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Skill Training Times -- What is the Underlying Logic/Mechanic
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#21 - 2012-07-03 19:34:26 UTC
Urgg Boolean wrote:
So, 140 hours for a real skill that is on my resume versus 336 hours for a fake skill only usable in EvE. That's a ridiculous difference even accounting for an unoptimized brain mapping.
140 hours for the basic-to-medium theories (and little applicability) of a very narrow field compared to 474 hours to be the best in the world at interpreting sensory data to determine the global distribution of a large number of specific resources. Seems reasonable. I'd expect the same real-world knowledge to take about 15–20 years…

Quote:
This is not about instant gratification. I simply don't think fake skills should take LONGER than real college level science.
Why not? Lots about hobbies takes far longer than college-level science (especially since the latter is purposefully designed to be dealt with really quickly).
Implying Implications
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2012-07-03 19:41:41 UTC
I think you're playing the wrong game.

hello
Zoe Athame
Don't Lose Your Way
#23 - 2012-07-03 19:44:21 UTC
Implying Implications wrote:
I think you're playing the wrong game.


What other MMO lets you join a super awesome PvP group without leveling up first?
Gabriel Z
Krabulous
#24 - 2012-07-03 19:50:24 UTC
Comparing in game training times to out of game ones is never going to make much sense. The physics involved in Jump Portal Generation will take hundreds of years to develop.

My original post is more about me discovering a gap between expectations I had before I entered the game (its Ender's Game! Fleets! Non-stop Battle Room!) and the reality of the game's mechanics. I didn't care much for the PvE content, which is probably supposed to be the time filler for a character my age.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#25 - 2012-07-03 19:50:53 UTC
Whatever you do with your SP, patience is paramount, and a very GENERAL plan

A SPECIFIC plan could be equated to "what do I want to be when I grow up", and you are 14.
What kind of pilot you want to be when you have 5M, or 10M, or 50M SP, will be very different that what you envisioned.

That just is. So you want to build a GENERAL plan, that encompasses ship support skills.
When I say ship support skills, I am talking about stuff like engineering V, electronics V, Energy Management V, Energy Grid V, Navigation V, etc etc...there are a ton of skills that are critical, that can be applied to fitting / flying ANY ship.

Many corps/alliances will provide you a standard fit they expect you to be able to handle. You must have the basic ship support skills to handle that fit: (see above).

Some people make a beeline to being able to turn the ignition on a battleship, but can't fit the ship properly because they did not get the weapon support skill and ship support skills.

Best suggestion I can give is get really, really good at flying T1 cruisers. That means T2 medium weapon specialization, a ton of ship support skills, a ton of navigation skills, and a ton of weapon support skills.
You aim for getting good at T1 cruisers, and a natural by-product of that will be getting good at flying T1 frigs, and you are a heartbeat away from T2 frigs then also.

I know I am the extreme case, but I had 30M SP (mostly in ship and weapon support skills) before I could fly a T2 cruiser
Price Check Aisle3
#26 - 2012-07-03 19:57:15 UTC
Urgg Boolean wrote:
Training times are not realistic at all. Real classes and training take LESS time than the fake clock-timer EvE skills.

2) Atmospheric physics is 6 in-class hours plus about 8 hours of home work per week for 10 weeks
:: (6 x 10) + (8 x 10) = 140 hours (4 hours of that is eaten up by exams but I won't agrue about that.)
3) Making a conservative guess, Advanced Planetology V (an x5 multiplier) will take ~14 days X 24 hours/day = 336 hours.

Well, let's talk about your rationale here. Your college level class isn't going to cover everything you need to know on the subject. There's a lot of on-the-ground training and tribal knowledge that you'll have to pick up during your career, so the training time in EVE might actually be far less than you need. Also, consider the scale. A skill in EVE to V is the best. Surely one college level class is not going to give you absolute mastery of the skill (your employer will call bullshit on that faster than you can blink, n00b).

Considering that knowledge is injected directly into the brain (EVE training) it's actually pretty fast learning.
  • Karl Hobb IATS
Othran
Route One
#27 - 2012-07-03 19:58:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Othran
Gabriel Z wrote:
Aside from Goon/Test and EUNI, I can't find a corp/alliance that recruits lower skill point players (if you know of one, please speak up)


Agony Unleashed.

If you can use a point/scram, fly a frigate, enjoy blowing other people up and optionally are capable of stringing some coherent sentences together then they'll take you on as a trial. I joined them years ago with about 3mill SP or so, had some fun and learned a lot.

This character is nearly 4 years old now, still can't fly a BS worth a damn but everything below that is pretty much maxed. Doesn't mean I'm any good at half the stuff I'm maxed on though Smile

Enjoy what you can fly when you can fly it. Have a "next ship" goal but don't let that become your focus.
Gabriel Z
Krabulous
#28 - 2012-07-03 20:00:15 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
skill plan advice

What I ended up doing was not remapping while I trained up mid level fitting skills and basic frigate/destroyer skills. I switched back and forth between skills until I could fit a Rifter and Thrasher with the most common fits. Then I remapped for Gunnery, Missile, and Ship skills, which I will do until i can fit a Hurricane with T2 guns and have the ship/missile skills for a Hound and Cheetah (I complete Frig 5 today). Then remap for fine tuning the fitting skills, cloaking, navigation. Then I will still have 1 remap left for decisions at the 15 or 20 mil skillpoint level
Irya Boone
The Scope
#29 - 2012-07-03 20:11:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Irya Boone
or you can pay a lot of plex with real money and get 20billions isk and Buy a Pvp Toon with more than 35 millions SP in the character baazar In a day ...

CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !!

you shall all bow and pray BoB
Gaellia Bonaventure
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2012-07-03 20:39:10 UTC
EvE is hard.

That's pretty much it, actually.

Bring your possibles.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#31 - 2012-07-03 20:42:30 UTC
…also, I suppose I should take the opportunity to spam this thing as usual.
ModeratedToSilence
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2012-07-03 20:52:32 UTC
Urgg Boolean wrote:
Welcome to "instant gratification" flame war territory!

Training times are not realistic at all. Real classes and training take LESS time than the fake clock-timer EvE skills.

A while ago, I posted a comparison of my atmospheric physics class (fulfils B6 science requirement at Cal State East Bay) to Advanced Planetology:
1a) Both require many prereqs so we can ignore the time for those.
1b) At the time of the comparison, my main had +4 implants and was optimized for Perception and Willpower.
2) Atmospheric physics is 6 in-class hours plus about 8 hours of home work per week for 10 weeks
:: (6 x 10) + (8 x 10) = 140 hours (4 hours of that is eaten up by exams but I won't agrue about that.)
3) Making a conservative guess, Advanced Planetology V (an x5 multiplier) will take ~14 days X 24 hours/day = 336 hours.

So, 140 hours for a real skill that is on my resume versus 336 hours for a fake skill only usable in EvE. That's a ridiculous difference even accounting for an unoptimized brain mapping.

This is not about instant gratification. I simply don't think fake skills should take LONGER than real college level science. I'll go out on the flame war limb and state that skill times should be cut in half. This opinion is based upon starting a new character at a time when the skill timer was faster for noobs, and it actually felt like the correct training speed. ~45+ days for Gallente Carrier V ? Really? Training times are nutz.



Bolded the bit that undermines this silly little comparison. In real life it takes you 10 weeks to complete the supposed comparable course. In Eve Online 14 days.

ModeratedToSilence
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2012-07-03 20:54:50 UTC
Urgg Boolean wrote:


I'll go out on the flame war limb and state that skill times should be cut in half. This opinion is based upon starting a new character at a time when the skill timer was faster for noobs, and it actually felt like the correct training speed. ~45+ days for Gallente Carrier V ? Really? Training times are nutz.



45 days is typical for a medium length skill..
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#34 - 2012-07-03 21:03:43 UTC
Been playing for 6 years now and I still have so much stuff to look forwards to. Thats why.
MastaKari
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2012-07-03 21:25:25 UTC
Andoria Thara wrote:
Lipbite wrote:

Also longer train time = more money for the company obviously.

This.

If training times were short, people would max out, get bored, and move on to other games... just like they do in every other "casual" MMO that you can reach cap in less than a month in.

EVE is for players who do not like easy.


This^^^

Long Training times are a good thing, keeps you interested. If you want quick leveing go play star trek online, Max level in 2 weeks of casual playing then get bored a week later, come back here and be happy...
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#36 - 2012-07-03 22:05:59 UTC
Gabriel Z wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
skill plan advice

What I ended up doing was not remapping while I trained up mid level fitting skills and basic frigate/destroyer skills. I switched back and forth between skills until I could fit a Rifter and Thrasher with the most common fits. Then I remapped for Gunnery, Missile, and Ship skills, which I will do until i can fit a Hurricane with T2 guns and have the ship/missile skills for a Hound and Cheetah (I complete Frig 5 today). Then remap for fine tuning the fitting skills, cloaking, navigation. Then I will still have 1 remap left for decisions at the 15 or 20 mil skillpoint level


It can take a ton pf planning, a lot of thinking, and oodles of patience.
And then, you can join a corp that wants something else of you and you have to throw away the plan.
That is the way of Eve.

But you will never regret trying to stick with the plan of great support skills before anything else.
Though I am off target a little bit, my goal is to have half my skills to L5, and everything else at IV. There is the odd skill that does not fit that doctrine, but I think it works pretty well.

That might be a bit much for someone starting out, but I think it is a good longterm goal.
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2012-07-03 22:41:42 UTC
No guild in WoW or EQ or Rift or wherever is going to take someone who started playing a week ago. Skills in EVE are the same as experience and leveling in other games. The difference being, you level up passively leaving time to actually play the game (provided you have a source of isk).

The main skills you actually need don't take long to train. No skill takes long to get to level 4, which is really all you need for the majority of skills and professions. The only thing that separates new players from veterans is that vets have more skills at level 5. And the difference between 4 and 5 is not that much.
Aruken Marr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2012-07-04 00:12:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Aruken Marr
Dorian Wylde wrote:
No guild in WoW or EQ or Rift or wherever is going to take someone who started playing a week ago. Skills in EVE are the same as experience and leveling in other games. The difference being, you level up passively leaving time to actually play the game (provided you have a source of isk).

The main skills you actually need don't take long to train. No skill takes long to get to level 4, which is really all you need for the majority of skills and professions. The only thing that separates new players from veterans is that vets have more skills at level 5. And the difference between 4 and 5 is not that much.


I really hate it when people go around telling new players they need to have trained xyz or skill up for a couple of months before you can play the game properly and be useful. Players can be useful from day 1 with lvl 2 and 3 basic skills. This is just a bad attitude to have and it's one new players could do without hearing.

edit- I'm assuming that's your main and you've been in your npc corp for the past 2 years. Please don't tell anyone what you just wrote.

edit-edit- OP keep looking. There are plenty of organisations that will take in new players and throw you right into the deep end (in a good way), just keep looking. Someone mentioned Agony Empire and there's Red vs Blue aswell.
Grumpymunky
Monkey Steals The Peach
#39 - 2012-07-04 00:49:19 UTC
Skill training times are my "cool-off period"
I want to fly that ship NOW! But I need another 2 months of skill training.
After training for 2 months I don't feel like flying it anymore, and I want to fly something else NOW!
Seems like I'm doomed to EFT-warrioring forever.

Post with your monkey.

Thread locked due to lack of pants.
Gabriel Z
Krabulous
#40 - 2012-07-04 00:50:52 UTC
More great posts. Thanks again guys. Obviously I haven't been in the game long enough to really reply to some of them, since I don't understand all the fine points that go into them.

While in the Uni and while reading forums, a lot of people talk about being useful with even a little bit of training. I agree. Which is why its surprising to learn that there aren't more noob components of the big organizations in EVE. I joined EUNI very soon after starting thinking it was the orientation class for eve and that big fleets would be tripping over themselves to recruit some delicious, unjaded, naive trigger pullers. The Uni itself runs some fleets, but it isn't really geared for teaching PvP beyond the here's-where-the-buttons-are and introductory fleet operations.

Like I said before, I originally posted because I was curious how the time element worked into things. The more I think about it, the more I think the first quarter of eve life is probably intended for PvE and bankrolling future activitiy. I skipped that with 2 plexes for ISK because the PvE was killing my soul.

Everyone keeps talking about RvB and FW, which is probably what I'll putter around with.