a gift, and 400 in a loan, and turn it into a 3.5B turnover is indeed quite a feat. I recognize that, and will take it as a compliment :)

Shadowfoot is the one who invited me to EvE online. We have been best friends for many years.
We are in the same corporation because we play together, and in the future will operate a 0.0 base and grow.

I also linked him to this post.
I also recognize that failing to repay a loan would tarnish his reputation due to the link people would make between us, as you obviously just did, and would never do that to him.

I never hid the fact that my best friend recruited me to the game. Been saying that since post #1.

Shadowfoot
Doomheim
#69 - 2012-07-17 20:05:30 UTC
CorInaXeraL wrote:
THAT is what's 'off' here.

Mr. Bushar.
Created, by his own screenshot, 13July2012.
Brand new toon, brand new member of a 3-man corp obviously opened by someone who was tired of being with other people.

Myron Gainez

Quote:
Full API key needed, like someone cant just get alt char on a diff account.. idiot CEOs.

Having better game. Keeping all the ISK. doing whatever I want. My rules, my game.


Disgruntled readily comes to mind. The other toons are Ms. Eva Bears, a 3-day member created on the 9th of July, and the corp founder Shadowfoot, who started the corp up 4 days ago...

Two transactions raise red flags immediately, both visible on the screenshot provided by Bushar.

Money stuffs

A player donation of 430m and a pull from a corp wallet. NO disgruntled, 2007-old, former recruiter would ever give someone who's only been alive since the 13th wallet access without having serious issues. This screams of Shadowfoot's alt, created via trial-account and unleashed on the populace to shrink IQs everywhere.

Thought something smelled funny.

To take nothing and turn it into 3.5b in 3 days is recockulous, Mr. Bushar.... Please get out of MD.


Edit: Also, what's up with this?



Hello. my friends IRL name is not Bushar or anything that sounds like it. We were friends since 2003. He joined my corp because what other corp to join? We do not want to be bossed around by CEO wannabes or people who are power hungry beta losers. look at all the big alliances and corps, they have power in eve, but in RL they are begging me to get hired as a telemarketers. enough said.
Mr Bushar
Doomheim
#70 - 2012-07-17 20:13:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Bushar
CorInaXeraL wrote:


Two transactions raise red flags immediately, both visible on the screenshot provided by Bushar.

Money stuffs

A player donation of 430m and a pull from a corp wallet. NO disgruntled, 2007-old, former recruiter would ever give someone who's only been alive since the 13th wallet access without having serious issues. This screams of Shadowfoot's alt, created via trial-account and unleashed on the populace to shrink IQs everywhere.

Thought something smelled funny.


I also want to clarify the lines in the cash flow statement by EveHQ, as they seem unclear:

Player Donations: These are direct wire transfers. 400M was my friend's loan, 30M was another investor.
Absolutely nothing suspicious here, 100% consistent with what I've always said

Wallet Transaction from Corporation: 100M was the gift, and that is the way my friend gave me the money. We have 100% trust with each other due to being best friends, and the corp wallet is empty now anyways, it's a small friends corp.

Nothing inconsistent with my posts.

EDIT: We are prepared, RIGHT NOW, to go on a teamspeak server of your choice.
Right now.
Unless I can emulate two people speaking to you at the same time, we're not alts
David Forge
GameOn Inc.
#71 - 2012-07-17 20:28:13 UTC  |  Edited by: David Forge
Because you could not possibly have a brother or a friend or maybe a headset duct taped to a PC with Microsoft Sam. You've dug so deep and been so unwilling to conform to the norms of MD that there's little you can do to recover this situation. I don't say that as a troll and I don't say that as someone who bears any particular ill will towards you. Just one guy to another, you sort of screwed this up. If you are honest and just going about this poorly, and I believe that that is very likely, I'm really sorry for you.
ABRACADABSTRACTART
Doomheim
#72 - 2012-07-17 20:41:08 UTC
Mr Bushar wrote:
ABRACADABSTRACTART wrote:
See? What did I tell you? Don't poke them with sticks. You do realize you're going to have to start over with another character? It will be mercilessly hounded as well, since it will be too young.

Better luck next time.



Unfortunately, my existence is poking everyone with sticks right now.
What's the chance that a new character offering 15% returns is not a scam? Not very high, I agree.

But I do not think any of this is personal, and I believe people will eventually start investing in 15% return bonds when the rest of the market offers 5 to 10. I have no hard feelings for anyone here.

I am not going to start over with another character because I do not, and will not, have another character.

My reputation is not tarnished, I have never missed a loan payment.
What we're seeing right now is healthy skepticism, which will fade with time.

No. What's going to happen is that whatever plan you've got for 15% return will be mercilessly broken down into its component financial parts and revealed to be, at best, wishful thinking on your part.

The issue here was never the offering; people just have to accept that audits are essentially worthless and all uncollateralized bonds/loans are nothing more than bets. Some of the most closely examined offerings eventually turned into scams (or thefts to be more accurate). Look at people like Bad Bobby (if you haven't researched him, you should. entertaining and educational stuff), Cosmoray, E Bank and on and on.

The issue is how you're managing your communications. You should never have posted an anti-audit thread along with your offering. Too late for that now. Once attacked though, your best bet was to adopt a "its a bet, but i'm a good guy" strategy and clamped down in this thread. Don't feed the trolls. A simple, "I understand your concerns but there is little I can do about it, hey look at all these other uncollateralized/unaudited loans that other people are doing. If you want to get in on it, great, if you have real questions great, otherwise I'm not answering you." Stay calm, cool, collected. Rationalizations, defensiveness, or even the appearance of those things draws these guys like flies. Any chain of logic or math will definitely be critiqued. If you're lying about a fact that could be verified, you can be almost certain that someone is checking it out.

If you are a scammer, you want to take the rep grind route by borrowing sums people are willing to risk and building that up over time. There are many investors who will take a chance on a new guy, figuring that if he is a scammer, he won't cash out on the first offering.

Who knows, maybe it will all blow over. But the last time someone offered absurdly high rates of return, I think the thread went into 20 some pages. It didn't end well.
CorInaXeraL
The Dresdeneers
#73 - 2012-07-17 20:44:49 UTC
Right now, the only way I see anyone jumping on-board would be through use of a collateralized loan/bond.

Stirring up the hornet's nest with the anti-auditing post, then the surge of numbers listed through screenshots but without releasing your API to verify them, the peculiar transactions that MAY or MAY NOT be due to RL friendship, etc, all cause way too much doubt to creep in and dissuade anyone from taking the 15%-possible-return.

The request was handled poorly and, in truth, you might have had better luck having Shadowfoot request the bond on your behalf. But there's simply too many questions.

I'd be tempted to take you up on the TS offer, but then again, the rational side of me says that it's not difficult for someone to pass a mic to another person, or do any of the other things David mentioned in his retort.

Collateralized is your only bet, and even then you'd be expected to match it ISK for ISK, I imagine. Otherwise, it all falls into the 'too good to be true' category at this point.

If you are capping at 2bil, I would say invest in PLEX, pass them to a 3rd party / collateral holder that MD trusts to cover potential loss / risks and request your loan, build from there.
Darth Tickles
Doomheim
#74 - 2012-07-17 20:50:12 UTC
ABRACADABSTRACTART wrote:
Look at people like Bad Bobby (if you haven't researched him, you should. entertaining and educational stuff), Cosmoray, E Bank and on and on.


None of those were closely examined. rofl

What the big scams have in common is "institutionalization". The scammers got to the point of being accepted and legitimized by those considered trustworthy, such that the normal checks and balances became lax, at which point they struck. The downside is they had to be perceived and act as members of that terrible community, though if they enjoyed the long con for its own sake, that may have brought them solace in their darkest hours before the big cash-in.

Fortunately, enough big scams have happened that this sort of "institutionalization" is all but impossible, as there really is little left of an "MD investment community", just a few hangers-on and a LOT of sad-ass latecoming scammers, like this one, who heard about investment scamming and wanted to get the notch on their belt.

Again, I'm not defending auditing at all, just pointing out a false claim and providing some correct insight to the subject in question.
ABRACADABSTRACTART
Doomheim
#75 - 2012-07-17 21:02:30 UTC
Darth Tickles wrote:
ABRACADABSTRACTART wrote:
Look at people like Bad Bobby (if you haven't researched him, you should. entertaining and educational stuff), Cosmoray, E Bank and on and on.


None of those were closely examined. rofl

they definitely were (not sure about cosmo tbh) but the others setup all sorts of mechanisms to control things. For all the good it did.
Mr Bushar
Doomheim
#76 - 2012-07-17 21:04:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Bushar
ABRACADABSTRACTART wrote:
Mr Bushar wrote:
ABRACADABSTRACTART wrote:
See? What did I tell you? Don't poke them with sticks. You do realize you're going to have to start over with another character? It will be mercilessly hounded as well, since it will be too young.

Better luck next time.



Unfortunately, my existence is poking everyone with sticks right now.
What's the chance that a new character offering 15% returns is not a scam? Not very high, I agree.

But I do not think any of this is personal, and I believe people will eventually start investing in 15% return bonds when the rest of the market offers 5 to 10. I have no hard feelings for anyone here.

I am not going to start over with another character because I do not, and will not, have another character.

My reputation is not tarnished, I have never missed a loan payment.
What we're seeing right now is healthy skepticism, which will fade with time.

No. What's going to happen is that whatever plan you've got for 15% return will be mercilessly broken down into its component financial parts and revealed to be, at best, wishful thinking on your part.

The issue here was never the offering; people just have to accept that audits are essentially worthless and all uncollateralized bonds/loans are nothing more than bets. Some of the most closely examined offerings eventually turned into scams (or thefts to be more accurate). Look at people like Bad Bobby (if you haven't researched him, you should. entertaining and educational stuff), Cosmoray, E Bank and on and on.

The issue is how you're managing your communications. You should never have posted an anti-audit thread along with your offering. Too late for that now. Once attacked though, your best bet was to adopt a "its a bet, but i'm a good guy" strategy and clamped down in this thread. Don't feed the trolls. A simple, "I understand your concerns but there is little I can do about it, hey look at all these other uncollateralized/unaudited loans that other people are doing. If you want to get in on it, great, if you have real questions great, otherwise I'm not answering you." Stay calm, cool, collected. Rationalizations, defensiveness, or even the appearance of those things draws these guys like flies. Any chain of logic or math will definitely be critiqued. If you're lying about a fact that could be verified, you can be almost certain that someone is checking it out.

If you are a scammer, you want to take the rep grind route by borrowing sums people are willing to risk and building that up over time. There are many investors who will take a chance on a new guy, figuring that if he is a scammer, he won't cash out on the first offering.

Who knows, maybe it will all blow over. But the last time someone offered absurdly high rates of return, I think the thread went into 20 some pages. It didn't end well.


The calm, understanding guy approach has been my approach all through out except for blatant trolls.
Look through my responses here with an objective point of view - I have never, even once, disregarded the high level of risk of this bond.

Ignoring the trolls' existence, such as Darth Tickles, is something I'm definitely going to do though.
Thanks for the advice :)
Darth Tickles
Doomheim
#77 - 2012-07-17 21:08:27 UTC
ABRACADABSTRACTART wrote:
they definitely were (not sure about cosmo tbh) but the others setup all sorts of mechanisms to control things. For all the good it did.


None of them were audited.

The only "controls" were for T4U, which were the exact kind of "institutionalization" I was talking about where he had five "respected" community members lock his shares down. He bided his time until they became lax and too trusting, and then he struck.

That said, auditing would have done little to nothing either way, because afaik he was legitimately running an enormously successful Titan BPC business, which he continued to do even after the scam.

Please though, continue to challenge my knowledge of MD history with your own. It's most amusing.
Mr Bushar
Doomheim
#78 - 2012-07-17 21:08:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Bushar
CorInaXeraL wrote:
Right now, the only way I see anyone jumping on-board would be through use of a collateralized loan/bond.

Stirring up the hornet's nest with the anti-auditing post, then the surge of numbers listed through screenshots but without releasing your API to verify them, the peculiar transactions that MAY or MAY NOT be due to RL friendship, etc, all cause way too much doubt to creep in and dissuade anyone from taking the 15%-possible-return.

The request was handled poorly and, in truth, you might have had better luck having Shadowfoot request the bond on your behalf. But there's simply too many questions.

I'd be tempted to take you up on the TS offer, but then again, the rational side of me says that it's not difficult for someone to pass a mic to another person, or do any of the other things David mentioned in his retort.

Collateralized is your only bet, and even then you'd be expected to match it ISK for ISK, I imagine. Otherwise, it all falls into the 'too good to be true' category at this point.

If you are capping at 2bil, I would say invest in PLEX, pass them to a 3rd party / collateral holder that MD trusts to cover potential loss / risks and request your loan, build from there.



Thanks for the good advice, it appears to be that collateralization may be the only choice.

I do not want to purchase PLEX for money, because I never intend to spend money again on the game (I'm earning enough to buy my own PLEX with isk)
Purchasing PLEX isk for isk would make no sense either, because then what's the point of raising capital? I'm paying and getting the same amount, except now I'm paying interest on it

Do you have any other ideas for collateralization?


EDIT: I am not Shadowfoot, and I don't have a brother to bring to TS with me.
I do have friends though, so I guess I could bring one to TS to scam people for 10M bonds?
I mean, I've done almost all that I can to prove to everyone that this is a legit offering.

Proposing this bond on Shadowfoot, although would give more credibility, would make no sense, because he's not the one offering the bond and I don't have access to his account anyways.
CorInaXeraL
The Dresdeneers
#79 - 2012-07-17 21:17:24 UTC
Mr Bushar wrote:
CorInaXeraL wrote:
Right now, the only way I see anyone jumping on-board would be through use of a collateralized loan/bond.

Stirring up the hornet's nest with the anti-auditing post, then the surge of numbers listed through screenshots but without releasing your API to verify them, the peculiar transactions that MAY or MAY NOT be due to RL friendship, etc, all cause way too much doubt to creep in and dissuade anyone from taking the 15%-possible-return.

The request was handled poorly and, in truth, you might have had better luck having Shadowfoot request the bond on your behalf. But there's simply too many questions.

I'd be tempted to take you up on the TS offer, but then again, the rational side of me says that it's not difficult for someone to pass a mic to another person, or do any of the other things David mentioned in his retort.

Collateralized is your only bet, and even then you'd be expected to match it ISK for ISK, I imagine. Otherwise, it all falls into the 'too good to be true' category at this point.

If you are capping at 2bil, I would say invest in PLEX, pass them to a 3rd party / collateral holder that MD trusts to cover potential loss / risks and request your loan, build from there.



Thanks for the good advice, it appears to be that collateralization may be the only choice.

I do not want to purchase PLEX for money, because I never intend to spend money again on the game (I'm earning enough to buy my own PLEX with isk)
Purchasing PLEX isk for isk would make no sense either, because then what's the point of raising capital? I'm paying and getting the same amount, except now I'm paying interest on it

Do you have any other ideas for collateralization?





I've never worked directly with collateral, but asking someone who has (i.e. VV) would probably go a long way to helping figure that one out. Likewise, I would close out this request, do some further research, open up the doors for those audits you are so strongly against, and revamp your business plan.

The other red-flag not yet mentioned is the rep-grind flag. You have stated that you want loyal investors through high returns, but the current investment amount is small-fries for you due to your current wallet. All that tells potential investors is that you intend to do as others have before. Build up rep, then swing the doors shut and walk off once the incoming investments hit a certain peak. Maybe not this run, but a few down the road.

The collateral is not always 100%, either. If Shadowfoot is pointedly on your side for this and willing to help, he might be willing to tie up some assets in collateral so you can get your feet wet and firmly beneath you. Then...when everything clears, he gets it back and the investment is returned, etc.

You've got a pretty big hole here. There are ways out, but they're not going to be quick fixes. What they will be, though, will require a lot of transparency on your end to assuage the MD's current sentiment, including a lot more than API-generated reports sans an audit to verify / validate them.

Are audits foolproof? Nope. Not at all. But in your case it would be a step in the right direction to remedying this whole thing.
Mr Bushar
Doomheim
#80 - 2012-07-17 21:25:54 UTC
CorInaXeraL wrote:

The other red-flag not yet mentioned is the rep-grind flag. You have stated that you want loyal investors through high returns, but the current investment amount is small-fries for you due to your current wallet. All that tells potential investors is that you intend to do as others have before. Build up rep, then swing the doors shut and walk off once the incoming investments hit a certain peak. Maybe not this run, but a few down the road.


This is always a risk, and will always remain a risk unless there is isk-for-isk collateral.
There is no way in the world I can prove to you that I would never do that, even if I wanted to my conscious wouldn't let me.


I'm trying to figure out a way to manage a collateral, but first I am going to research the EULA to see whether real money collateral would be against the rules.


Quite frankly, I don't think I've dug myself into a hole nor have I strayed from social norms in a way that is negative or would cause any financial harm to any investor.

My situation is extremely simple
1. My offer is unique and attractive
2. I do not have anyone's trust, especially being on a new account

That is all it boils down to.
I don't see any way to build trust besides what you'd call a "rep grind" or providing collateral.
In fact, the amount of bonds with absolutely no collateral in here are quite significant, so I would say that with collateral not only would my offer be less risky, but it would be the most attractive offer here.