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Combat Interface and How We Improve New Player Retention
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Garresh

Mackies Raiders

Wild Geese.

Likes received: 346

#21 - 2012-06-30 21:05:08 UTC | Edited by: Garresh

Tarsus Zateki wrote:

What is the continued obsession with player retention and attracting new players? The game has a crap interface, crap mechanics and all sorts of other things that make this a terrible MMO; yet Eve continues to grow in population and has even during the worse periods of its history (*cough* Incarna *cough*).

Its not the interface that makes players want to stay in Eve-Online. Its the fact that its a single shard, heavily player driven MMO with a brutal conflict-centric theme. Development time should be devoted more to improving that. Make it easier for players to keep being the center of attention and Eve will never lack for subscriptions.

I'm not disagreeing there. We do need new content. Actually, I really like that CCP is going back and doing a mass rebalancing of old ships even more than creating new stuff. But still, the driving force behind this isn't increasing the player base from a purely numerical standpoint. I know a lot of people who try to share Eve with their friends/spouse/boytoy and can't get them over that initial hump. Once you get into eve, you're stuck for life, but it's a very difficult game to share with others. I tried to get some friends of mine into Eve 3 years ago. Some of them tried, multiple times, to get into eve and only just now 3 years later have crossed the initial barrier. Some are still struggling with it.

The goal isn't to hook WoW players or steal from other MMOs. The goal is to make it so people who geniunely want to play eve, who are okay with the cold hard dangerous of space, and who are sadistic sociopaths LIKE US can finally cross the initial barrier and join the game that they themselves WANT to play.

I tried to get into Eve once in 2003(I think?). Again in 2006/2007. It wasn't until 2009 that I finally stuck with it, but I really wanted to get into it all the way back at launch. That initial barrier is preventing players who *belong* in Eve from getting into it.

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The Littlest Hobos The Whale Hunters Association 221
Lilan Kahn The Littlest Hobos The Whale Hunters Association Likes received: 221	#22 - 2012-06-30 21:09:40 UTC eve is fine htfu 2003 the tutorial was that a roid mine it, that practice drone shot it congrats your now done. today every thing is explain in great detail.

Soundwave Plays Diablo

Doomheim

Likes received: 144

#23 - 2012-06-30 21:13:59 UTC

Tarsus Zateki wrote:

Its down at least 15000 players according to the information CCP submits to MMOdata. It had 376k+ and is down to 361k currently. It is up from its lowpoint however, which is heading in the right direction.

Its hard not to sound negative on the subject, but your post is rather far from reality. CCP already admitted they have to do everything they can to retain subs.

I am very happy that they are on the right track again, but saying they are infallible is stupid.

Tarsus Zateki

Viziam

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 897

#24 - 2012-06-30 21:16:17 UTC

Did you have difficulty getting into the game because of its terrible interface specifically or because you didn't do anything fun and engaging? I'm not going to assume anything about your Eve playtime instead I'll use a general example and my own experience.

Many people start playing Eve-Online and are presented with a set of tutorials that tell you how to fly around and do things. After completing these tutorials you're pretty much told to go mine or do agent missions and that's that. And that's what so many people end up doing... and burning out in no time flat. Some will stick around for a little longer and maybe join corporations filled with people that mine and do missions. Or join 0.0 renter corporations that mine and kill rats and eventually get run out of their space by someone having more fun in the game.

When I start playing Eve-Online I joined my corporation, well it was Goonfleet back then, and was given a Punisher and a set of skillbooks, pointed at Syndicate and told to go kill myself (in game). When I died I was given a new Punisher and kept getting a new Punisher everytime I killed myself picking fights with people I had no business fighting. Dozens of us would get together and go out and get ourselves killed. Instead of sitting around running missions mindlessly over and over goons would decide to go and do whatever happened to catch our fancy that day even if it was insane... it sort of snowballed. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise, all of our successes have been accidents.

Players have a responsibility to take in newbies and introduce them to the self made content that Eve-Online permits us to create. That's where CCP needs to focus their efforts on. Getting new players to interact with other players from their very first moment in game, instead of having a bot tell them to go interact with other bots. No one will care about the game interface if they're doing insane things all the time instead of staring at a rock or little red crosses.

You asked me once, what was in Room 101. I told you that you knew the answer already. Everyone knows it. The thing that is in Room 101 is the worst thing in the world.

Calamitous-Intent 454
Red Teufel Calamitous-Intent Likes received: 454	#25 - 2012-06-30 21:16:21 UTC eh i don't see the point. you'll get information overload anyways. maybe a better interface to control your ship such as turning but that's about it.


Tarsus Zateki Viziam Amarr Empire Likes received: 897	#26 - 2012-06-30 21:16:37 UTC 1 God damn I think I have issues. You asked me once, what was in Room 101. I told you that you knew the answer already. Everyone knows it. The thing that is in Room 101 is the worst thing in the world.

Pipa Porto

Likes received: 1,548

#27 - 2012-06-30 21:22:04 UTC

Garresh wrote:

Quote:

New players dont need a new UI, they need a good corp. Its no coincidence that most of the nubs who get taken into the goon training programme stay in the game while a lot who join and stay in the NPC corps end up leaving.

That's not a rational counterargument. You're saying that it is okay for Eve to be un-learnable without training. Eve may be a complex game, but it's a fairly logical one. I taught myself most of what I needed. And yes, I joined a corp eventually to fill out the holes in my knowledge, but I've been mostly a solo player since I started. Despite what everyone says about needing a good corp to do anything, I managed just fine on my own for most of my endeavors, and only really joined a corp because I liked the community.

It's not sensible to say you have to group up to do anything, because there's a fuckton of soloists in eve. There's solo PvPer blogs, solo mission runners(shudder), solo explorers and griefers. Hell, the whole reason I joined eve was because I set a personal goal to explore w-space by myself. And 6 months after I signed up, I launched a POS in a class 2 w-space system and ran the whole operation by myself for a little over a year.

Eve isn't a group game. It's a PvP game, and that caters to groups, but it is not a game about grouping. At a fundamental level, everyone in eve knows to trust nobody else. That's a solo mindset at heart.

The guys who figured out in the first place didn't have training, so it's clearly learnable without training. It's just hard to learn, and training sidesteps a lot of that difficulty.

Anyway, have them open the overview settings and add the distance and angular velocity columns. Then have them right click their guns in space, show info and explain that they should make sure they know their best ranges (explain how to figure that out for each weapon type) and their tracking speed, and that they should keep those in mind when looking at their overview.

Being a Soloist is HARD (especially if you're trying to start out as one). That's why it's so impressive. The easiest way to learn about EvE and its mechanics is to join a good corp. It's still possible to learn the same stuff on your own (even possible to figure it out from first principles), but it's much harder. Big surprise. Stuff's harder to learn if nobody's teaching you.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto


Tarsus Zateki Viziam Amarr Empire Likes received: 897	#28 - 2012-06-30 21:25:08 UTC 1 I keep saying that anyone that does the combat tutorials should be given "Join Red vs Blue" as their final mission. Have it give them a 3rd Tier Frigate as the reward. You asked me once, what was in Room 101. I told you that you knew the answer already. Everyone knows it. The thing that is in Room 101 is the worst thing in the world.

Garresh

Mackies Raiders

Wild Geese.

Likes received: 346

#29 - 2012-06-30 21:34:01 UTC

Tarsus Zateki wrote:

The first time: Mining.

The second time: MIssions. But I tried combat and still didn't understand the sheer depth and nuance of a good dogfight.

The third time: NINJA SALVAGING

And I was hooked as soon as I mastered the scan system. But FWIW, this is only one of several suggestions I have on the subject. I figured I'd target the interface first because it touches everyone who plays and, quite frankly, blows. Also, the sheer number of ****** pilots in FW seems to indicate that even old players aren't learning the basics of combat.

But yes I fell for the noob traps of mining and missioning first.

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Akai Kvaesir

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.

Likes received: 125

#30 - 2012-06-30 22:00:42 UTC

baltec1 wrote:

Garresh wrote:

[quote=baltec1]
Except I see players with long combat histories who still can't fly for ****. Besides which, this would just be convenient. The UI doesn't help with the nuances of combat.

Anyways, try to keep from turning into a "shoot players it's good for them" thread. lol.

Everyone else has managed with the UI.

Simply because the current UI is manageable, does not mean it can be better. I refuse to believe that the spaceships we are hardwired into do not have better tactical systems than a grid and a opaque circle.

Frogblast the Vent Core! When the W'rkncacnter came, Pthia was killed, and Yrro in anger, flung the W'rkncacnter into the sun. The sun burned them, but they swam on its surface.

Kimmi Chan

Tastes Like Purple

Likes received: 1,843

#31 - 2012-06-30 22:08:46 UTC

Akai Kvaesir wrote:

baltec1 wrote:

Garresh wrote:

Everyone else has managed with the UI.

Yes. We are immortal. We pilot the most technologically advanced machines in space. We do so with an interface that looks like something that runs on MS-DOS. Roll

"Grr Kimmi Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com Join Eve Radio channel in game!

Soundwave Plays Diablo

Doomheim

Likes received: 144

#32 - 2012-06-30 22:22:21 UTC

Akai Kvaesir wrote:

baltec1 wrote:

Garresh wrote:

Everyone else has managed with the UI.

The problem is it would have a 3d real time interface like the matrix or district 9, which is not currently possible on a PC.


Garresh Mackies Raiders Wild Geese. Likes received: 346	#33 - 2012-07-01 00:52:17 UTC Yeah but they could make the UI look a lot cooler with a few effects without impeding it's usefulness. This Space Intentionally Left Blank

baltec1

Bat Country

Pandemic Horde

Likes received: 19,001

#34 - 2012-07-01 16:46:45 UTC

Garresh wrote:

Quote:

That's not a rational counterargument. You're saying that it is okay for Eve to be un-learnable without training.

At what point did I say EVE is unlearnable?

I managed to learn about EVE all on my loansome long before we got the new tutorials and waay before EVE-Uni and Red vs Blue were around. I didnt even get a free ship just 5000 isk.

Misanth

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE

Likes received: 970

#35 - 2012-07-01 16:54:01 UTC

OP, you see the exact same things in other games.

WoT - people don't get the maps, basic concepts of tactic, don't understand basic game mechanics like how penetration and sloping works, etc.
WoW and other similar fantasy EQ-clones - people don't understand opposing classes without having played them, and many don't understand how certain abilities that usually are 'useless' suddenly becomes useful (see afterburner in EVE PvP for example, situational strength).

The simple answer to your post is that alot of people don't give a ****. They know it's usually better to manual pilot than to orbit, but they are too lazy to bother, and 'usually it works ok anyway'. Plus, they still have fun, so why care? They are happy.

It's just that people like to do things the way they want, and they find it boring/etc to learn basic game mechanics. Many struggle to grasp it too because they simply don't understand simple maths, even tho they try. Others find this extremely easy instead.

TL;DR I don't think you can "save" this game, make it easier for the playerbase, or something similar. It's just a fact you have to live with, and it's definately not only EVE that has it.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.


Garresh Mackies Raiders Wild Geese. Likes received: 346	#36 - 2012-07-01 23:38:09 UTC Givin it a bump. This Space Intentionally Left Blank


Pipa Porto Likes received: 1,548	#37 - 2012-07-02 00:05:35 UTC Garresh wrote: Givin it a bump. This isn't the Bazaar. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone -RubyPorto

Shanija

Confetti Explosion

Likes received: 8

#38 - 2012-07-02 01:08:24 UTC

EVE's UI is criminally bad and I think it absolutely helps put new players off the game.

One thing that's really weird about EVE is when you're a newbie in a Kestrel or a Caracal or something the combat can seem ludicrously simple even though you really have no clue about the game mechanics. You target stuff, press F1 and it blows up after a while. Stuff shoots at you and you probably end up with an inkling that moving away from the stuff can make it do less damage to your ship so that whatever random shield booster you ended up with can cope better.

That's about it, though. Stuff like tracking, signature radius or god forbid explosion velocity is just completely invisible. It's there, and it can affect them, but they don't see it because it's hidden away in the game mechanics and not displayed anywhere other than a damage message that gets swamped in other messages. It's easy for them to think the game is a lot simpler mechanically than it is even though they understand nothing about it.

The UI should display things that are relevant. Right now, the in-space UI displays almost nothing. Even basic things like velocity aren't represented at all without peering at the overview. You should be able to see this stuff by looking at the gamespace. The same goes for things like tracking and missile velocity. Heck, even stuff like "what type of ship is this" isn't displayed well, especially when it comes to player ships.

The UI obviously isn't the main draw of the game, but it should facilitate the other stuff, and it doesn't do that well at all.

It's all very well to say newbies need good corps and good opportunities, but that isn't at odds with the UI being awful - they're both true.

Kevin Gurnhill

Megjallarhorn

Likes received: 6

#39 - 2012-07-17 02:25:32 UTC | Edited by: Kevin Gurnhill

I'd like to give the OP a +1.
Firstly, i dont use the tactical overlay, i did when i first started, but found it obscenely underwhelming and almost useless once i had learned "oh, my guns have an 8km optimal range" theres no need for it, just a quick look in the info tab tells us our range, without having to open up the overlay and look at the bubbles, im sure most players are capable of getting that "8 is smaller than 15 so hes out of my optimal range"

But the tactical overlay does need to be improved.
Although, for people who dont want it - there could be an extra button "Advanced Overlay" or perhaps "Add more information", or hell - even just an option in the esc menu to add the extra information maybe a simple tickbox labelled "Additional Tactical Information".

Or there could be multiple levels of additional information, selectable in its own sub-section with multiple tickboxes
Add Speed to target
Add Direction Indicator

etc, ive been playing eve on and off for the past few years (I came back today actually, after a couple of months break), and i have to say - even though the ui has changed since i started, its still basically the same.

Please CCP, update the Tactical Overlay, i would like to use it again! Big smile

Express Hauler 1,909
Lipbite Express Hauler Likes received: 1,909	#40 - 2012-07-17 02:45:17 UTC This is good idea and relatively simple to do. It will take just 2-4 years to implement.