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Incarna/WiS Disappointment

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Author
CCP Bayesian
#381 - 2012-07-04 15:31:51 UTC
The Antiquarian wrote:
Dear CCP Bayesian, could you politely "poke" our CCP t0rfifrans and kindly have him announce CCP's decision regarding the Ishukone Special Edition shirt & Women Executor (Red/Gold)? He promised that he will provide with the answers on Friday, but it's already been five days now.


I poked him and the answer is that it's still being worked on.

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter

Tony Two Bullet
Monocle Madness
#382 - 2012-07-04 15:41:21 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Rees Noturana wrote:
How much of the social space work was completed before the anti-wis people started their campaign? I think it will make a nice complement to areas that have more active gameplay since the technology will be in place.


A lot of the ideas work was completed as well as a nice implementation of Slay but a lot of the technology is still in a really early stages. You can get multiple people into an environment and walk around together but there is a relatively large gap between that and something that would be usable.

Rees Noturana wrote:
The incredible detail of the CQ is great but the performance suffers for it. Has there been any work done to improve that?


None beyond general optimisations to the graphics engine, Trinity, we're a small team and don't have the expertise to do that well or quickly.



Give us establishments with full social gameplay and games.

Monocle Madness has plans. /me rubs hands Bear
Tony Two Bullet
Monocle Madness
#383 - 2012-07-04 15:42:01 UTC
CCP RedDawn wrote:
Rees Noturana wrote:
The NeX store pricing fiasco was probably an even bigger reason that WiS stalled out. At least the second round pricing seems in line with expectations.


The team wholeheartedly agree with the cheaper pricing structure. Big smile


Absolutely. Thanks for smartening up!
Commissar Kate
NulzSec
#384 - 2012-07-04 16:04:42 UTC
Speaking of the NeX store and Incarna.

When are you guys gonna fix the underwear bug that has been in game since the Incarna expansion. I'd like to use some of the new stuff in the NeX store but until the bug is fixed my character will just look silly. http://i.imgur.com/pVHaf.png


CCP RedDawn
C C P
C C P Alliance
#385 - 2012-07-04 16:11:36 UTC
Commissar Kate wrote:
Speaking of the NeX store and Incarna.

When are you guys gonna fix the underwear bug that has been in game since the Incarna expansion. I'd like to use some of the new stuff in the NeX store but until the bug is fixed my character will just look silly. http://i.imgur.com/pVHaf.png





Yup, we have known of this bra defect for a long, long time. Unfortunately it's just been a matter of prioritisation.
To be honest most of our defect fixes have suffered due to our prototyping efforts but i'll raise this one up again and push for a fix.

Team Genesis

The Antiquarian
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#386 - 2012-07-04 16:21:32 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
The Antiquarian wrote:
Dear CCP Bayesian, could you politely "poke" our CCP t0rfifrans and kindly have him announce CCP's decision regarding the Ishukone Special Edition shirt & Women Executor (Red/Gold)? He promised that he will provide with the answers on Friday, but it's already been five days now.


I poked him and the answer is that it's still being worked on.


Thank you very much!!!!!
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#387 - 2012-07-04 16:25:01 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:

No dedicated experienced explorer is going to go into these sites and risk losing his clone, his implants, his ship and his loot. Not to mention the time and isk that will be spent to replace everything including upgrading a new medical clone. The only ones who will be able to take advantage of this new content will be very large player corps and null sec alliances.


With all due respect, you are assuming an awful lot here.

We don't how/if these new exploration sites will be implemented in EVE. The developer posting in this thread is just posting some initial ideas not the final game design.

If something like this is introduced to high security space you will not need friend to defend you because there will be little risk of being attacked. The only thing you are likely to need a group for is to enable you to complete the site faster, and there is nothing wrong with that. Just like incursions and high level sleeper sites, you need multiple people to do them, so why should this be different?

Edit: i replied to this before i saw the devs response so sorry if i reiterated what he already said.

My statement is not an assumption, it's a fact. My replies are based on viewing the Prototype Demo and comments made by the Devs, along with reading all the replies posted in this thread by die hard PvP fanatics. Most dedicated explorers are highly skilled, use top of the line equipment, have implants installed and use a T3 Cruiser which when destroyed, results in a loss of skillpoints.

NPC's don't attack Pods anywhere so warping out is not a problem when ship is destroyed. A player can also warp their Pod out after their ship is destroyed by other players unless they are surprised, panic or fumble around with the controls. If they remain calm, then a Pod loss is due to being warp scrammed or smart bombed by the aggressors.

I already explained how making it a group based content will cut out a lot of people being able to engage in this activity. Incursions is is based on group activity with Logistics support. High level sleeper sites are usually done by multiple members belonging to the same player corp, again usually supported by Logistics as well. In both cases they aren't looking to kill each other.

Having group activity in these new Avatar sites is fine, but the constant demand to focus on the ability to 'Knife' another Avatar in the back is simply more grief play, nothing more. There's already plenty of that in this game. How about having Avatar game play focus more on the other side of the coin, such as support with Logistics? That's a very big aspect of this game which is greatly overlooked.

I already posted how the sites could work via the different security sectors in Eve. I'll expand on it some more.

The main focus should be a race to get the loot supported by Logistics team work. Ships dock in the site which gives no indication that it's occupied. Capsuleers use Drone Clones (represented by their Avatars when active) that are stowed in their Cargohold which are launched after docking. If the Drone Clone dies, the player respawns back in their ship where they can either launch another available Drone Clone or they undock from the site to get more Drone Clones. When site is completed, it despawns.

High sec - up to 3 players per group, 3 groups allowed. If you initiate Avatar PvP action within the site, you incur GCC timer with large security status hit. Site has strong interior weapons (Concord) that kills aggressor. The site can not be destroyed.

Low sec - up to 6 players per group, 6 groups allowed. If you initiate Avatar PvP action within the site, you incur GCC timer with small security status hit. Site has weak interior weapons that open fire on aggressor while GCC is active. The site can not be destroyed.

Null sec - up to 8 players per group, 8 groups allowed. You can initiate Avatar PvP action within the site. Site has no interior weapons. The site can be destroyed.

I'd elaborate more but I'm tired now.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#388 - 2012-07-04 16:32:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
The idea of "space" is important to EVE especially as we get into the environment of walking in stations. I know on a technical level, the concepts I'm going to portray aren't going to be completely effectual, but let's just put the thoughts out there as an expression of our vision of complete SCI FI Awesome-sauceness for EVE.

The fundamental value of "space" is that it makes the world feel large and the mind fills in the gaps. It's the first reaction you get from the rookie EVE player that **** seems so damned big. 8 Years into the game, I still get the sensation of course, but I have wrapped my noggin around most of the fundamental building blocks of EVE's aspects and the sensation, as with many vets, is diminished, but still present.

How does that change with WIS?

Well... opening up the vision to all options. The idea of finding a seedy corner of the station I'm in and even if there is no danger, but just "walking" through a "Dark alley" is a cool experience in my head. Good gameplay? Probably not, but immersive? Yes.

This is one of the reasons that I liked that EVE did not want any jogging in open social spaces.

Although many feel "restricted", the restriction simply needs to be funneled into an EXPERIENCE. Take for example a horror game. In a lot of those games you're quite literally restricted in actions, sometimes even unable to run, but the experience turns from frustration into "Fear".

The reason I LIKE the fact we can't run in WIS is because I don't run around all over the place in my real life, so why the hell would I do it in a social space? The restriction is because the average gamer has A.D.D (and I don't mean that in a negative way) and wants to get more input faster, juicier, more quickly. So, the walking is just a hindrance to getting to the "good stuff". But, the question is how do you make that into an EXPERIENCE of walking.

What can we do while walking besides slowly anticipating getting to the next destination?

To draw some parallels on why the human mind and body don't want to run constantly in the physical world :

#1 - Jogging is tiring and distracting.
#2 - Our spaces aren't designed for jogging.
#3 - Physiologically, our mind wants to preserve energy, not expend it.

These are mostly negatives as to why we don't jog. There are a few positives though :

#4 - Walking allows us to react better, more time to react to stimulus
#5 - Walking is socially more acceptable

For us points #2, #4 and #5 is the most acceptable reason to enforce walking in WIS since we want to promote a social environment.

Major issue for walking in WIS in social places is that we generally don't have a lot to say in MMO's from point A to point B to make walking more socially acceptable (#5). But, maybe this will develop when we have spaces long enough to walk around in? Will someone ever say "Let's take a walk and talk?" Is there a way to replicate the satisfaction of a leisurely walk in a virtual space with current tech?

For #4, is there anything that can happen while walking from point A to point B in a WIS session that would require me to react? Most FPMMO gamers are used to WOW land where despite the random mob, almost NOTHING will really interrupt your run from point A to B that requires interaction.

Back to the beginning :

Currently we have a CQ. Then Prototyping is focusing on Exploration gameplay, and now we the WIS minded players want a middle ground between CQ and the Exploration gameplay for social interaction.

Why?

It makes EVE more immersive. So if the end goal of Exploration gameplay is to give a REASON to step out of your pod to do things, and the social space's goal is immersion, how do we accomplish immersion?

Well, immersion is a bit tough when it comes to EVE because we're a sandbox and not a theme park. To some degree, theme parks are easier to make immersive on a superficial level. But they disintegrate after that because the players themselves never become an immersive part of the experience (they become the audience, not a dynamic). EVE does have the immersion through the players, but how will that translate to WIS?

The custom establishment system really is the only answer. But, establishments shouldn't be the only target of social spaces. But also what's in between those establishments. Alleys, walkways, (with NPCs below?) add to the experience.

The typical argument is going to be that if I can do it in my ship, why do I want to step out of my ship to do it? Takes longer, etc, etc. Well, psychologically, it only takes a few small perks to make people change that opinion. It becomes a judgement call for the person. If I do my trading while in the Stock Market establishment then I get 1% less taxes. Will everyone care? No. Some will, some won't. But now you have a reason. That's all that's really needed.

EVE social spaces to me should really feel like integrated bazaars. Tight spaces with establishments saddled by each other. The idea of huge over-arching space like a mall is a concept of modern architecture that is rapidly and quickly changing (read: New Urbanism).

Making tight easily navigated, easily traversed spaces for social and environmental reasons is the real way of "human" sized experiences. Walking becomes less of a hassle in tighter spaces, and the "Grandness" of bigger space can be alluded to in other ways.

This should be how EVEs Social spaces feel >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3ow78NdvQ0

Maybe with less rain and crazy effects. But tight spaces, lots of things happening at every corner without the need for huge expanses. If you want a private space, then i recommend you buy an establishment or find an establishment that caters to private space.

I know the idea of a VIP space was a pivotal one for keeping the capsuleers separate from the "everyday", but I don't think the idea of VIP should be "huge and massive space" to not want to walk around in.

Where I am.

DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#389 - 2012-07-04 16:33:41 UTC
Price Check Aisle3 wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Obviously you didn't bother to actually read my entire reply.

Oh, I did, and it was just the normal doom-and-gloom crap we see every time a new features comes around that introduces more competition into EVE.

DeMichael Crimson wrote:
It's clear you don't do exploration or any PvE content for that matter. Seems you spend a lot of time trolling these forums instead. Also you have no clue who I am, what I do or where I go in this game.

When I'm not being a jackass with my buds or getting blown up by people I really shouldn't be tangling with, I'm doing low-sec exploration or ratting of some sort. Who are you, some sort of carebear prince?

DeMichael Crimson wrote:
No dedicated experienced explorer is going to go into these sites and risk losing his clone, his implants, his ship and his loot. Not to mention the time and isk that will be spent to replace everything including upgrading a new medical clone. The only ones who will be able to take advantage of this new content will be very large player corps and null sec alliances.

We haven't even really seen the feature or how it will interact with FIS, it's still being prototyped.

At some point someone will figure out how to effectively solo the content and there will be numerous guides written on how to avoid X bad guy and how to solve X puzzle to remove all sense of challenge. Who knows, maybe docking one of these features will protect your ship for a limited time, and a gang stopping by to blow up the station might introduce a timer much like sov warfare (although not nearly as tedious!) so that you have a chance to get away.

Besides, if it's that dangerous to dock up your ship in order to run one of these sites, people will start doing exploration in Arbitrators and Vexors. Point being, though, the sites will get run, and probably by small gangs interested in making a big score.

I'm going to say you're a liar and a troll since your character has neutral security status, no killboard record and is only 4 months old.
CCP t0rfifrans
C C P
C C P Alliance
#390 - 2012-07-04 16:41:12 UTC
CCP RedDawn wrote:
Rees Noturana wrote:
The NeX store pricing fiasco was probably an even bigger reason that WiS stalled out. At least the second round pricing seems in line with expectations.


The team wholeheartedly agree with the cheaper pricing structure. Big smile

Indeed. Although it would be amusing to put out a bi-monocle ( spectacle ) at double the price of the old monocles just for the troll of it.

But seriously, yes, we felt that this kind of pricing made much more sense, and we see it in how the items are selling now, that once the price was brought down and we added interesting designs, people are buying them. We'd like to put out more distinctive stuff, like the full body rubber female suits seen on Singularity, and a full body female leather strap catsuit, both which are important work attire for any serious capsuleer. If the clothes we're putting out now at lower prices sell well, we are very likely to kick off the manufacturing pipeline again, where we were planning to do more exotic ( cyberpunk, pirate etc ) clothes, than the more plain business and military clothes we have now.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#391 - 2012-07-04 16:44:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Mallak Azaria
CCP t0rfifrans wrote:

Indeed. Although it would be amusing to put out a bi-monocle ( spectacle ) at double the price of the old monocles just for the troll of it.


I approve of this. Can we also have peenie beanies? And rubber/leather attire for men aswell.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#392 - 2012-07-04 16:53:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
Ways to bring the prototyping gameplay and the social gameplay together through the EVE FIS is as follows :

I'm dubbing Exploration Prototyping :: LFS (Looking for Stuff)

#1 - Players can fabricate fake implants that look identical to the ones they find in LFS. These implants can only be identified by players in person. Meaning that people sitting in a ship might risk buying fake implants if they don't get out and verify the goods. Opens up a whole new market section really. And give something for the scammers to do besides just spam Jita local constantly. (Ok, this might lead to more spamming, but at least it will be more INTERESTING spamming).

#2 - Unsubbed, un-PLEXed players can still log in to EVE and Walk around but can't fly around, they can be picked up by players and taken to LFS sites to do content by players in ships that don't want to do LFS content but still want the goods. Providing a work force, and still pivoting on FIS content as the hinge for anyone who doesn't have their Pilots License Extended. Would allow for ways for players to earn ISK to earn PLEX to do Flying content >> More money for CCP.

#3 - Allow booster products to be found in LFS sites also. Convert this back into the Black Market Establishment idea you had before, and generating more reasons to enforce WIS stuff through LFS into the FIS experience.

#4 - Allow Dust514 weapons blueprints to be found in LFS that can be sold to bunnies. Let bunnies get on WIS and purchase the stuff on station = more people on WIS.

#5 - Allow the new POS system to allow for "Space bars" and "Space captain's quarters" that are isolated establishments in space that you can dock and trade for goods/implants. There is no "Station Market" to buy off the space market (to stay hidden from stations and null sec holders), so that means you have to dock to purchase and know that the hidden shady hide out is already there ahead of time (or find it luckily through scanning).

Where I am.

Price Check Aisle3
#393 - 2012-07-04 16:53:10 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
I'm going to say you're a liar and a troll since your character has neutral security status, no killboard record and is only 4 months old.

You're pretty unobservant, DMC, I'm going to add you to my list of terrible posters.
  • Karl Hobb IATS
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#394 - 2012-07-04 17:08:55 UTC
CCP t0rfifrans wrote:

But seriously, yes, we felt that this kind of pricing made much more sense, and we see it in how the items are selling now, that once the price was brought down and we added interesting designs, people are buying them. We'd like to put out more distinctive stuff, like the full body rubber female suits seen on Singularity, and a full body female leather strap catsuit, both which are important work attire for any serious capsuleer. If the clothes we're putting out now at lower prices sell well, we are very likely to kick off the manufacturing pipeline again, where we were planning to do more exotic ( cyberpunk, pirate etc ) clothes, than the more plain business and military clothes we have now.



I spent some of my ultra-valuable Free Aurum just to make sure you'd get that message Pirate

Where I am.

Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
#395 - 2012-07-04 17:15:33 UTC
CCP t0rfifrans wrote:
CCP RedDawn wrote:
Rees Noturana wrote:
The NeX store pricing fiasco was probably an even bigger reason that WiS stalled out. At least the second round pricing seems in line with expectations.


The team wholeheartedly agree with the cheaper pricing structure. Big smile

Indeed. Although it would be amusing to put out a bi-monocle ( spectacle ) at double the price of the old monocles just for the troll of it.

But seriously, yes, we felt that this kind of pricing made much more sense, and we see it in how the items are selling now, that once the price was brought down and we added interesting designs, people are buying them. We'd like to put out more distinctive stuff, like the full body rubber female suits seen on Singularity, and a full body female leather strap catsuit, both which are important work attire for any serious capsuleer. If the clothes we're putting out now at lower prices sell well, we are very likely to kick off the manufacturing pipeline again, where we were planning to do more exotic ( cyberpunk, pirate etc ) clothes, than the more plain business and military clothes we have now.


For now, just getting the remaining color variations into the market would be cool since they are already done.

+1 for trolling with bionicles.

_ _

Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#396 - 2012-07-04 17:24:28 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
I'm going to say you're a liar and a troll since your character has neutral security status, no killboard record and is only 4 months old.


This can't be the real DMC. The real DMC gets annoyed when people call him names & would never stoop so low.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
#397 - 2012-07-04 18:13:29 UTC
Some day I hope CCP does iterate on WiS. Maybe they can take baby steps so it isn't too onerous. The problem with WiS development was that it appeared to remove resources from the space development part of the game...which was problematic.

The other problem with WiS as I see it is there's no significant purpose for it that ties into what we have today. There needs to be some kind of game mechanics, essential game mechancs, tied to it so that all the spaceship cowboys actually WANT to participate in it to some degree. I've read dozens of ideas around this but nothing really jumped off the pages at me as "we have to have this in EVE ASAP!"
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#398 - 2012-07-04 18:18:46 UTC
Jett0 wrote:
There seems to a lot more hate for the idea of avatar gameplay now than during Incarna.

Monoclegate wasn't about the concept. It was about delayed promises and scant information. WiS just kinda got caught in the middle.

I liked what Incarna demonstrated about EVE's potential, but go look at the official expansion features page. Then compare it to Crucible and Inferno.


you mean the opposite? This thread is like 90% support, what are you smoking?

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg

Lilliana Stelles
#399 - 2012-07-04 18:21:39 UTC
CCP t0rfifrans wrote:
CCP RedDawn wrote:
Rees Noturana wrote:
The NeX store pricing fiasco was probably an even bigger reason that WiS stalled out. At least the second round pricing seems in line with expectations.


The team wholeheartedly agree with the cheaper pricing structure. Big smile

Indeed. Although it would be amusing to put out a bi-monocle ( spectacle ) at double the price of the old monocles just for the troll of it.

But seriously, yes, we felt that this kind of pricing made much more sense, and we see it in how the items are selling now, that once the price was brought down and we added interesting designs, people are buying them. We'd like to put out more distinctive stuff, like the full body rubber female suits seen on Singularity, and a full body female leather strap catsuit, both which are important work attire for any serious capsuleer. If the clothes we're putting out now at lower prices sell well, we are very likely to kick off the manufacturing pipeline again, where we were planning to do more exotic ( cyberpunk, pirate etc ) clothes, than the more plain business and military clothes we have now.


Are these items from SISI planned for release in the near future? There was also some mention of eyeglasses earlier. If the items are finished (or nearly finished), why is there such a delay before they are implemented into the game?

Not a forum alt. 

Jett0
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#400 - 2012-07-04 18:29:45 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:
Jett0 wrote:
There seems to a lot more hate for the idea of avatar gameplay now than during Incarna.

Monoclegate wasn't about the concept. It was about delayed promises and scant information. WiS just kinda got caught in the middle.

I liked what Incarna demonstrated about EVE's potential, but go look at the official expansion features page. Then compare it to Crucible and Inferno.


you mean the opposite? This thread is like 90% support, what are you smoking?


Referring to the playerbase as a whole.

And I got the good stuff. Want some?

Occasionally plays sober