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So, Some European judge just gave every digital distributor a nightmare.

Author
TotalCareBear
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2012-07-04 21:01:31 UTC
Adalun Dey wrote:
Back in the days of yore - right after ancient but still before contemporary - people used audio and video cassettes to tape songs on the radio and movies on television. Nobody made a fuzz about it since it took effort and a fair deal of patience and once you finally got it, you were still stuck with commercials in between. Nowadays people download their songs from Youtube and their movies from Piratesomething. It seems not much has changed in the Yore +1 era, the activity remains the same, only the effort it requires has reduced.

Today more than ever it's important for artists, regardless of their field of expertise (songs, movies, games) to deliver quality to their customers. The publishers, in their ivory towers, are the only ones that still believe in outdated business models and a rigid control over their intellectual (sic) properties.

These days a PC game's success can be measured by the amount of pirated copies that are in circulation. Piracy has become a quality label. If your game isn't pirated, it's not worth your time and effort to download, let alone purchase, if it's a hit on the black market, it's a safe bet that it's worth checking out. Without piracy, the market for computer games would likely never have grown to its current size.


Didn't they add some type of taxes to cassettes?

If you have so great ideas about the publishing media, go work for a company that does just that. In fact, there are lots of "Indie" labels/brands/studios that do things the new way. It is all nice and easy to say "outdated business models", but fact is console games outsell pc games 5-10x, and pc sales are declining... pirating wasn't the only factor, but it sure did help make most pc releases console ports. To be honest, seeing publishers/developers upset with piracy isn't surprising at all.
Blane Xero
The Firestorm Cartel
#22 - 2012-07-04 21:25:07 UTC
Don't turn this thread into a debate on Piracy, there's no ******* need to start opening that endless debate here.

Resident Haruhiist since December 2008.

Laying claim to Out of Pod Experience since 2007, plain and simple. Keep the trash out of [u]Out Of Pod Experience[/u], If it's EVE Related or deserves a Lock, it does not belong here.

rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#23 - 2012-07-05 06:03:06 UTC
Yes, please don't pirate this thread, we worked hard to get a good one going and maintaining it. Then you freeloaders come in here and steal all the content and ruin it for us.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne

Sin Pew
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2012-07-05 06:54:56 UTC
Indeed, why complain that companies refuse to sell, I mean, it's evil to make business and all those pesky people trying to buy their stuff, geez...

That reminds me of when I was 8 and the sewer pipe had a leak. We used to get our water from a well because we lived country side and too far from the town by a few miles to be connected to water delivery system, unlike our neighbor. The water smelled really funny with that leak, but not as funny as the loo after my parents and my younger sister drank the water.
We knew our neighbor had clean water because they were on vacation and asked us to water his garden so I told my dad we could take some water from the tap we connected the garden hose to, but my dad told me "No son, that would be thievery".
The only other beverages we had at the time was whiskey and being holiday, we couldn't buy any water since the store was closed. So I don't remember all the details of that first day of water shortage, because after a glass whiskey it all went fuzzy, but I slept really well.
The next morning, I woke up with the worst headache I'd ever had at the time, and while eating my breakfast I saw my dad carry our dog to the truck with a shovel, I didn't see my dog again and dad told me later that dogs can't handle whiskey very well.
The cramps were really strong and we all felt a bit weak, the house had this funny smell and sewer company could only send a team to repair the pipe on the next day, so I asked my dad if we shouldn't get some water from the neighbor's tap, but he remained firm and again told me this would be thievery.
I didn't drink much of the whiskey and my head was already starting to feel fuzzy when I noticed my sister was alseep, she had had another bad diarhea and I remember it made me giggle to see her lips blue. The details are, again, sparse, but I remember my mother yelling at my father, trying to wake my sister up but she was like a rag doll in her arms and it made me laugh, or maybe it was the whiskey. After a while, my mother stormed out of the house and returned a few minutes later with a few bottle of water. Meanwhile, my dad carried my little sister to the truck with a shovel and I never saw her again. We both drank water from our neighbor's tap the remaining days until the sewer pipe got repaired, my dad only drank whiskey.

[i]"haiku are easy, But sometimes they don't make sense, Refrigerator."[/i]

Morgorathi
Euaemon
#25 - 2012-07-05 07:00:30 UTC
Could you fix the title please?

It sounds like "A European Judge just gave Steam/EA/Impulse/GOG/etc a Pirate faction battle ship"

When it is really "Sound minded individual told greedy fucks to go **** themselves if they think you can't resell a digital game"

When did Crime & Punishment become the mercenary employment board?

Kristil Lorenso Kristil
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#26 - 2012-07-05 10:12:01 UTC
Piracy is wrong
BUT sometimes its only way of getting your stuff.

This is new age and in this age there is no longer "company doesn't want to sell in that country". Many countries come together and makes unions so that it helps them improve marketing, security, military ett. and they must be respected as such.

EU just made it clear with this decision.
I believe that if special customer WANTS to buy something, no one have right to deny it. They might ask additional fee for the hassle thought.

The times when markets could tell theyre customers "**** off, we don't want you to buy here!!!" are LONG GONE.
Period.

I completely agree with this decision.

Blane Xero
The Firestorm Cartel
#27 - 2012-07-05 16:05:34 UTC
Morgorathi wrote:
Could you fix the title please?

It sounds like "A European Judge just gave Steam/EA/Impulse/GOG/etc a Pirate faction battle ship"

When it is really "Sound minded individual told greedy fucks to go **** themselves if they think you can't resell a digital game"

I'll fix it if you pay me to. :)

Kristil Lorenso Kristil wrote:
Piracy is wrong


I could go into a long tirade about how the labelling of piracy as such doesn't make sense and how theft is only theft when something is relocated [and how online theft should probably be called online counterfeiting at ~most~]. And how the double standard most companies employ when they claim you are only ever purchasing the license to use the game and not the game [and therefor, why is downloading a torrent of game data illegal if you only want to be liable for the string of digits unlocking said data].

But I'm not going to, so please don't make me. My sole concern within this thread is how the companies like Valve, Ea, and Paradox [People behind Gamersgate] decide to adapt their model to allow for these imposed changes should the law(s) come into effect.

Resident Haruhiist since December 2008.

Laying claim to Out of Pod Experience since 2007, plain and simple. Keep the trash out of [u]Out Of Pod Experience[/u], If it's EVE Related or deserves a Lock, it does not belong here.

Kristil Lorenso Kristil
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#28 - 2012-07-05 17:12:39 UTC
Fine, got the point... Lol

I'm just trying not to think about what those companies might or might not do, specially since i cant change that either. Big smile
Blane Xero
The Firestorm Cartel
#29 - 2012-07-05 18:18:20 UTC
Kristil Lorenso Kristil wrote:
Fine, got the point... Lol

I'm just trying not to think about what those companies might or might not do, specially since i cant change that either. Big smile
What are you saying! You can change it! You just need to belieeeeve!


*cough*

Resident Haruhiist since December 2008.

Laying claim to Out of Pod Experience since 2007, plain and simple. Keep the trash out of [u]Out Of Pod Experience[/u], If it's EVE Related or deserves a Lock, it does not belong here.

Cierejai
Biofuel Productions
#30 - 2012-07-06 11:19:17 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
On piracy: That I can't stop you from stealing my work does not mean neither that my work is worthless nor that you have a "right" to take it for free.




Piracy is ok if you use it as a free review system and purchase the product at a later date.
Alain Kinsella
#31 - 2012-07-07 05:46:54 UTC
Blane Xero wrote:
My sole concern within this thread is how the companies like Valve, Ea, and Paradox [People behind Gamersgate] decide to adapt their model to allow for these imposed changes should the law(s) come into effect.


Fair enough. So, I'll go back to my mentioning of GameTap here.

Is their model (flat monthly fee for use of all games in library) the way to go then? Steam has the best chance of making that work, if they offered subs by category (again, I compare to cable channel packages).

"The Meta Game does not stop at the game. Ever."

Currently Retired / Semi-Casual (pending changes to RL concerns).

Sin Pew
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2012-07-07 11:15:21 UTC
Alain Kinsella wrote:
Blane Xero wrote:
My sole concern within this thread is how the companies like Valve, Ea, and Paradox [People behind Gamersgate] decide to adapt their model to allow for these imposed changes should the law(s) come into effect.


Fair enough. So, I'll go back to my mentioning of GameTap here.

Is their model (flat monthly fee for use of all games in library) the way to go then? Steam has the best chance of making that work, if they offered subs by category (again, I compare to cable channel packages).
Game companies have traded the media for online services and delivery.
The manufacturing and supplying costs have switched from physical to digital and there's more and more games you can't play without an internet connection, be it only for copy validation when you launch the game.
Before that, if you had a game but the company closed you could still play the game. Now, if Bioware shuts down their servers, no more Dragon Age, no more Mass Effect 2 and onwards (simple example).
A company like Microsoft, is very likely to still be around in 10 years or so, but if they decide to close the online validation of a game because it isn't popular enough to justify the costs of keeping its associated services up, you're screwed, just like you're screwed if the company hosting the online services for a game closes.

The main issue isn't about trading game licenses, but relying on a provider to maintain an online service for the game you bought. The convenience of digital game stores made people accept this reliability and the fact that they no longer own the game. This judge's decision is somehow meaningless, even if you could trade licenses, you would still need the online service associated with it for the license to have any value.

Simply put, the big companies like EA/Microsoft/Valve/etc. own the market and will probably continue to do so now they've secured it. Whether they provide an online license bazaar or not, won't cause a major change for them, it's just another online service to build that will provide them benefits, through sales taxes or something. In a way, it can contribute to keep them going and ensure you can still play your games after a few years, but I find it annoying how it evolved, because the game prices are still the same while it's only a rental now, you don't pay the same price when renting a DVD as you would when buying it.

A monthly fee for a package? maybe, if it's priced decently and allows easy opt-out when you don't play games from that company for a couple months or more. Maybe it would become an indicator of their game's popularity, but with the current online services, I'm sure they already have such monitoring, just don't think they give a f*** about it as long as the game sells, even if the owners didn't like the game and only played it a couple times, they got the money.

[i]"haiku are easy, But sometimes they don't make sense, Refrigerator."[/i]

Blastcaps Madullier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#33 - 2012-07-08 03:10:54 UTC
AlleyKat wrote:
Nirnias Stirrum wrote:
And people wonder why pirating is rampant? It's 'cause of overly-priced crap games.


I think it's more than that, 'like kids that were denied allowance by their parents and decide to d/l pirated/hacked/leaked software.

Software companies do a lot to help consumers make an informed choice about what they buy, like free trials/demos of games (CCP), plenty of preview information, trailers, gameplay dev blogs; and there is little excuse for pirating.

It's a fuckin' cop-out to say that because X is bad, you should't have to pay for it.

Only legal time you can do that is in a resturant - which is why the attendance visits you minutes after the food is delivered to ask 'if everything is okay with the lobster thermidor'. If not, your food is taken away; if yes, you get the bill.

AK



actually if you listen to valve aka steam "piracy is a customer service issue"..

http://torrentfreak.com/valve-piracy-is-a-service-issue-111025/

and funnily enough one of EMI bosses said same....

http://torrentfreak.com/emi-boss-opposes-sopa-says-piracy-is-a-service-issue-120125/
Blastcaps Madullier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#34 - 2012-07-08 03:14:51 UTC
Reiisha wrote:
Nirnias Stirrum wrote:
There is not a game released since the invention of electronic gaming that has not been cracked yet.


TrackMania Original. The patches are required to play and they have not been cracked :)


thats just a matter of time.
Blastcaps Madullier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#35 - 2012-07-08 03:17:19 UTC
Blane Xero wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Blane Xero wrote:
And this is why.

I'll say it right now, I have no idea how to feel about this. It could be a really good thing, or it could just inspire companies like Valve and EA to put us through more consumer hell just so they keep their control at the cost of our experience.

It has fire reaching ramifications on everything that is sold digitally, and could as noted in the article even have consequences for companies who are developing their next-gen consoles around digital copies and restricted re-sale.

G.G Sir European Judge. You just started a turkey shoot, either way this goes.



I'm pretty much OK with giving problems to a business model that claims that you haven't really "bought" your software when it suits them, but then throws you under a bus when you you try and exercise your own rights if that were true.

If I'm buying the software then the copy I have purchased is mine to do with as I please, including being resold.

If I'm leasing the software, then the lessee doesn't get to say "well we don't wanna so we're not gonna" when it doesn't work correctly or isn't the correct version for my requirements.

I agree with you about this on every level, but my main concern is that in an effort to give European consumers more rights over what they own, they will simply push the sellers into more questionable business Ethics like limiting each License to a 2 year period or something similar, and instead of this being a positive it becomes a positive we never see the effects of.

On the other hand, all it takes is one entity [Steam, Gamersgate being most likely two] to adopt this in the truest fashion and it becomes suicide for anyone else to attempt to go the other route.

This also has massive possible effects on the Consoles currently in development, as most rumours have them as Digital Distribution based, and even then this also has some potentially large side-effects on the physical re-sale market [which developers and publishers have been trying to lock down for years now].



iirc from what I've heard, sony with the PS4 are planning on slapping a fee on pre owned games, ie you have to pay them a fee to actually use the second hand game you bought from x shop, despite the fact sony already got paid for it when someone bought the game originally and iirc Xbox (720?) is going to require always on internet connection, so you go somewhere with no internet, good luck... lol
Blastcaps Madullier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#36 - 2012-07-08 03:26:17 UTC
TotalCareBear wrote:
Sin Pew wrote:

Slowly, those things acquired in digital form, lose their overal value in the eye of the customer, because the ownership feeling is lessened by the medium itself, you don't really own a digital album like you own a good old record. If Valve decides you breached some EULA, they can shut it down for you and you're screwed, but if you bought a bootleg record of a band in another country that isn't distributed in your own country, what can they do about it? also, because of the legal bunkers the distributors have put in place, you can't offer/trade/exchange what you supposedly own, the way you could before the digital era. This is subtle, but is a way for the distributors to generate more sales if they can manage to lock down their digital product enough. They're further supported by governments who vote laws under the lobbying pressure to increase their control over their products' usage. ACTA/SOPA to name a few.

I can't speak for other countries, but here, in France, the situation is worth a Kafka story. We have taxes adding up at every possible levels to raise more and more funds for the rights holders, and this isn't the authors, but the majors/companies. Those companies managed to make the governments vote taxes in so many ways that they earn money at every step of the supply chain and even more. You pay the copyrights when first purchasing a song, then you pay copyrights when downloading it because the provider has to pay a tax that is added to the monthly fee of your internet access, then another tax is included in the purchase price of each storage device capable of storing digital medias, be it flash cards, hard drives, cdroms and extending to every device including a drive like cameras... The DGFiP (french IRS), also has a historical tax on TV sets you have to pay when you own a TV, whether you bought it or had it from a relative, that also covers the copyrights.


What do you want them to do, if their Intellectual Property Rights violated are just ignored? It is very clear, that their IP rights are being violated, but it is too widespread for the authorities to arrest everyone, so they come up with a moderate solution that puts taxes on media carriers... Is that really so horrible?

Quote:

I often buy records on a website called discogs, it's a platform allowing people to buy and sell used records, either vinyls, cd or even tapes, I can get records that were never sold in France, but if I want to listen to those tunes on a MP3 player, I have to rip it myself or get it through P2P, because the super clever companies selling tunes have adapted to the digital era and sell tunes online, but they still apply 20th century licensing and those records I could buy from a belgian guy, I can't buy them digitally because beatport, juno, djdownload, doesn't have a license to sell some tunes to some countries. I can bypass that with use of a proxy system, but then it makes my digitally purchased copy, illegal in my country despite the physical copy stored in my record box. So getting it through P2P is far less of a hassle.

Also, there is still some contents, video games, movies, albums, with delayed releases over the world even though they're digitally distributed. While I can understand that 10 years ago, shipping logistics could be a meaningful cost and a real nightmare, with the internet that barrier is removed, but they continue to operate with this same old fashion.


Doesn't a company have a right to market/sell their product as they wish? Why should they be forced to sell stuff in France, if they don't want to/aren't ready/whatever?

Quote:

It is these very same companies, that will always complain about their products being cracked and hacked and how much money they lose over it, that will pressure the governments to vote laws granting them more and more control over their customers, that generate the will to hack/crack their products with their abuse of outdated processes that in fact restrict their customers from accessing the products even when they want to legally buy them.

So yeah, there's little excuse to piracy, but they don't do anything to entice people in buying their products, and I won't discuss the quality of today's music/movie/game hits, tailored to be marketted "for the public" and generate the buzz (read, advertise and sell for 4 months then forget).


Again, if you do not like something... absolutely no one is forcing you to download new games/films/music. Go play indy games, create your own media or just use the old stuff.

Piracy is sooo widespread by now, too hard to stop it now... but glorifying it is just stupid.


so is sticking to a outdated business model and burying your head in the sand refusing point blank to adapt and evolve your business model, the days of region control and a monopily on content where you can rip the artists off by forcing them to sign the rights to their work over to you (a label) and only paying them a pittence along with being able to charge whatever the hell you feel like are dead, business and business models adapt and evolve or they die simple as.
A LOT of us were around for the change over from LP to CD and remember the prices going throught the roof "new technology" we were told as the reason for concerts suddenly costing a arm and a leg, etc etc.

with EVERY technical inovation the content industrys screamed blue murder saying how abc xyz tech is going to kill the industry, from the introduction of "canned" music in cinemas from live, the radio, audio cassets, VHS/beta max and demanded further laws to "protect" them.

also why should people have to pay for content they have already paid for but due to a new format they then are expected to go buy the same stuff all over again? think vhs-dvd for example.
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