Intergalactic Summit

I, for one.

And I find your idea utterly rediculous.

Still, I think you mean well when you seek to place responsibility in such a way. However, a Holder's place and duty is to provide the means for this growth and development, they are not charged with performing it by hand. The training staff, with their many years (sometimes generational) experience would bear the brunt of this shared blame that you would seek to distribute on those you think deserving.

Think on it, will you child?

*shrugs*

So you say.

A loud voice untempered by Wisdom does not Shape the World.

Was this the first crime by the slave? Your description of events seems to leave the details of the case far too vague for any judgement, beyond the slaves culpability.

As for your wide ranging comments on holders, I would hope you reconsider.

It pains my heart to see so many Holders balk from the idea that Holders should be held responsible for the souls in their keeping. Remember: punishment is holy. Scourging the flesh restores the soul. Only those weak in spirit or body cannot bare the occasional lash. In the Hanaya estates, I have seen withered men, stooped from years of service submit to physical torment when they have erred.




They should be collared, exiled, or executed.



None, her flesh is divine. To sit in judgement of her is akin to judging God.

In this particular case I'm not sure what the staff or the Holder could have done to prevent this, other than wide ranging and unnecessary restrictions. Certainly the slave could have been under guard at all times, but that obviously didn't seem like a prudent idea. The slave wasn't a criminal and I doubt anyone suspected a fight might break out. Certainly the slave might have been forbidden to every drink, but again from what you've said it appears the slave gave no reasonable cause to have that small freedom taken away.

Given that it seems the slave was free to drink, and free to meander around without any sort of guard on hand, then it seems plain that the slave had a lapse of judgement, did something wrong, and was punished. Despite being a slave, there are still measures of personal responsiblity here, unless of course you're saying the slave was ordered to get drunk and attack someone.

I recall that low-born women called for the collaring, exile, or execution of Holders to not go over particularly well, either.

If i have understood what Ms Hanaya is trying to point out, its not that much that the Holder should be punished on an equally manner as a slave, but she is talking that the Holder should not get to the extreme and start physically harming his own slave- who if you look at it on a very cruel manner, the slave is his/her own property.

Physically harming a slave is an act that breeds the hatred we Amarr seem to enjoy from every other faction, among other factors which are contributing to that. On the other hand for our society a slave is our own and we can treat him/her however we want and that is something that can not change unless major changes within the core of the Amarr society happen.

For me whenever a slave is causing trouble in a similar situation I simply put them in detainment for some time. No physical harm is needed, usually their loss( as in staying away ) of their family is getting them understand that by causing problems they only harm themselves and not ultimately me. If however the slave is not under the family institution then i hand them in the Authorities and they treat him as seen fit. For me physically harming another human being simply is not of my character. I warn them, i tell them what the situation will be, i try to find what is the matter and if they keep on doing i release them to the Authorities ( i can not set them free as they will have nothing and they will be a burden in public property or start causing trouble thus why in the Empire we have almost no exposure into poverty as in other factions one can be walking down the street in a market and see beggars) where i am sure that the new Holder or even the Authorities will not be so generous as i am, or maybe they will be much better than me and actually make it work with the slave.

The rest of my Holding that is witnessing those events in the meantime know and have learned what i am going to do, and because they understand that finding a lenient Holder as myself is something that God can only determine and usually that is rare, they either comply accordingly or they simply know and understand that they can not change and cause the damage they want. In fact many times that one or two individuals who are causing or about to cause trouble in one of my Holdings, my security forces don't even get the chance to take action as those individuals are stopped by their counterparts, in order to maintain the healthy living conditions and harmony that I have managed to establish in my Holdings. And although i understand that fear of uncertainty and not so much love from keeping my people from uprising, every action i make is rewarding them and shows to them that it is not my intention to harm them nor treat them any less equally. Some need many years until they become deeply faithful towards me and others instantly see how lucky, blessed or however else you want to put it, to serve under a Holder who for a change wont hit them, make fun of them, treat them as dogs and so on.

Violence is not always the way, it is the most immediate and direct way but if one nurture understanding and make the slaves feel safe and secure in ones Holdings than my experience has taught me that they will not have enough, if any, reasons to cause problems.

Violence is not always the way.

Lord Ulfang

I'm no expert on Imperial or Kingdom Law but I'll answer your question from my own perspective. Your question was, quite simply, "whose fault is it?"

The answer? It is both the slave and the Holder's fault. However, the slave is at fault directly for committing the act and should be punished appropriately for this failure. The Holder is at fault indirectly simply by being responsible for the education and upbringing of the slave and should be held to account for the failure appropriately.

If the Holder in question disciplines the slave for his failure then the Holder is accepting the responsibility for the failure and performing the duty her station demands of her. Reparations from the Holder to the victim could also be expected, but I am unsure if Imperial or Kingdom Law makes accommodation for this practice.

Both are at fault but one deserves punishment while the other takes responsibility for discipline and administering that punishment.

A Holder is always both responsible to his slave and to his God. Only by understanding this can his journey to redemption ever be attained.

What backwater agrarian dungheap planet was this? These days there are more modern and sophisticated methods to make a person crap themself in fear and pain.

I bet it was another one of those 'liberal holders' who intentionally had their slave get all liquored up on hoopie juice just so they can say to the public how uncivilized the slave races are and how they need to be kept shackled up to prevent them from hurting anyone.