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ECM and ECCM

Author
Khanamarrid
The Pannion Domin
#1 - 2012-07-03 11:02:26 UTC
What is the point to usig ECCM when I can still get perma-jammed buy a griffin? Why aren't other ECM for the other races not even closely powerful as the caldari's ? It's fustrating to specifically fit your ship so It won't get jammed and it gets jammed anyway.
Muad 'dib
The Nine Nine
#2 - 2012-07-03 11:36:31 UTC
eccm should have a % like it does now and a +5

Fitting it on anything less than a BC almost worthless

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.

Rel'k Bloodlor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-07-03 11:56:15 UTC
ECM is the weakest of the Ewar's. Whens the last time you saw it on a ship that wasn't made for it?
Been ruined more buy webbs and points way more then ECM and it will probably stay that way. Don't get me wrong ECM drones need to not be what they are but the mods are rather balanced you need the ship that uses them and the right ones, ever had to not fight because you forgot our Amarr webber or your Caldari point? Ever had to wait for the guy with the ship that can fit nuets to log on?

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 

Jack Miton
Perkone
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-07-03 12:36:48 UTC
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
ECM is the weakest of the Ewar's. Whens the last time you saw it on a ship that wasn't made for it?
Been ruined more buy webbs and points way more then ECM and it will probably stay that way. Don't get me wrong ECM drones need to not be what they are but the mods are rather balanced you need the ship that uses them and the right ones, ever had to not fight because you forgot our Amarr webber or your Caldari point? Ever had to wait for the guy with the ship that can fit nuets to log on?



not sure if serious or falcon alt seller...

There is no Bob.

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Rordan D'Kherr
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2012-07-03 13:13:40 UTC
Khanamarrid wrote:
What is the point to usig ECCM when I can still get perma-jammed buy a griffin? Why aren't other ECM for the other races not even closely powerful as the caldari's ? It's fustrating to specifically fit your ship so It won't get jammed and it gets jammed anyway.


So you fit ECCM and get jammed anyways. Bad luck. ECM is chance based. ECCM reduces the chance.

Don't be scared, because being afk is not a crime.

Maeltstome
Academy of the Unseen Arts
#6 - 2012-07-03 13:22:30 UTC
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
ECM is the weakest of the Ewar's. Whens the last time you saw it on a ship that wasn't made for it?
Been ruined more buy webbs and points way more then ECM and it will probably stay that way. Don't get me wrong ECM drones need to not be what they are but the mods are rather balanced you need the ship that uses them and the right ones, ever had to not fight because you forgot our Amarr webber or your Caldari point? Ever had to wait for the guy with the ship that can fit nuets to log on?


HAHAHAHAHA
Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
#7 - 2012-07-03 13:45:16 UTC
There is no such thing a "perma-jam"
Thelron
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-07-03 13:58:27 UTC
Khanamarrid wrote:
What is the point to usig ECCM when I can still get perma-jammed buy a griffin? Why aren't other ECM for the other races not even closely powerful as the caldari's ? It's fustrating to specifically fit your ship so It won't get jammed and it gets jammed anyway.


Ya know, I really HATE when I fit mods to make it harder for people do damage my ship, but they go and do it anyway. Even frigates, for crying out loud!

Oh. Wait.

I'm still not convinced things weren't better where ECM worked like disruptors though, because at least that meant everyone was doing sums rather than hoping they got good values from random(), and a lucky blackbird/scorpion couldn't knock 6+ ships offline for 20 seconds.
Lili Lu
#9 - 2012-07-03 14:40:26 UTC
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
ECM is the weakest of the Ewar's. Whens the last time you saw it on a ship that wasn't made for it?
Been ruined more buy webbs and points way more then ECM and it will probably stay that way. Don't get me wrong ECM drones need to not be what they are but the mods are rather balanced you need the ship that uses them and the right ones, ever had to not fight because you forgot our Amarr webber or your Caldari point? Ever had to wait for the guy with the ship that can fit nuets to log on?

You are getting ridiculed quite sufficiently by other posters above that I won't bother piling on.P



To the OP: Yes. ECCM is rather weak. It is worthless to fit on anything tech I BC or below because it is percentage based. It is worth fitting on some tech II cruiser and above and tech I BS if you can spare a slot. Often however those slots are more dearly needed for other modules when factoring in the actual benefit you might gain from the eccm module.

What can be done? I doubt ecm will get any further nerf. CCP has tried twice already and each time they did they felt so sad about ecm boats they gave them immediate counter buffs.

No such love for any other ewar and ewar boats though. No bonus for ships that are specialized for damps or webs or td or neuts have come when those ewar (neuts and webs not really being "racial" ewar) boats got nerfed or scripted or both or whatever ever came. 5% per level bonuses stayed (and certainly no 30% per level bonuses). Which is not to say that these other specialized boats won't get a buff . . in a couple years when they finally get to it. But I digress.

Because ECCM is wholly percentage based it is worthless on ships with low sensor strength, frigs cruisers BCs. If it was whole number based or a combo of percentage and whole number it might have more effect and might be worth fitting on those ships. I would not however expect to see any help in this direction for a long time still. Usual CCP glacial pace in important work of rebalancing things. It should be top priority, as it is central to a game of space battles. But instead we get a nifty new inventory system.

What else could be done? How about, being ecm'd and painted are the only two racial ewar where there is no skill in the game that you could train to counter. You can train for speed of targeting, range of targeting, tracking speed and range, speed of your ship, capacitor of ship, but you cannot train for let's say magnetometric sensor intgegrity or ladar sensor integrity or signal reduction. Now painting bonuses on painting specialized ships are a pidly 5% per level so the lack of a skill for signal reduction doesn't mean much. But this is just another hope for an eventual introduction of something new that can lessen the impact of ecm.

Regardless, until CCP get's serious and finally get's around to fixing a vexing problem in the game you just have to do what you can. Get a buddy, or your own falcon alt, and ECM right back. Or have the buddy in a woeful damp boat and hope the ecm is at range where the damps make a difference. Or if you are lucky to have launchers or drones out and in action before the jam, hope that the AI on any fof missiles or your drones decides to target the ecm boat. Or fly a ship with enough base sensor integrity that it might benefit from eccm weak as it is.Straight
Lili Lu
#10 - 2012-07-03 14:47:30 UTC
Thelron wrote:
I'm still not convinced things weren't better where ECM worked like disruptors though, because at least that meant everyone was doing sums rather than hoping they got good values from random(), and a lucky blackbird/scorpion couldn't knock 6+ ships offline for 20 seconds.

Whereas if unlucky he's only taking 3 ships offline What?
Lucy Ferrr
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2012-07-03 17:36:47 UTC
Patient 2428190 wrote:
There is no such thing a "perma-jam"


The hell there isn't. You have never flown a minmatar ship huh?
Silverdaddy
Ourapheh Holdings
#12 - 2012-07-03 22:05:07 UTC
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
ECM is the weakest of the Ewar's. Whens the last time you saw it on a ship that wasn't made for it?
Been ruined more buy webbs and points way more then ECM and it will probably stay that way. Don't get me wrong ECM drones need to not be what they are but the mods are rather balanced you need the ship that uses them and the right ones, ever had to not fight because you forgot our Amarr webber or your Caldari point? Ever had to wait for the guy with the ship that can fit nuets to log on?


Seriously? You think Sensor Dampeners are better?

Oh, that's right... they are so bad that you had forgotten about them...

The problem with slavery is that only half of the manacles are visible. The Holder, supposed master, is equally bound by the gilded chains of privilege and wealth.

Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2012-07-03 22:53:26 UTC
Muad 'dib wrote:
Fitting it on anything less than a BC almost worthless


Yeah, I run around constantly with no ECCM on my logi.

(this is sarcasm)

Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
ECM is the weakest of the Ewar's. Whens the last time you saw it on a ship that wasn't made for it?


A few hours ago. ECM, even unbonused, adds up plenty fast.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=13871362
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#14 - 2012-07-04 09:30:00 UTC
Patient 2428190 wrote:
There is no such thing a "perma-jam"


If(jam>=sensor){maxTargets==0;}

Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
ECM is the weakest of the Ewar's. Whens the last time you saw it on a ship that wasn't made for it?
Been ruined more buy webbs and points way more then ECM and it will probably stay that way. Don't get me wrong ECM drones need to not be what they are but the mods are rather balanced you need the ship that uses them and the right ones, ever had to not fight because you forgot our Amarr webber or your Caldari point? Ever had to wait for the guy with the ship that can fit nuets to log on?


When's the last time you had a couple dozen target painting ships on field in a large fleet fight? Mot EWAR either reduces the ability to do damage, reduces the ability to do anything (neuts), or increases the damage applied to target. ECM reaches out and says "Hey, you! Yeah, you! You're outta there!"

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#15 - 2012-07-04 13:22:16 UTC
There is maths : a multispectral ECM on an unbonused ship have a strength of 3 ; a racial one have a strength of 4.5 OR 1.5 if it's not the good target.

That mean that on a frigate, with an ewar module, you will disable its lock for at best 35% of the time (if it is a minmatar frigate) with a multispec ; 56% of the time if you have a specialized jammer AND it's the good jammer ; 12% otherwise.

These numbers are everything but OP ; remember I used a minmatar frigate for these numbers : you cannot have better results without a specialized ship.

So, ECM are only useful with a dedicated ship,but considering the numbers, you can only permajam a T1 cruiser at best, and if he fit an ECCM module, chance fall to around 50%.

Infact, given the 150% bonus of a falcon, you have *at best* 11.25 jaming strength. That is not even superior to a rupture, so as I said, an ECCM will take you to a 50% chance of being jamed.

Considering the absence of tank on ECM boat, *anything* can kill them solo, yes, even a drone. Jamming is only thing these boat can do. They are an all or nothing option and a logi will be more reliable in the end in fact unless you want to escape from the battlefield.

The problem you have is that it's hard to fight with one ship against more than one (yes, a falcon alt is a second ship). Any EWAR/support ship would have ruined your day if not this falcon. The only advantage the falcon have over other EWAR ship is that it can disable many ship at once, but that's because other EWAR need a buff.
Noisrevbus
#16 - 2012-07-04 15:58:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Noisrevbus
Idea Keep in mind:

Small ships generally have low stats on certain key elements that all EW can exploit. They were likely designed with that in mind. ECM is indeed effective against low sensor strengths and ECCM comparatively ineffective there. The same can be said about low lock ranges (or ships operating in/near their lock range; as opposed to ships operating with margin, such as Recons), capacitor levels, speed-relatives and MWD-dependency. I doubt we want small tackle more difficult to shake through any of those means.

The exceptions are Painters and Detrackers as small ships generally have smaller sigs and better tracking turrets. They on the other hand have advantageous scaling going up instead.
Noisrevbus
#17 - 2012-07-04 16:06:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Noisrevbus
Soldarius wrote:

When's the last time you had a couple dozen target painting ships on field in a large fleet fight?


Isn't the Rapier (or Huginn) generally regarded the best and most popular Recon today?

Almost any gang i can think of, regardless of size, the Minmatar EW hold number one priority followed by Gallente.

Amarr is definately dead last with the decline of fast small-medium roaming, but it's not like anyone start a gang and ask for ECM ships to fill the ranks before you have ample primary- and secondary tackle. The only reason you don't see more Gallente recons in large fleet fights is because entire grids get bubbled.

Any gang that fight with oversized weapons (from Bombers, to L-turret sniping to XL-turret blapping) you are likely to see Painters brought in on priority over ECM, and most definately Webs which are bonused on the same ships.

If your gang do not utilize Painters it has more likely to do with the power of Webs over Painters than ECM.
Colonel Xaven
Perkone
Caldari State
#18 - 2012-07-05 08:32:24 UTC
Watching Alliance Tournaments and wondering why so many teams using ECM got wiped?

www.facebook.com/RazorAlliance

Tarsus Zateki
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2012-07-06 00:14:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarsus Zateki
Khanamarrid wrote:
...usig [sic] ECCM when I can still get perma-jammed buy [sic] a griffin...


This never happened.

You asked me once, what was in Room 101. I told you that you knew the answer already. Everyone knows it. The thing that is in Room 101 is the worst thing in the world.

Kisogo Magellin
Kostura RnD
#20 - 2012-07-07 15:19:43 UTC
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
ECM is the weakest of the Ewar's. Whens the last time you saw it on a ship that wasn't made for it?
Been ruined more buy webbs and points way more then ECM and it will probably stay that way. Don't get me wrong ECM drones need to not be what they are but the mods are rather balanced you need the ship that uses them and the right ones, ever had to not fight because you forgot our Amarr webber or your Caldari point? Ever had to wait for the guy with the ship that can fit nuets to log on?


Nothing you just said made any sense.

English, please.

._.