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Grats CCP, No armsrace will every be possible vs current tech holders

Author
Pesky LaRue
Mercatoris
#21 - 2012-07-08 15:07:01 UTC
Arkon Olacar wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
I just think the tech should move around. I don't like the idea of fixed assets at fixed locations at all. Tech needs to fade out of one region and fade into another over time. Then you'll see a more dynamic null-sec.


This is what happens when npc corp alts of high sec carebears suggest changes to null sec mechanics.

Just curious, but why do you think that? I have long believed that having the moon-goo fade in and out in waves would absolutely create a more dynamic null-sec landscape as the movement of scarce and limited veins would likely create a moving front-line as alliances are constantly on the go, ravaging an area for it's natural resources and then moving on.

no?
stoicfaux
#22 - 2012-07-08 15:14:29 UTC
Capitalism will save the day! Some team of bright engineers/chemists/scientists will create synthetic tech or create a generic equivalent or find a way to synthesize tech from other elements.

Similar to how DeBeers created a world-wide monopoly on diamonds, increasing prices on diamonds to artificially high levels, until people figured out how to grow perfect diamonds in the lab.

Also, wealth and power tends to attract egos. Politics tends to bring down even the best and most established organizations.


Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Spurty
#23 - 2012-07-08 15:14:38 UTC
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
If only 10% of high sec dwellers were to form an alliance, they would likely out number even the largest null sec alliance by 7 to 1.



And do what? They are not even able to replace their own ships in less than a week of grinding missions.

If you're not holding tech (just need to be blue to someone that does to meet that criteria) you're not going to do anything more than dream.

Seems that's all high sec people want mind you so don't see any point in changes made to the game.

Only changes that could rewire high sex people are things like :

- pirate modules and implants in null sec. Take them
To high sec / low sec and get fined
- faction modules only allowed in that factions space unless you're in fw where you are have to adjust your behavior

There is no need to come to null sec while everything minus the headaches is available at any market hub.

Jita is a massive blanket of comfort

Not sure why everyone wants to fight over null sec ... People camping Jita undock / gates are ahead of the curve with regards to effort / risk / reward

Holding tech doesn't affect them. Only concern they have is that Jita doesn't get it's trillions of ISK brought in / out every few hours

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP

Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2012-07-08 15:57:22 UTC
Spurty wrote:

Not sure why everyone wants to fight over null sec ... People camping Jita undock / gates are ahead of the curve with regards to effort / risk / reward

Holding tech doesn't affect them. Only concern they have is that Jita doesn't get it's trillions of ISK brought in / out every few hours


Sure, if by effort and risk/reward you mean sitting there like a lump, waiting for people to be vulnerable while their client freezes and blanks out during undock, so you can kill them without any chance of them fighting back. "Leet Highsec PVP" I guess, but it doesn't hold a candle to anything in Nullsec.

Also, I think you're vastly mistaken re: Tech profits. If you got 7000 players together and had them doing something in highsec, like say, mission running, or Ice botting, or crafting ships or something, you'd see similar profits. Tech is just what Goons "do" right now, because of a lucky happenstance with Goon space and moon goo.

The only way to really shuffle this around would be to force CCP to disband Goonswarm and the CFC, and hahaha, even NewCCP wouldn't dare.
forestwho
Doomheim
#25 - 2012-07-08 16:07:09 UTC  |  Edited by: forestwho
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
TL;DR

Goons and pals control all the tech, and I can't be arsed to do anything about it.

Want that tech? take it, just like they did. :effort: :teamwork: Evil


Cant if the current holders buys corps, strenght and has untimited reimbursement powers. Read my post properly pls


Xython wrote:


Also, I think you're vastly mistaken re: Tech profits. If you got 7000 players together and had them doing something in highsec, like say, mission running, or Ice botting, or crafting ships or something, you'd see similar profits. Tech is just what Goons "do" right now, because of a lucky happenstance with Goon space and moon goo.


Moonmining is 99% afk job once you have the establischment (blues) to defend them. Only need to fuel the tower and scoop out the goo 3 times a month and ship it to jita from time to time. Ppl maybe x up 1% of their monthy playing time to defend it myabe once in holdership....

Dersk wrote:
forestwho wrote:
This is not about nerfing tech, this is about injecting sooo much isk in an alliance by broken game mechannics that it is impossible to counter them in several arms races.


So that explains why no one could dislodge alliances like Morsus Mihi, White Noise., Raiden., RAZOR, and Mostly Harmless from their tech moons. I was wondering.


0.0 politics are complicated, you saying that tells me you know nothing about it and allaince inner structures & it strengts and weaknesses and all sorts that is related to that.... pls move on
Lucy Ferrr
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2012-07-08 16:08:49 UTC
Xython wrote:
Spurty wrote:

Not sure why everyone wants to fight over null sec ... People camping Jita undock / gates are ahead of the curve with regards to effort / risk / reward

Holding tech doesn't affect them. Only concern they have is that Jita doesn't get it's trillions of ISK brought in / out every few hours




Also, I think you're vastly mistaken re: Tech profits. If you got 7000 players together and had them doing something in highsec, like say, mission running, or Ice botting, or crafting ships or something, you'd see similar profits. Tech is just what Goons "do" right now, because of a lucky happenstance with Goon space and moon goo.

T


The difference is there are not 7000 people mining moon goo. I don't how many people exactly you have tending to POS but I am sure it's just a small handful. A handful of people making the same amount of isk (almost completely passively may I add) as 7000 people actively running missions or mining ice.
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2012-07-08 16:10:06 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Tyrozan
forestwho wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
TL;DR

Goons and pals control all the tech, and I can't be arsed to do anything about it.

Want that tech? take it, just like they did. :effort: :teamwork: Evil


Cant if the current holders buys corps, strenght and has untimited reimbursement powers. Read my post properly pls


Xython wrote:


Also, I think you're vastly mistaken re: Tech profits. If you got 7000 players together and had them doing something in highsec, like say, mission running, or Ice botting, or crafting ships or something, you'd see similar profits. Tech is just what Goons "do" right now, because of a lucky happenstance with Goon space and moon goo.


Moonmining is 99% afk job once you have the establischment (blues) to defend them. Only need to fuel the tower and scoop out the goo 3 times a month and ship it to jita from time to time. Ppl maybe x up 1% of their monthy playing time to defend it myabe once in holdership....


You -snip-

No personal attacks, please.

ISD Tyrozan
forestwho
Doomheim
#28 - 2012-07-08 16:14:34 UTC
Xython wrote:
Go away.


Why cause this is a serious issue that is serious broken and that is affecting your income?
Gorinia Sanford
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2012-07-08 16:15:59 UTC
forestwho wrote:
due your repetable failures

This is not about nerfing tech, this is about injecting sooo much isk in an alliance by broken game mechannics that it is impossible to counter them in several arms races. Resulting in several things:

Unlimited reimbursent power;
-Basicly this gives the abillity to suicie fleet after fleet to ware the oppoment isk pool down.

Unlimited capital ship buying power;
-Abllity to fully fund allaince super capitals and reimburse them and not getting an financial injury when losing.

Strenghten the individual corporations of a tech alliance more
-By having lots of isk for those corps they are able to purchase more and better support for there members. Think hereby about setting up logi chains with corp JF's, hireing FC's and free roaming ship reimbursements.

Giving those alliances a better moral and a better pubic image due more isk
-Good FC's tend to join such allaices as they are getting payed in isk and getting their ships fully reimbursed. This creates a chain of affects that boost internal alli moral (more stuff/roams to do) and increases overall public image

Exellent Alliance Recruitment
-Those allainces can take in more and better corps due promising them isk every month. Why shouldnt join an allaince that reimburse all your losses freely, hands out free supers and payes you 10-20b a month for just being there...

This is an armsrace that will effects eve for a long long time. Due poor game desighn and repeatable negection of serious issues like this i come to the conclusion that you have learned nothing so far CCP. The only way to fix this a little bit is insta removing tech from tech moons and NPC seed it at current prices untill ringmining is introduced. The excess isk gained should be removed to a level thats acceptable, something thats upto you to decide. The biggest reson for this to do it now is due ISK stocking. When the amount of isk that an allaice gains is soo high that they can save up 500 billion isk a month, something must be serious wrong. When an alliance has over 10 Trillion in savings and gaining another 500 billion a month something is not right.... Expecialy when it is publicly known that CCP employees have high ranks in that allaince. A serious Public Image Threat for you marketing department and your customer base.


Would you like a little cheese with that whine?
Dave stark
#30 - 2012-07-08 16:16:32 UTC
forestwho wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
TL;DR

Goons and pals control all the tech, and I can't be arsed to do anything about it.

Want that tech? take it, just like they did. :effort: :teamwork: Evil


Cant if the current holders buys corps, strenght and has untimited reimbursement powers. Read my post properly pls


i'm sorry but the people in null sec who didn't bother to try and take the tech moons have nobody to blame but themselves. this situation is a direct result of their own actions or lack of.
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2012-07-08 16:16:40 UTC
Lucy Ferrr wrote:
Xython wrote:
Spurty wrote:

Not sure why everyone wants to fight over null sec ... People camping Jita undock / gates are ahead of the curve with regards to effort / risk / reward

Holding tech doesn't affect them. Only concern they have is that Jita doesn't get it's trillions of ISK brought in / out every few hours




Also, I think you're vastly mistaken re: Tech profits. If you got 7000 players together and had them doing something in highsec, like say, mission running, or Ice botting, or crafting ships or something, you'd see similar profits. Tech is just what Goons "do" right now, because of a lucky happenstance with Goon space and moon goo.

T


The difference is there are not 7000 people mining moon goo. I don't how many people exactly you have tending to POS but I am sure it's just a small handful. A handful of people making the same amount of isk (almost completely passively may I add) as 7000 people actively running missions or mining ice.


Sure, a small handful of people tending to POS... and an army of people offering required logistics support to ensure that handful of people can actually DO the moon mining in the first place. Don't try the false comparison bullshit there, it won't work. It's not 5 guys and a single spreadsheet leading to a trillion ISK a month in tech profits; it's the work of thousands of people in the Swarm working together.

Nullsec isn't Highsec, we have no CONCORD to hold our hands and wipe our... noses for us. If you want to start making real money in EVE, it's time to take off the training wheels and move out of Highsec. And CCP needs to get off their asses and move MORE money out of Highsec, because the Risk/Reward is so screwed up it's not even funny.
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2012-07-08 16:18:01 UTC
forestwho wrote:
Xython wrote:
Go away.


Why cause this is a serious issue that is serious broken and that is affecting your income?


No, because you're an alt-corp troll ("foonfleet? Skill yourself.) who has a rather obvious agenda and a poor grasp of the English language. "serious broken" indeed.
forestwho
Doomheim
#33 - 2012-07-08 16:19:00 UTC
Xython wrote:
forestwho wrote:
Xython wrote:
Go away.


Why cause this is a serious issue that is serious broken and that is affecting your income?


No, because you're an alt-corp troll ("foonfleet? Skill yourself.) who has a rather obvious agenda and a poor grasp of the English language. "serious broken" indeed.


you mad?
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2012-07-08 16:19:53 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
forestwho wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
TL;DR

Goons and pals control all the tech, and I can't be arsed to do anything about it.

Want that tech? take it, just like they did. :effort: :teamwork: Evil


Cant if the current holders buys corps, strenght and has untimited reimbursement powers. Read my post properly pls


i'm sorry but the people in null sec who didn't bother to try and take the tech moons have nobody to blame but themselves. this situation is a direct result of their own actions or lack of.


Ah, but it's a lot more fun to wine to CCP and pray that they intervene in the sandbox to "fix" the fact that Goonfleet and the CFC actually like the game enough to do things like take and hold tech moons.

Hey, before you roll your eyes -- it worked for the lazy bastards AFK Bot Mining in highsec! Maybe it'll work for the poor idiots in SoCo. After all, since they never undock they have plenty of time to whine on the forums under alt accounts.
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2012-07-08 16:21:27 UTC
forestwho wrote:
Xython wrote:
forestwho wrote:
Xython wrote:
Go away.


Why cause this is a serious issue that is serious broken and that is affecting your income?


No, because you're an alt-corp troll ("foonfleet? Skill yourself.) who has a rather obvious agenda and a poor grasp of the English language. "serious broken" indeed.


you mad?


Nope. And it's "You mad, bro?" Get it right.
Lucy Ferrr
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2012-07-08 16:25:20 UTC
Xython wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
forestwho wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
TL;DR

Goons and pals control all the tech, and I can't be arsed to do anything about it.

Want that tech? take it, just like they did. :effort: :teamwork: Evil


Cant if the current holders buys corps, strenght and has untimited reimbursement powers. Read my post properly pls


i'm sorry but the people in null sec who didn't bother to try and take the tech moons have nobody to blame but themselves. this situation is a direct result of their own actions or lack of.


Ah, but it's a lot more fun to wine to CCP and pray that they intervene in the sandbox to "fix" the fact that Goonfleet and the CFC actually like the game enough to do things like take and hold tech moons.

Hey, before you roll your eyes -- it worked for the lazy bastards AFK Bot Mining in highsec! Maybe it'll work for the poor idiots in SoCo. After all, since they never undock they have plenty of time to whine on the forums under alt accounts.


You guys are both dumb, but thanks for bringing your flawed argument to the table. How is anyone supposed to do anything about it. First the biggest alliance (Goons) allies with the second biggest alliance (TEST). Then you have all your pets, which are some of the biggest nul alliances. Your little circle jerk is nearly bigger than every non CFC nul alliance combined.

Your flawed argument is like calling the owner of a small grocery store stupid for not being more competitive and letting Walmart put him out of business.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2012-07-08 16:28:54 UTC
Lucy Ferrr wrote:
Rene Fullchest wrote:
Well, you know, it's not like CCP just gave all the tech to the CFC. We fought for it, took it, and hold it.

Not our problem that we were good enough to do so, nor is it CCP's.

If you truly feel that you, no one, will ever be able to take enough to compete, you should probably unsubscribe, because we certainly are not going to stop defending it.


Don't say we. You are no Goon, you are a lowly pet. There was no we, Goons fought for it and took it. Your masters just threw you a bone as condolences for all the rug burns on your knees.

.


http://crackerjax.org/gwiki/GoonWIki/wiki.goonfleet.com/Deklein.html

Quote:

In Summer 2010, following the Delve fiasco and the Cloud Ring fiasco, goons were invited to move to Deklein and stay on TCF's couch. Couple of months later, TCF decided they didn't want that region anyway and have moved to Venal, handing sovereignty of Deklein over to the Goonswarm Federation.


More bullsh1t please. LOL Fought for it.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#38 - 2012-07-08 16:32:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Pesky LaRue wrote:
Just curious, but why do you think that? I have long believed that having the moon-goo fade in and out in waves would absolutely create a more dynamic null-sec landscape as the movement of scarce and limited veins would likely create a moving front-line as alliances are constantly on the go, ravaging an area for it's natural resources and then moving on.

no?
Most likely no.

Precious moon goo is worth taking and holding space over. But will it be worth doing that every n months? Constant war costs and that's what will be required to create the dynamic, on top of constantly having to pull down and erect towers to get the most of your territory. It also introduces a lead time in doing all that work (and finding the new rich veins) that cuts into the profit period. So it's just as likely that it will just cause more static behaviour: better to just sit tight and take what you can — build up a reserve while the riches come your way and wait out the downtime before the die rolls in your favour again.

At the same time, it's also as likely that it will not actually work against the “big guys” — that lead-up time will once again come to bite you if and when the smaller entity suddenly finds itself sitting on a gold mine. It has to harvest all of it, get it to market, use those riches to build defences… and get all of it done before the big brutes come and stomp all over you. With this outcome, the only dynamic is that the big coalitions stomp all over the map — not that there will be any dynamism in who's “on top” at any given time.

While it sounds good in theory, dynamic resource shifts might in practice cause even more static space holding and/or even more favour the larger alliances — the (unstated) goal is often one or both of the opposites of those two outcomes. Sure, those new problems could conceivably be fixed, but that would require yet another massive revamp of both the space holding (or, more accurately, space-taking) and resource extraction mechanisms… and ship building… and force projection… and (etc).


That is not to say that it wouldn't have other beneficial effects, but things like plain old laziness, economics, and lag-time in building a power base will definitely dampen the whole “dynamic” aspect of that kind of change.
Aineko Macx
#39 - 2012-07-08 16:37:00 UTC
By OPs logic the old NC shouldn't have collapsed under external pressure.
Xinivrae
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2012-07-08 16:43:39 UTC
Lucy Ferrr wrote:

You guys are both dumb, but thanks for bringing your flawed argument to the table. How is anyone supposed to do anything about it. First the biggest alliance (Goons) allies with the second biggest alliance (TEST). Then you have all your pets, which are some of the biggest nul alliances. Your little circle jerk is nearly bigger than every non CFC nul alliance combined.


That right there, that "it's impossible, don't bother to try" mentality is what's keeping you down.