These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Crime & Punishment

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

What's with this buy order?
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Sly Dealer
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2012-07-07 09:24:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Sly Dealer
Okay, so I've got a bit of an issue. I fell victim to a contract / margin trading scam (shame on me). However this is not my issue. A series of events occurred between two of my characters afterwards that has me questioning the legitimacy of the other player's client or the player him/herself. I'm going to give the whole story and the first and most shameful part takes place on Sly.

I suckered myself into buying "Thon's Modified Explosive Deflection Field" and various deadspace mods through a contract that a character by the name of "Yoshitsuni" was advertising in Jita local. The contract was for 1.121 billion ISK. There were several buy orders for Thon's mod on the market in the Forge region, the Jita system specifically, the station i was sitting in more specifically (you ALL know), and 2 orders that were quite high. So i bought the contract.

One of the orders was for 1 of Thon's mods for roughly 1.4b isk +/-. The second order was for 2 at roughly 1.35b isk +/-. What i failed to recognize was the order for 2 had a minimum requirement of 2 (damn, my bad). I sucked it up, well, i cried inside, but you know what i mean. Some things happened in the there-after that seemed to offer me a shot at my isk back. What follows is a series of wallet journal entries (with other details) for 2 characters on my account involved in this thing. This will get lengthy and i do apologize, but it is necessary. Please bare with me and "hear" me out. The time line and events are what's crucial. I'm seeing these buy orders on the market, i talk myself up and buy the Contract:

2012.07.03 / 20:19:09 - Contract Price: -1,121,000,000.00 isk - Balance: 5,509,663.84 isk - Price for accepting a contract. (Yay! I'm thinking quick 2-300mil extra right?) A little slow on the draw, no doubt, i try to sell the item as the order still shows on my buyer list:
2012.07.03 / 20:19:50 (41 seconds later) - Brokers Fee: -5,022,155.70 isk - Balance: 487,508.14 isk. - Market order commission authorized by Sly Dealer.

Lots of things i could have done to avoid this, but the fact is i didn't put enough thought or effort into checking all avenues of sell for that item as i would have found that 2 more of these items were in contract for far less. One for less than 150mil isk. The order was showing on the market buy list still, and it showed as me attempting to sell it for the 1.4b isk through the right-click-sell item biz. But as i actually clicked the button, the order had been lost and i posted the module on the market for the amount that had been offered. Now i knew i was had. Sad face. I added Yoshitsuni to my contacts list and proceeded to cope with the loss.

Although it was right after this i found more of them in contract for cheaper, i was gonna try to sell a ship and buy the mod for 150m and sell 2 off real quick, but my sell item window was no longer functioning, and i had to relog. By this time the other order was gone obviously.

Several minutes later Yoshitsuni logs off as his mission was accomplished. I left the module sitting on the market while i bitched at myself for even buying the mod in the first place. That was the first time i'd ever actually had 1b+ isk in my wallet at one time. Doesn't say much for the age of my character, but i spend. And this was by far my dumbest move yet.
I sat and went ahead and tossed the other mods on the market. A short while after i posted the deadspace mods and some other stuff, i finally started showing some isk come in. was about 8mil total.

From 20.07.03 / 20:46:16 until 2012.07.03 / 20:50:32, a character by the name of "Imen Zane" made a series of 6 purchases from me, all of which were some of the deadspace mods. I saw this character start advertising a contract in local, checked it out, saw that it had the mods she had just bought from me and a different officer mod. I checked the market on the new officer mod in the contract, similar thing was going on. I was super pissed and super tired, so I added this character to my contacts list and called it a night...
Sly Dealer
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2012-07-07 09:27:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Sly Dealer
About 19 hours later i logged back into the game. In the meantime, Yoshitsuni made 2 separate purchases of different deadspace mods from me at 2012.07.04 / 14:28:24 and 14:28:54. After i logged in, I immediately opened my wallet, went to my orders tab, checked the market on that module and saw a buy order for it for about 1.3b isk. Unaware he had made these purchases from me. I left that module on the market all night, so i had to cancel the order before i could attempt to sell it to that new order. My attempted sell:

2012.07.04 / 15:16:49 - Brokers Fee: -4,839,340.67 isk - Balance: -isk - Market order commission authorized by Sly Dealer.
Now I'm assuming Yoshitsuni was online (and he was) attempting a scam with this module again. That's the only reason the order would even be there, correct? It's his scam. The only reason that brokers fee is so high, is cause the order remained on the buy list long enough for me to attempt to sell to it again. When i clicked the button to sell, the buy order disappeared and i posted the item on the market as a seller, for what the buyer was offering. This is now twice this has happened.

If you look at the times, you can see he bought some of the modules from me he used in the scam that he got me with the first time, only 48 minutes before i logged in and attempted to sell the module to the new order (which I'm assuming is his as he logs off several minutes after i logged on and attempted the sell). If he is currently online at this moment running this scam, it would stand to reason he made the new contract within the last 48 minutes. Since i bought the last contract, and he now needed a new one to run the scam. This is important because "A GM" will tell me later I tried selling to an order that was 6 hours old.

The thing with this is, unless he went back on this characters market transaction history and is referring to the very first time i tried to sell to one of these orders, or the person had already been on for several hours before i logged back on, running the same scam, but only happen to buy mods for a new contract, which is obviously what they're for as i've seen them in 4 different contracts coming from 3 seperate characters, 48 minutes before i log on, then there are only 2 instances in which A GM could be referring to, and both took place on Sly. The very first time i tried to sell it, the order very well could have been 6 hours old, and the 2nd time as well, as i had not been on for 19 hours. But this is not where my issue lies. It's with my other character.

After my failed 2nd attempt at selling Thon's mod back to the buy order, i canceled the newly placed sell order after a while and sent the module to my alt thinking i might try the next morning to catch him running the scam without having to log on to the character he initially scammed. I sent the module and 10m isk to my alt:

2012.07.04 / 15:59:15 - Contract Reward Deposited: -10,000,000.00 isk - Balance: -isk - Reward deposited for completing a contract. I log off of Sly.

20 minutes later i decide I'll go ahead and log on to my alt "Mrs Slow Warpspeeds" and accept the contract. By which character my petition over the matter was sent and where the issue is. I log on to her, she's 3 jumps from Jita, i add Yoshitsuni and Imen Zane to my contact list, fly over to Jita, and while i'm just the other side of Jita's gate, Yoshitsuni logs on. I jump the gate, get docked and accept the contract.

It's obvious he is watching Sly, he shouldn't know Mrs Slow Warpspeeds. My alt has no skills whatsoever, especially no trading skills. I accept the contract on Mrs Slow Warpspeeds:

2012.07.04 / 16:15:54 - Contract Reward: +10,000,000.00 isk - Reward for completing a contract. (16 minutes and some odd seconds later)

I receive the item in my hangar and immediately start checking the market for a buy order as quickly as i can as Yoshitsuni just logged on and I'm assuming is going to get back to scamming thinking i might have logged for the night. My hunch payed off. Upon my first 4 viewings of the market, there was no buy order for Thon's mod, on the 5th time, the order appeared. This all took at most maybe 3 minutes.
Sly Dealer
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2012-07-07 09:33:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Sly Dealer
So there's the order. A buy order for 1 Thon's Modified Explosive Deflection Field: 1.3b isk. In enough time for me to get back to the item, right-click the module for the drop down menu, select "sell this item", rush to the newly opened "simple sell" window, click the sell button and, not having enough isk on this character to drop a sell order of that magnitude, I receive an "order no longer exists" message. It was gone. 3-5 seconds could be a low ball, but no way it could have taken more than 10, and certainly did not take 5 minutes. This is now the 3rd time this order has disappeared immediately upon me pressing the "sell" button on the sell item window. A couple of minutes later, Yoshitsuni logs off. Confused and thinking market orders, buy or sell, can't be modified or canceled (modified!) for 5 minutes, and having just watched one come and go in a matter of seconds, i wrote a petition.

What follows is a series of correspondence with "A GM":

Initial petition and all correspondence made with Mrs Slow Warpspeeds:

2012.07.04 / 16:32 - market buy orders - Market & Contracts - Last Update: 2012.07.06 / 12:27 - i was under the impression that market orders, once placed, buy or sell, could not be modified or deleted for 5 mins minimum. i may be wrong about this, but in any case, a single person seems to have a lock on the market for Thon's Modified Explosive Deflection Field. i got caught up in a margin scam, much to my shame, and while i've accepted this defeat, i seem to have no way to fight back. he (Yoshitsuni) placed a buy order a few minutes ago, and no sooner then i could hit the sell button, the order was gone. this took place in a matter of 3-5 seconds. how was this possible and why are buy and sell orders not maintained under the same policies? i lost half my assets in the form of isk to this. i'm not very happy about this.

Added message: 2012.07.04 / 21:45 - after talking with my brother who also played eve for a while, and is more familiar with the market, and after an experiment of my own, i've come to the conclusion this is a hack. i could not cancel my buy order as soon as i put it up. Yoshitsuni is the perpetrator, and i'm confident Imen Zane is one of his/her alts as this character is running the same type of contract/market margin scam.

I did jump to conclusion on the hack thing, but look at the evidence.The experiment refers to an order i placed to buy 1 Stasis Webifier 1 for 0.01 isk: 2012.07.04 / 21:18:20 - Brokers Fee: -100.00 isk - market escrow: -0.01 isk - authorized by Mrs Slow Warpspeeds. I posted this order and could not immediately take it down. I tried for roughly 2 minutes after placing it, it just wouldn't let me and i knew it wouldn't let me for another 3 minutes. It's what the warning message told me. As i couldn't cancel my order then, i didn't bother with it anymore and finally pulled it down almost 2 days later. (2012.07.06 / 11:14:28.)

First A GM response: 2012.07.05 / 16:48 - Hello there,


I'm very sorry to say that this is in line with normal game mechanics. There are many scams in EVE that can be perpetrated using the standard game mechanics. We do not ban players who perpetrate scams that are in line with the game mechanics as they are not breaking any rules or using exploits.

Best regards,

A GM
EVE Online Customer Support Team

(I didn't feel this addressed my problem very well. Granted he didn't have quite the information i'm giving here. And for that i apologize.)

Added message: 2012.07.05 / 17:17 - so why is it he is able to place a buy order and immediately take it down, and i am not? i saw him log on, i kept checking the market as quickly as i could because i knew he was going to run this scam. as soon as the buy order appeared i right clicked the item in my hangar, clicked "sell item" in the drop down menu from the item in my hangar, i clicked the "sell" button on the sell window when it opened, and the order magically disappeared. this is in line with normal game mechanics? my client doesn't seem to work this way. can you explain in more detail please? i've been active in this game off and on for 5 years and just recently payed for a years subscription. i've not complained much. but what happened with this doesn't seem right, nor do i have access to the same features he does, apperently.

Added message: 2012.07.05 / 17:28 - i also did not ask that the player be banned. i'm simply implying something is wrong, and the matter should be looked into in detail. i should also have access to the same features he/she does, as i am also a paying customer. however, i do not.
Sly Dealer
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2012-07-07 09:35:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Sly Dealer
2nd A GM response: 2012.07.06 / 10:36 - Hi again,

As looking from the logs there is nothing wrong with the player in question and the game mechanic. Please keep in mind that you can have other characters to help in such scams, {{not only your character and the limitation of time incorporated into it.}} What does this mean?<- Sly's question.

Best regards,
A GM
EVE Online Customer Support Team

Added message: 2012.07.06 / 11:00 - Sir/Ma'am, you haven't told me anything. i'll ask again why my client does not seem to work the same as his/hers? did someone sell him/her the item before i could? did he/she sell the item to him/herself before i could? i can be given this information without y'all revealing any sensitive information about game mechanics. and if what has happened is allowable, can my client be fixed to do the same? and is live help available?

(I am sorry about here. Enough information hasn't been traded, and i didn't understand the previous response, and i was getting impatient. Plus i had just woken up. Not a morning person, i apologize.)

3rd A GM response: 2012.07.06 / 12:27 - Hi,

Yes the player's item was issued 6 hours before you have put up the order and was filled before you could. From the server log I can only confirm that you put up the sell order for that item after it has already been filled many hours ago.

As we can't verify what was exactly displayed on your screen at that time, we can only assist you with the information available to us.

Best regards,
A GM
EVE Online Customer Support Team

This is the last message i've received from this GM and he/she says the order was up for 6 hrs. But me trying to sell the item to the order at 2012.07.04 / 15:16:49 on Sly and having it disappear, and trying to sell it to the order again at roughly 16:16 - 16:17 on my other character, Mrs Slow Warspeeds, does not spread 6 hours. That's only 1 hour. And actually is only 16 minutes from the from the last time i was online, while he was not, and after a failed order 35-40 minutes before that, when he first logged off, with no standing order.

But i checked the market 4 times after he logged back on and i had the mod on Mrs Slow Warpspeeds, before the order actually appeared, and it only disappeared when i clicked the sell button maybe 10 seconds after the order showed up. I don't have the exact time as Mrs Slow Warpspeeds did not have the 27mil isk it would have cost her to place the sell order.

So my question is still "why was he able to cancel an order so quickly and i cannot?" And also "where did this 6 hours come from that A GM says the order was on the market for?" "If he had help, how does he and his help know who my alt, Mrs Slow Warpspeeds, is w/o my api? " I've not logged on to her for a year. And if there is a player that happened to beat me to the sell of this item around this time period and has any recolection of it, could you please reply? I need to know what I'm missing here. All this just doesn't add up. A GM didn't seem to comprehend what i was getting at and i figured this would be too much for a petition. Turns out it's been to much for one forum post.
Ifly Uwalk
Perkone
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-07-07 10:21:50 UTC
Sly Dealer wrote:
margin trading scam

Also, ibtl for discussing GM correspondence.
Sly Dealer
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2012-07-07 10:25:50 UTC
ibtl? And that is far more than just a scam. if i cannot place and immediately cancel buy orders, he/she should not be allowed to either.
Kailean
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-07-07 10:45:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Kailean
"in before the lock"

It's a margin trade scam.

Edit: and you're well able to do just the same as he did by training the Margin Trade Scam skill. It might be named slightly different in-game though.
Bobo Cindekela
Doomheim
#8 - 2012-07-07 11:39:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Bobo Cindekela
the margin trade skill can be used to place an order, then the isk is removed from wallet, either sent to alt or loaded into corp wallet

then when anyone tries to fill the order, it automatically cancels because there is no isk to pay for it

I once lost about 50m to this, your best bet is to train the margin trade skill and set up a similar scam in hopes of getting your money back from someone else and schooling them on the margin trade scam

protip, use a alt you arent playing much, dont want to have some crazy adding you to their watchlist and hunting you down.


or suck it up and chalk it up as a learning experience, if it seems too good to be true, it is. everytime.

You are about to engage in an arguement with a forum alt,  this is your final warning.
Bethany Ring
Perkone
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-07-07 11:44:50 UTC
Sly Dealer wrote:
. Please keep in mind that you can have other characters to help in such scams, {{not only your character and the limitation of time incorporated into it.}} What does this mean?<- Sly's question.

.

This means he had his other character ie alt account, buy the order the moment it was posted.

Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. [u]Albert Einstein[/u]
Jori McKie
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2012-07-07 11:45:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Jori McKie
First of all, do not post any GM conversation on this forum at all, especially not with the GM name.


Here is what happened to you. It has nothing to do with that you can't change an order for 5mins.
The guy behind Yoshitsuni is using a simple mechanic, he puts enough cash into the account he is buying from to pay all expenses but with the margin trading skill at 4 or 5 he has not enough ISK in the account to actually buy the item.
When you want to sell the item the buy order is immediatly canceled because .... not enough ISK to buy it from you.

You have one option to counter this scam depending on the margin trading skill of your opponent you have to sell the item at least below 55% (without checking it on paper, maybe wrong number) of the current buy order value before he has time to empty the wallet of the character buying the item.
After he has emptied the wallet you have no chance at all to sell the item to him.

Im short, instead of selling the item at the full buy order value you should have sold it at 55% and you would have sold it, assuming he hadn't enough time to empty the wallet.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar
Bethany Ring
Perkone
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-07-07 11:47:01 UTC
Jori McKie wrote:
First of all, do not post any GM conversation on this forum at all, especially not with the GM name.



Why not, GMs and their actions should be held in public viewing it is the best way to prevent corruption.

Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. [u]Albert Einstein[/u]
Jori McKie
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2012-07-07 11:49:18 UTC
Bethany Ring wrote:
Jori McKie wrote:
First of all, do not post any GM conversation on this forum at all, especially not with the GM name.



Why not, GMs and their actions should be held in public viewing it is the best way to prevent corruption.


CCP Forum rules, any GM conversation via the petition system is a private conversation.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar
Bethany Ring
Perkone
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-07-07 11:52:38 UTC
Jori McKie wrote:
Bethany Ring wrote:
Jori McKie wrote:
First of all, do not post any GM conversation on this forum at all, especially not with the GM name.



Why not, GMs and their actions should be held in public viewing it is the best way to prevent corruption.


CCP Forum rules, any GM conversation via the petition system is a private conversation.

Private to whom, the CCP per to another player, IE our pears. Why should anything that is from a Public entity that is a resource of us all. IE the players. Have the privilege of privacy, for their actions and conversation being a GM effect us all. This policy sounds strange.

Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. [u]Albert Einstein[/u]
Vellen Thoss
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2012-07-07 13:15:27 UTC
Interesting.

It's like real life check kiting. Get a check from someone, try to cash it, except it bounces because the person emptied the account to use to open another checking account.

To the OP, that sucks, at least you take responsibility for your situation, unlike a large number who whine and yell and scream for changes.
Emma Royd
Maddled Gommerils
#15 - 2012-07-07 18:16:53 UTC
I fell for a margin trading scam a while ago, sucks but meh I learned something that day so it wasn't a wasted experience.

Basically the Margin Trading skill allows you to essentially put a deposit up for an item you want to buy, you specify the amount you want to pay and unlike normal buy orders without the margin trading skill trained, they have to put all the isk up front, if you train margin trading, you only have to put up say 80% of the buy order price.

Once the order is placed, you empty your wallet, or corp wallet division to another char or division so when a shmuck buys your contract thinking they've got a chance to make a quick profit, and immediately sells the item for what appears to be a good buy order price, the process fails since there's not enough in the purchasers wallet to complete the transaction. So you're left with the item, and they're left with a smug grin since they've sold an officer mod on contracts for far more than it's market value.


I don't have a problem with most types of scammers, if that's how they want to play the game then it's up to them, but I don't like the margin trading scam, and personally I'd like to see CCP stop the abuse of the mechanic, but there's no real easy way to stop it, if you give the scammer a negative wallet balance as an overdraft, they could just recycle the character (unless you can't biomass a char with a negative wallet, I'm not sure) either that, or get rid of the skill completely, and give skill points back like they did when they got rid of the learning skills.

But that's my opinion, there'll be some good reasons people give to keep the skill, some will be genuine, some will be for scammers, and they're entitled to their opinion too.
Sly Dealer
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2012-07-07 18:21:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Sly Dealer
Well, shout out to Bobo and Jori for clearing that up. That's all i was seeking from the petition, and it wasn't being explained to me. I 100% understand what happened now. And although our conversation may have been private in that no one but me and CCP could read it as it was taking place through the petition system in-game, there was nothing to hide. A GM was not telling me what i needed to know and this information y'all have provided was all i needed. I've been had is all i can say now. Time to move on. Thanks 1.121 billion to both! :D

(am still curious where he came up with 6 hours though)
Daemon Ceed
Ice Fire Warriors
#17 - 2012-07-07 18:27:35 UTC
Bethany Ring wrote:
Jori McKie wrote:
Bethany Ring wrote:
Jori McKie wrote:
First of all, do not post any GM conversation on this forum at all, especially not with the GM name.



Why not, GMs and their actions should be held in public viewing it is the best way to prevent corruption.


CCP Forum rules, any GM conversation via the petition system is a private conversation.

Private to whom, the CCP per to another player, IE our pears. Why should anything that is from a Public entity that is a resource of us all. IE the players. Have the privilege of privacy, for their actions and conversation being a GM effect us all. This policy sounds strange.


Dude, why are you arguing with a CCP forum rule? You're gonna get yourself banned. Do you also argue with police about the legitimacy of a law after you broke it? It doesn't matter. It's the law. You aren't going to be able to change CCP's mind on this here in the forums and there sure as hell isn't anything any of us can do for you.
Sly Dealer
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2012-07-07 18:36:04 UTC
I apologize if i wasn't supposed to discuss this, but i was concerned and wasn't getting an appropriate explanation. There were only 3 of us involved, so i wanted the story to be clear. I'll admit it's been a few years since i read forum rules, as I've not posted here but maybe once or twice before, also been years. So my apologies to the GM's.
Sly Dealer
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2012-07-07 18:48:12 UTC
Sly Dealer wrote:
I apologize if i wasn't supposed to discuss this, but i was concerned and wasn't getting an appropriate explanation. There were only 3 of us involved, so i wanted the story to be clear. I'll admit it's been a few years since i read forum rules, as I've not posted here but maybe once or twice before, also been years. So my apologies to the GM's.


(changed the posted name, the GM is now simply referred to as "A GM")
Bethany Ring
Perkone
Caldari State
#20 - 2012-07-07 19:21:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Bethany Ring
Daemon Ceed wrote:

Dude, why are you arguing with a CCP forum rule? You're gonna get yourself banned. Do you also argue with police about the legitimacy of a law after you broke it? It doesn't matter. It's the law. You aren't going to be able to change CCP's mind on this here in the forums and there sure as hell isn't anything any of us can do for you.

Well, what you are saying has nothing to do with what i am talking about. I was not arguing about the rule, and I trying to understand the rule, how does it benefit anyone?

IE, Officers of the Law, all their actions are public knowledge, why do you think people cry foul when there is ever a cover up?

ADD: If I ever got banned for questioning the rules with out breaking them, then this game would certainly not be for me.

Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence.
Albert Einstein

Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. [u]Albert Einstein[/u]
12Next page