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What keeps you from PvPing?

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Author
SabotNoob
Doomheim
#141 - 2012-07-12 17:19:20 UTC
Initially it was because I had no ISK to fund it. Now I'm doing fine ISK-wise so I can fund a PvP thing. I don't care about losing my stuff.

Only problem now is that it seems PvP is a very hit or miss thing. I don't want to spend long periods of time looking for targets to shoot at. This is the biggest turn-off. I don't mind losing, or being jumped by fleets and such, just would rather not spend 20 minutes looking for a fight that ends up being won or lost in 30 seconds. I don't know how often this happens, complete noob to PvP.

My other personal reason is that I'm hooked to WoT at the moment and I may let my EVE subscription lapse in September. If I can get into good and regular PvP before then, I may stick around.
Dedra Hall
Order of the Shadow
The Revenant Order
#142 - 2012-07-12 17:35:04 UTC
Well, my main and first toon I made in EVE back in 2008 is a Missioner/Miner.

My PVP experience with him is:
1. 99% of the time I jump from High Sec to Low Sec, I am gate camped and podded. Every damn time...except once. See #2.

2. I was able to get my Hulk into .4 space and get to a belt to mine something different for once. Within 3 minutes, i was podded. I actually convo'd him and said, "Why kill a Hulk? You need us for making ships, so you can PVP against someone whom can fight back!" That logic went no where. He just lol'ed at me...

3. Missioning - One person flew into my area, ninja's some stuff. He turned red of course. So, i checked out his ship. Piece of crap Frigate. So, i started wailing on him. 6 of his buddies came in and melted my face. I didn't know at the time people do that.

So, for me, a lot of it gets down to not knowing mechanics and how to PVP. People will probably say, its not that hard to PVP. PVP is rediculously complicated. PVP to me is not just shooting. I want to actually have a chance to win. Being absolutely destroyed by someone is no fun for me. I know, I know, EVE is open. I get all that.

It would be interesting to make PVP ship based. So, a Frigate can only PVP against another Frigate, etc. It will never happen, but I know more people would get into PVP because it would change your win chance considerably.

ISK is not an issue for me, so I wont expand on that.

Therefore, my PVP experience has been in a PVE toon. So, I made a PVP toon to see how I do. This toon.

I am not afraid to lose items, because I got them once, I can get them again.
Vellen Thoss
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#143 - 2012-07-12 17:39:36 UTC
Dedra Hall wrote:
Well, my main and first toon I made in EVE back in 2008 is a Missioner/Miner.

My PVP experience with him is:
1. 99% of the time I jump from High Sec to Low Sec, I am gate camped and podded. Every damn time...except once. See #2.

2. I was able to get my Hulk into .4 space and get to a belt to mine something different for once. Within 3 minutes, i was podded. I actually convo'd him and said, "Why kill a Hulk? You need us for making ships, so you can PVP against someone whom can fight back!" That logic went no where. He just lol'ed at me...

3. Missioning - One person flew into my area, ninja's some stuff. He turned red of course. So, i checked out his ship. Piece of crap Frigate. So, i started wailing on him. 6 of his buddies came in and melted my face. I didn't know at the time people do that.

So, for me, a lot of it gets down to not knowing mechanics and how to PVP. People will probably say, its not that hard to PVP. PVP is rediculously complicated. PVP to me is not just shooting. I want to actually have a chance to win. Being absolutely destroyed by someone is no fun for me. I know, I know, EVE is open. I get all that.

It would be interesting to make PVP ship based. So, a Frigate can only PVP against another Frigate, etc. It will never happen, but I know more people would get into PVP because it would change your win chance considerably.

ISK is not an issue for me, so I wont expand on that.

Therefore, my PVP experience has been in a PVE toon. So, I made a PVP toon to see how I do. This toon.

I am not afraid to lose items, because I got them once, I can get them again.



Most random pvp encounters revolve around deception or one sided battles (ie combat ship v. hulk) because people dont want to lose. Ever.
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#144 - 2012-07-12 17:57:27 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
1. 500 SP is not enough to fly anything more advanced than a Capsule, let alone fit it. (Spaceship Command 1 + Racial Frigate 1 = 750SP). Exaggeration does not help your point seem reasonable.


True. But admit it, even at 5 mil SP vs 50 mil SP, the 5 mil SP char will be at a distinct disadvantage. At frig level it is not such a big deal, but it will still be palpable. Plus, nothing is stopping the 50 mil SP char from shipping up if he doesn't like the odds, but the 5 mil SP char cannot. He has to run or die. Probably both.

I'll give you an example from just 2 weeks ago. I'm in a frigate, I see another frigate. I chase him. He warps off. Five minutes later he's back in a destroyer. I run, and ship up to destroyer. He comes in a cruiser. I come in a cruiser too. He comes in a T2 cruiser, at which point I have to fold because I don't have the SP yet. See the point? He wins. Not due to player skill, but due to massive SP advantage.

Yes, you could say EVE is slow paced and all that, but bottom line is, if a player has to wait 3-6 months before being competitive ONLY due to SP, not due to player skill, that's a problem.

Now consider how it compares to SKILL based games, as in "player skill", not "character skillpoints". In those games, a newbie would not hesitate to engage a veteran, because a bullet to the head is a bullet to the head. Outdraw, outsmart, outflank - either way even a complete newbie playing for a total of 30 seconds has a solid chance against someone who played for 300 days, if he's good enough. Not so in EVE.

Quote:
2. SP Doesn't matter after a point, and stops being the deciding factor in a fight well before that point.


Yes, yes. All true. But like I said above, you show up in a frigate. He comes back in a cruiser. Because you have 15 mil SP, and he has 50 mil SP. And he has excellent cruiser skills, virtually maxed. Can you take a cruiser in a frigate? Nope. Hence, SP decides the outcome.

So while there's *technically* a sweet spot where *for that hull* you can no longer improve, there's nothing stopping your target from simply shipping up, if he has a massive SP advantage.

Granted, there's another sweet spot beyond which neither of you can improve your ship flying skill, but that takes what, five to six years? Most people seldom have relationships that last that long, never mind a game.

Quote:
3. More importantly, an arena-like 1v1 with identical hulls doesn't represent the reality of EvE at all. Someone with 50k SP can tackle most ships long enough for their friends to come and kill the prey. Someone with some guile and 1m SP can easily kill someone they sneak up on, or someone who brought Rock to the hunter's Paper. Newbies in an MMO are always best off making friends (see: Second "M" in the acronym), EvE is no different.


Translation - cannon fodder.

Now compare that to another MMO, in 95% of which in 3 months or less you are totally combat effective. That is, if you are good enough, you can take anyone 1v1 with an even chance of winning. What's more, in some MMOs, skill is vastly more important than level, class or gear. Good example being Age of Conan, where a good player with a lower level character that is very poorly equipped can do 2v1 or even 3v1 (3 people chain attacking back to back without rest in between) and still win. This is just mathematically impossible in EVE unless the enemy is AFK or braindead.

Quote:
4. Throwing money into the mix also doesn't help your assertion. The counterclaim to "SP doesn't matter" is not "SP and Money matters," though, like SP, money only matters up to a point.


True, but as a general rule SP and money are very closely related. At 1 mil SP, my money making capability was a fraction of what it became at 10 million SP. And at 20-30 million I expect it to be another order of magnitude higher. Point being, at 10 mil SP I can afford to throw away ships that I cannot afford to throw away at 1 mil SP, regardless of my personal skills.

Granted, you could counter that by saying "just buy PLEX and sell for ISK and you can afford anything". But realistically, 99% of new players will NOT fork over another $15 on top of the subscription fee for something they know they will lose anyway, and not (only) because they suck, but because the guy they're fighting has been playing (paying) for years.

Quote:
5. Good God, where did you get the notion that EvE is supposed to be Fair? EvE is a Level Playing Field, which may be the least fair field possible.


Don't confuse "fair" with "reasonable" and "entertaining".

I think I made an example of a chess game where your pieces are all pawns, and other player's pieces are all queens. Fair? No, but it is also not reasonable or entertaining in any way.

You see, to most players EVE is just a GAME. it is something they spend their entertainment dollars on, and expect some entertainment value for their money. Being a 120 lb wimp and being thrown into the ring with a 600 lb gorilla is not what most people consider entertaining, or reasonable, or competitive, or...yes...fair. Hence low subs for EVE.
Hestia Mar
Calmaretto
#145 - 2012-07-12 18:00:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Hestia Mar
OK, I will bite, as I'm probably going to be the only true non-pvp'er that will reply to the thread (although this is a forum alt).

The reason for not indulging in pure pvp? [b]I just don't see the point.[/b]

Don't get me wrong - if my main's corp or Alliance gets a wardec then I'll tool up and fight as much as I can, because that's to defend what I/we have built up.

I've crossed verbal swords with Tippia many times about what this game is meant to be (in my opinion), and what I don't think this game is, is a purely pvp game. I'm sorry, I know you won't accept that, but remember I'm almost certainly reflecting the (generally silent) majority view. It's a game that has pvp elements yes, but to simply log on and get in a ship and look to blow people up...well I think you're missing the most involving parts of the game (although no doubt your hi-sec alts are doing stuff your pvp alts consider beneath them).

Another way to look at the type of pvp you're on about is to imagine pvp in World War 2 - each side had planes that were more or less evenly matched and it was ultimately pilot skill (and a certain amount of luck) that got the kill...the sort of pvp you want/take part in, is someone in a Sopwith Camel, being fought by someone in an F-22 Raptor. Be honest - if there was a chance that you would go up against someone pretty much equal to you in terms of SP and ship fit, would you stay and fight - probably not.

Please let's not get involved in the 'EVE is a pvp game' argument - the question asked was trying find out why people don't pvp.

So there you have it. PVP is pointless, simply done for instant gratification.

(Edit -something else I've just thought which might also be relevant - I'm in my 50's and so maybe I just don't have the interest in proving how well I can hit F1 anymore. I'll leave that to you young bucks, lol)

Flame away.
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#146 - 2012-07-12 18:16:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Ines Tegator
#1: Fluidity of gameplay. To PvP in any serious fashion, you have to be part of a corp or whatnot that will back you up. That means being subject to their whims (ex: CTAs), and also vulnerabilities (ex: Pocket camped in, cloakies with hotdrops, etc). It makes it extremely hard to just log in and mess around for 20 minutes. This means I eventually stop logging in at all. It's simply the "pain in the ass" factor of it all. Better to hang out in highsec and do market pvp.

I specifically made this character intending to be a frigate/tackle/T1 cruiser specialist so I could remove the cost barrier and get out there and pvp. I trained up the skills and learned the mechanics but I never went and did it. #1 above catches me every time and I just stop playing.
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#147 - 2012-07-12 18:18:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Jame Jarl Retief
Dedra Hall wrote:
PVP to me is not just shooting. I want to actually have a chance to win. Being absolutely destroyed by someone is no fun for me.


I think this is the crux of the matter for many folks, myself included.

When I think back to other MMOs, or even just MP games in general, I can always remember amazing moments where player skill triumphed over everything else. And you never really know how things will play out. EVE is one of few MMOs where the outcome of the battle is decided the moment two parties hit their respective undock buttons.

Don't get me wrong, I get that in most games there's always a bit of rock-paper-scissors-shotgun-mushrooms thing going. So you bring scissors to a rock fight, you're going to suffer for it. We all know it and accept it. But even in poorly balanced MMOs, I feel player skill plays a much bigger role than it does in EVE. Sometimes rock is just an inferior player, or gets overconfident. It can easily lead to a loss. I once had a 2v1 against a dps/healer, and won. DPS got overconfident, broke line of sight to the healer and I managed to take him out, ended up kiting the healer long enough to recover, and took him out as well. A 2v1 turning into a win where it should have been a massive one-sided loss, all because the game allows player skill to overshadow all other things.

That is not to say player skill in EVE is irrelevant - far from it - but it is far, FAR behind other considerations, when it should be far AHEAD of them. And that turns a lot of people off. This is only exacerbated further when people realize that they cannot improve, no matter how much they play or practice, until their CHARACTER'S skillpoints improve, and which increase in real time. There's nothing quite so soul-crushing as hitting a plateau and knowing with complete certainty that nothing will change AT ALL for 3+ weeks until you train up another skill. And when skill get even longer, a month or more each, it just wrecks morale.

On one hand, I recognize EVE has a lot of nice redeeming features. But on the other hand, it has tons of glaring problems as well. What's worse, I see "old hands" fighting tooth and nail to keep the advantages that their advanced SP offers them. Had they actually wanted more and better quality PvP, they would be fighting to reduce the entry barrier for newer players. Instead they harp on about how SP is meaningless (beyond a certain point, which depending on who you talk to takes from 6 months to 6 years to reach) and bemoan other peoples' unwillingness to take it up the tailpipe.

EDIT:

On constructive note, I think EVE's PvP and combat in general could benefit from just better mechanics. Most MMOs these days have line of sight at the very least. Things like terrain, line of sight, etc., become critically important. EVE, being in space, has no terrain and no line of sight.

I often remember playing Pirates of the Burning Sea (Sony MMO very similar to EVE in many respects), where the shape of the sail on the vessel determined the optimal direction and speed where it could travel. That is, a latin sail vessel could easily escape a square sail by turning into a close haul to the wind, which is an optimal point-of-sail for that vessel. It allowed for more tactics, and player skill to play a larger role.

All ships had "dead zones" where cannons could not fire - get into an enemy ship's dead zone and damage you take drops to zero. In EVE this is partially achieved by cheap mechanics such as fast small ships outrunning missile explosions, but let's face it these mechanics are really just cheap and don't add anything good to the game. In EVE it is done with hull + SP, not player skill like in PotBS.

PotBS also had ship boarding mechanics. That is, an 8 gun Xebec could catch and board a 32 gun Merchantman, and if you were good at avatar combat you could win and capture the ship that way. You didn't need to annihilate it with cannon fire if you could climb on board and drive your Florentine fencing sword into the other captain's gullet. Again, not so in EVE.

Further, that game had line of sight. That is, a ship in bad shape could duck behind an island, or a friendly ship, or heck even an enemy ship with fewer guns, which would prevent the enemy that deals more damage from continuing to lay down the hurt. Again, not so in EVE.

Finally, in that game there were varying ammo types. You had chain and bar shot that damaged sails, you had grape shot that killed the crew, and you had round shot that damaged the structure of the ship. Damaging sails reduced speed and mobility in a permanent way, unless repaired via ability or consumable, both of which had cooldowns and limited effect. Grape shot killed crew, which did not replenish at all until you docked in a port. Kill enough crew, and both the speed AND damage would suffer, as there wouldn't be enough crew to man the guns. Also, fewer crew makes the boarding action much easier (crew showed up as computer controlled NPCs). And round shot just damaged the hull, which when destroyed sunk the ship with all hands.

As a result, combat was FAR deeper. Between wind, shot type, sail type and combat preference, as well as situational awareness (terrain, line of sight breaks, dead zones, etc.) plus much more direct control over your ship's movement and speed made for MUCH better combat. There were times where I got absolutely butchered by the enemy because I was simply outplayed at every turn, not because he was higher level, had better ship, better guns or anything else. Player skill, instead of character skill.
Tanlinara
LightBender Mining and Research Corp
#148 - 2012-07-12 18:26:35 UTC
Several factors :

1. IMO pvp in MMO'S suck , if i want pvp i ll play Quake,UT, Americas army or some other twitch based game designed for pvp
2. See number 1 . I will shoot your face off if i can if you bother me .Big smile
3. I play eve for other areas of game play , the pvp is not one of them.


Bommel McMurdoc
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#149 - 2012-07-12 18:27:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Bommel McMurdoc
I spend a lot of time in high-sec simply because I feel like I am not ready to venture into the great unknown. So many skills to develop, long list of goals to achieve, and a large portion of those who strongly advocate PvP give the elective genre a personality that makes it unattractive.

The one thing that has long bothered me, IRL or in any MMO I've ever played, happens to be the concept of being forced to do something when I don't feel comfortable enough doing it. "HERE! have a beer BRAH!....WHOOO HOOO! " "no thanks" "COME ON! LIGHTEN UP!" "no man.... " (which follows with various attempts of insulting pressures usually relating the female anatomy or depending on ones point of view ... another noun describing a cat) OR something close to home.... "PVP!" "nah dude I can't afford to pvp yet." "SO WHAT! IT"S FUN!" "nah man..." "okay you asked for it... HULKAGEDDON! JIHAD! MOHAMMED DEEMS YOU UNWORTHY!" (sigh)

to be perfectly honest, I am really interested in the whole "survival" idea of EvE online. Venturing into low sec or Null space to explore, survive, reap the rewards (and the list is long) that I can't get in high security space. "Pirates come and get me! My corpmates are under attack! (hops into Jaguar) ETA 1 minute! go go go!" sure that's an awesome idea, that's my idea of what eve should be. Not "Mark another for the killboards! whoo hoo!" (That's for Americas army or quake or even counterstrike.)

PvP in this game, in my mind, has become perverted into a sickening and primitive way that's parallel with pushing granny who is in a wheelchair down the hills of San Francisco instead of merely helping her across the street.

PvP like sex is overrated. Bear
Vara Khardula
Doomheim
#150 - 2012-07-12 18:30:05 UTC
In terms of pvp on Mains / Older characters? Everything related to Medical Services & cloning. This isn't just about isk, but the logistics tied to cloning. It's annoying and a bit of a turn off after a while. Fortunately there's station trading.
Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#151 - 2012-07-12 18:33:01 UTC
-Couldn't afford to lose ships.
-Wasn't impressed by the teen smack talk style of a lot of pvp corps. Now pvping, but with a small gang of mature and rather courteous players.

Pipa Porto
#152 - 2012-07-12 18:33:58 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:

True. But admit it, even at 5 mil SP vs 50 mil SP, the 5 mil SP char will be at a distinct disadvantage. At frig level it is not such a big deal, but it will still be palpable. Plus, nothing is stopping the 50 mil SP char from shipping up if he doesn't like the odds, but the 5 mil SP char cannot. He has to run or die. Probably both.

I'll give you an example from just 2 weeks ago. I'm in a frigate, I see another frigate. I chase him. He warps off. Five minutes later he's back in a destroyer. I run, and ship up to destroyer. He comes in a cruiser. I come in a cruiser too. He comes in a T2 cruiser, at which point I have to fold because I don't have the SP yet. See the point? He wins. Not due to player skill, but due to massive SP advantage.

Yes, you could say EVE is slow paced and all that, but bottom line is, if a player has to wait 3-6 months before being competitive ONLY due to SP, not due to player skill, that's a problem.

Now consider how it compares to SKILL based games, as in "player skill", not "character skillpoints". In those games, a newbie would not hesitate to engage a veteran, because a bullet to the head is a bullet to the head. Outdraw, outsmart, outflank - either way even a complete newbie playing for a total of 30 seconds has a solid chance against someone who played for 300 days, if he's good enough. Not so in EVE.


A player has to wait 3-6 months to be competitive in 1v1 , arena combat vs someone who has spent vastly more time with the game. Ruh-Roh. Good thing EvE doesn't have single arenas. Pick your battles well, and you'll win.

So you're complaining that you have to pick your battles in EvE? Player skill in EvE includes social skills. If you want to take every battle there is, you're going to need friends. Besides that, depending on which T2 cruiser, you could easily have taken him with the appropriate frigate or cruiser, fitted and flown well. EvE is a game of Rock, Paper, Scissors. You don't win by trying to counter Rock with Rock.

Quote:

Yes, yes. All true. But like I said above, you show up in a frigate. He comes back in a cruiser. Because you have 15 mil SP, and he has 50 mil SP. And he has excellent cruiser skills, virtually maxed. Can you take a cruiser in a frigate? Nope. Hence, SP decides the outcome.

So while there's *technically* a sweet spot where *for that hull* you can no longer improve, there's nothing stopping your target from simply shipping up, if he has a massive SP advantage.

Granted, there's another sweet spot beyond which neither of you can improve your ship flying skill, but that takes what, five to six years? Most people seldom have relationships that last that long, never mind a game.


Then you ship up too. Counter his SP advantage with a Numbers or money advantage. Goonswarm beat BoB with Rifters and Dirty fighting. Fight to win, and you will end up winning more and more, regardless of SP.


Quote:

Translation - cannon fodder.

Now compare that to another MMO, in 95% of which in 3 months or less you are totally combat effective. That is, if you are good enough, you can take anyone 1v1 with an even chance of winning. What's more, in some MMOs, skill is vastly more important than level, class or gear. Good example being Age of Conan, where a good player with a lower level character that is very poorly equipped can do 2v1 or even 3v1 (3 people chain attacking back to back without rest in between) and still win. This is just mathematically impossible in EVE unless the enemy is AFK or braindead.


No, translation: Allowing the Team to get the win. And un-tackled enemy is an escaped enemy.

Ok, then play Age of Conan. You don't like that investing in the game grants some advantage, don't play. The rest of us understand that realistically, going up against 3 to 1 odd when the opponent is better prepared than you is silly.


Quote:
True, but as a general rule SP and money are very closely related. At 1 mil SP, my money making capability was a fraction of what it became at 10 million SP. And at 20-30 million I expect it to be another order of magnitude higher. Point being, at 10 mil SP I can afford to throw away ships that I cannot afford to throw away at 1 mil SP, regardless of my personal skills.


At 1m SP, you're money making capability is infinite. Be creative and look beyond poopsocking Red Crosses or Rocks.

Quote:

Don't confuse "fair" with "reasonable" and "entertaining".

I think I made an example of a chess game where your pieces are all pawns, and other player's pieces are all queens. Fair? No, but it is also not reasonable or entertaining in any way.

You see, to most players EVE is just a GAME. it is something they spend their entertainment dollars on, and expect some entertainment value for their money. Being a 120 lb wimp and being thrown into the ring with a 600 lb gorilla is not what most people consider entertaining, or reasonable, or competitive, or...yes...fair. Hence low subs for EVE.


Your example of a Chess game isn't apt. That's not a level playing field. EvE is.

Being a 120lb wimp and getting thrown into an arena with a 600lb Gorilla would be unfair. Luckily, EvE doesn't have arena combat, so the 120lb wimp has the option (whether he chooses to accept it or not) of bringing some friends, some nets, and maybe a bazooka to the party. Suddenly the odds look pretty bleak for the Gorilla.

Finally, EvE's the 4th Largest Paid MMO in the world, 6th Largest including FTP, and 3rd largest Paid Western MMO. Calling EvE's sub count "Low" is ridiculous. (For reference, Age of Conan spiked at 700k subs in 2008, and has since come crashing down to 100k subs)

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Johnson Johnson
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#153 - 2012-07-12 18:37:16 UTC
1. work
2. sleep
3. the woman

i ******* hate them all
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
#154 - 2012-07-12 18:46:52 UTC
I play eve to build stuff and sell it on the market, so while I only try to avoid PvP while transporting goods, it just doesn't come up much.

I tried the nullsec alliance lifestyle a few years ago, and that really sucked for doing what I like in eve. I've lost ships to PvP though a few times in solo encounters and in wormholes...which was pretty exciting, but the blob warefare stuff in null was just bad gameplay, IMO.

So, as a builder, PvP just generally sets me back to replace a loss, which distracts from what I do, so I just don't go looking for it. If it does happen, and the ship I'm in has weapons fitted, I fight back. When I do get blown up, it's almost always my fault.
highonpop
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#155 - 2012-07-12 18:49:14 UTC
-A- Doesn't PVP because they hope others will get bored and go away

FC, what do?

Derron Bel
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#156 - 2012-07-12 19:50:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Derron Bel
I came back to eve after about 6 years and all my assets are scattered throughout Domain. yet my friends are in minmatar militia. So I don't want to join up yet. i'll get shot trying to get at my stuff. lol. As soon as i can get enough wealth either sold or out of domain I'll probably give faction warfare a try.

Also i don't think ganking is real pvp. There's a huge difference between catching someone off guard / out numbering them, and the sort of sheer helplessness you get in a lot of eve pvp. A lot of the time it seems like you're one of those grunts that RTS players sacrifice in droves.

+...personal opinions... there are so many mechanics where you can't do anything at all to your opponent. (getting speed tanked, getting ECMd, getting infinitely kited, cap neutralized, etc.) not to start an argument about it. I just think its really flawed and totally pre-determined compared to other pvp games i have played. Darkspace and STO are directly comparable and both had way more skill in their PVP combat, at least in my limited experience of eve.
Ayeshah Volfield
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#157 - 2012-07-12 19:52:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Ayeshah Volfield
Clone costs and insurance payouts. All other costs are fine by me.

EVE is what happens when the rule of law does not apply and Darwinism is allowed to run freely.

Aless Benetek
Perkone
Caldari State
#158 - 2012-07-12 19:53:39 UTC
I will preceed this by saying I LOVE MMO PVP, Open World, Death Penalties, etc. are my preference..and I love being a ganker, so I am not a care bear..but EvE PVP has stymied me. Also, the Corp I am in is one of EVE's best newb PVP training corps (very structured pilot/pvp training process) who regularly declare war so that we have plenty of war targets/pvp opportunities, even so I think EvE PVP is less than it could be....

1. Lack of Knowledge
2. Not sure where to begin
3. Ship fitting for PVP is a pain (takes too long, researching interweb for fits, flying all over to get best price, etc. - someone could make bucko ISK selling packages of 5, 10, 20, etc. pvp frigates)
4. Lack of experience and confidence - give me an MMO like Battle Ground and I will play for hours, learn leet PVP skills, and be an in your face pirate, ganker in the real game in no time...
5. Lack of accessibility - yeah folks say it's easy, drop cans in Jita for 1v1, join Red v Blue, buy 20 Rifters and just do it, etc. but...
6. Speed of access - sheeze, read the Rifter Plan or Punisher Plan blogs, the supposed "ideal" newb entry process into PVP and both directly and indirectly (between the lines), training tech II skills (he realized he needt TII auto cannons to have a chance) finding and/or tracking PVP opponents is a looooong process if you want to have any chance of surviving/learning/winning from the experience
7. PvP is complicated! - Read Rifter and Punisher Plans, from the perspective of a newish player mind you, and it doesnt even scratch the surface of PVP in Eve! and that is the "condensed" version that highlights the minute or two of excitement that happened after hours, days, weeks of skilling, stalking, waiting, etc.
7. Test Server "Battle Ground" with it's no-loss option, despite what peeps say, is not casual friendly, easy to jump into/out option, and useless to all but the experienced few. Who wants to spend weeks (months?) in the test server doing a "Rifter" plan and getting good at PVP (now if they gave me one button in-game access, provided incentives (rank, clothing, etc.), provided some structure (faction warfareish maybe), I would play the test server, etc. till my eyes bleed, ala most MMO battlegrounds)
8. Not casual player friendly
9. RvP Option for me was a blob fest - the most exciting part was the build up, FC leading us around, etc. - the actual engagement, blob vs blob was a confusing mess, and lasted like 30 secs when I was blown apart from 30-40KM, never really got up close and personal, to even see more than flashy red dots in my overview. I was left thinking - sheeze what just happened, PvP in EvE is anti-climactic.

IMHO, alot of older EvE players have other games on (DayZ, World of Tanks, Minecraft, etc.) that they play, while on vent, waiting for something to happen worth jumping back into EvE (Hey, there's a war target in system....nevermind, he left....).

Now I know it would violate the sandbox, lore and purity of EvE (like that never happens), but give me an in-game/station "Combat SImulator/Holodeck", with instant PVP access/gratification, ie. just steal WOT, make spaceships stead of tanks, and put in EvE..) and ALL players would become experienced, knowledgeable, agressive PVPers in the real EvE world in no time (I know the tactics, each country's tank types, where to hit, etc. in just a few weeks playing WoT), but i have played EvE for several months and I can't tell you what ships the Amar have, what their holes are, when to run, when to fight, etc.).

Anyway, back to playing WoT until someone in Eve Vent says we have a roam going or there is an afk miner to gank.
Vellen Thoss
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#159 - 2012-07-12 19:56:16 UTC
Ayeshah Volfield wrote:
Clone costs and insurance payouts. All other costs are fine by me.


Clone costs don't really bother me.... yet (only 13.5mil SP), but insurance payouts, or lack thereof for T2 ships keeps me from wanting to fly anything more than a T1 cruiser/frig into pvp, unless its in a Force Recon or CovOps.
Charles Baker
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#160 - 2012-07-12 19:59:36 UTC
I don't PVP much because i A) Don't play for long enough a week to go on 3-4 hour CTA ops, B) Don't like sitting on teamspeak with a bunch of kids all night C) Can't afford to put a new 200+ mil Tempest on field every other day. etc etc, although i'm more than partial to making short jaunts into NPC null for small fights.