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Two serious questions for the "Highsec Carebear"
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Pipa Porto
#141 - 2012-07-01 07:28:33 UTC
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
2. I should make enough money in highsec to barely pay for a PLEX on a good month. It makes no sense to me if I could make more, because the price would just shift accordingly since 80% of EVE's player-base (and henceforth the biggest chunk of PLEX customers) is in highsec.


You actually believe that? Where did you pull the "80% of the player base" figure from?


Last statistics check. It was like what, less than 15% in null, and another ~15% spread between low and w-space. I was surprised by those stats too, perhaps 70% would be more accurate.


You got the numbers wrong, but more importantly, you got the analysis wrong. That was a server snapshot of Active Characters and where they were at that moment.

I live in Null, but I have more Characters in HS LS than I have in Null, because Cynos, Freighters, etc are useful. That survey counted me as 2 Null, 2 LS, and 5 HS.


Well if my analysis is wrong, what is the real ratio? Is there a snapshot with only 10 mil+ characters only? That would certainly be more interesting.


The real ratio is essentially unknowable. I mean, I suppose CCP could do a snapshot, hook each character to an email address/ip/CC/whatever, then assign each person a location.

But how would they know where to assign people? Is the guy with an alt in LS a HS player with a LS PI toon?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Ibrahim Vaughn Holtzman
the holtzman experience
CAStabouts
#142 - 2012-07-01 08:31:20 UTC
Thor Kerrigan wrote:

why do you think people still remain in highsec? Are the risks too high or the rewards too low (same thing really)?


Grinding ISK for hours with mining in a 0.5 or running lvl4 distribution or lvl3 combat missions to afford a decent ship, only to have said ship destroyed the instant I decide to venture into lowsec was only mildly entertaining for some time.
And don't even get me started on nullsec; I've died more times in the space of five hours than in the five months before, because seemingly EVERY. FNCKING. GATE. or STATION. has some psycho sitting outside, randomly killing EVERY. FNCKING. PLAYER. coming through.

Give me a place in low|null where I can play with (or against!) civilized people, and without having to join some Sperglord's corp, and without having to constantly check local or Dscan for Greater Internet Fnckwads and I will go there right away.
Pipa Porto
#143 - 2012-07-01 08:35:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Ibrahim Vaughn Holtzman wrote:
Thor Kerrigan wrote:

why do you think people still remain in highsec? Are the risks too high or the rewards too low (same thing really)?


Grinding ISK for hours with mining in a 0.5 or running lvl4 distribution or lvl3 combat missions to afford a decent ship, only to have said ship destroyed the instant I decide to venture into lowsec was only mildly entertaining for some time.
And don't even get me started on nullsec; I've died more times in the space of five hours than in the five months before, because seemingly EVERY. FNCKING. GATE. or STATION. has some psycho sitting outside, randomly killing EVERY. FNCKING. PLAYER. coming through.

Give me a place in low|null where I can play with (or against!) civilized people, and without having to join some Sperglord's corp, and without having to constantly check local or Dscan for Greater Internet Fnckwads and I will go there right away.


Make friends. #EvEGetsBetter

No, but seriously. All of those are choices you make. Refusing to make friends in a Massively Multiplayer Game seems kind of ShockedRoll

As for your last sentence, you want Low/Null without PvP? LolWut?


(And if you invented the FTL drive, how are you still Spacepoor?)

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#144 - 2012-07-01 08:38:19 UTC
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
(...)

1. What exactly is a reasonable amount of risk? In other words, at which point would losing your most expensive ship (NPCs or Players, no matter) result in you going "Yep, I truly deserved to lose that ship and I can only blame myself". Showing emotion - sadness or rage - for such a lose is understandable; such is the nature of the game. So please, an honest response.


The reasonable amount of risk is an eye for an eye. If i risk a ship worth two billion, then i must either be able to earn those two billion before losing the ship to NPCs, or anyone willing to kill my ship should also jeopardize his own two billion to do so.

My favorite approach to that balance would be that, in case that you were ganked by a ****** worthless alt, you could identify an alt account from the same player who actually held assets worth as much as what you lose, and then pay for someone to blow assets from that account until his losses match (or outdo!) your own. An eye for an eye.

Thor Kerrigan wrote:
2. What exactly is a reasonable amount of profit you should be allowed to make? What is the maximum and the minimum isk/hour that should be available when you perform said activities under you ideal risk/reward ratio you thought of when answering question 1.(...)]


My own personal balance would be on the line of 1.5 to 2 PLEX per month, that would be a minimum of 750 million / 60 hours = 12.5 million per hour, averaged.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Pipa Porto
#145 - 2012-07-01 08:43:23 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
(...)

1. What exactly is a reasonable amount of risk? In other words, at which point would losing your most expensive ship (NPCs or Players, no matter) result in you going "Yep, I truly deserved to lose that ship and I can only blame myself". Showing emotion - sadness or rage - for such a lose is understandable; such is the nature of the game. So please, an honest response.


The reasonable amount of risk is an eye for an eye. If i risk a ship worth two billion, then i must either be able to earn those two billion before losing the ship to NPCs, or anyone willing to kill my ship should also jeopardize his own two billion to do so.

My favorite approach to that balance would be that, in case that you were ganked by a ****** worthless alt, you could identify an alt account from the same player who actually held assets worth as much as what you lose, and then pay for someone to blow assets from that account until his losses match (or outdo!) your own. An eye for an eye.


So Titans should be safe unless the opposing team can field ~100b worth of assets to kill it? Or, they should get the names of all alts of players on the KM?

Sounds good. Roll

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Ibrahim Vaughn Holtzman
the holtzman experience
CAStabouts
#146 - 2012-07-01 08:49:01 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:

As for your last sentence, you want Low/Null without PvP? LolWut?


Feel free to re-read my post. Especially the part where it says

Quote:
(or against!)
Pipa Porto
#147 - 2012-07-01 08:52:07 UTC
Ibrahim Vaughn Holtzman wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
As for your last sentence, you want Low/Null without PvP? LolWut?


Feel free to re-read my post. Especially the part where it says
Quote:
(or against!)


Feel Free to re-read your own post.

I was referring to this.

Ibrahim Vaughn Holtzman wrote:
without having to constantly check local or Dscan


The only reason you wouldn't have to be paying attention to your surroundings would be if you thought you were safe.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#148 - 2012-07-01 08:58:15 UTC
Ibrahim Vaughn Holtzman wrote:
Thor Kerrigan wrote:

why do you think people still remain in highsec? Are the risks too high or the rewards too low (same thing really)?


Grinding ISK for hours with mining in a 0.5 or running lvl4 distribution or lvl3 combat missions to afford a decent ship, only to have said ship destroyed the instant I decide to venture into lowsec was only mildly entertaining for some time.
And don't even get me started on nullsec; I've died more times in the space of five hours than in the five months before, because seemingly EVERY. FNCKING. GATE. or STATION. has some psycho sitting outside, randomly killing EVERY. FNCKING. PLAYER. coming through.

Give me a place in low|null where I can play with (or against!) civilized people, and without having to join some Sperglord's corp, and without having to constantly check local or Dscan for Greater Internet Fnckwads and I will go there right away.


You seem bitter. I say that because I completely understand how you feel. When a loss feels unjustified, that's exactly how I feel. I could give you countless examples of when I lost ships and felt like isk just flew out the window. However, I can assure you solo PVP is possible, yet challenging enough it requires practice. It also requires patience (lots, lots of patience). Usually the more reckless I get, the greater the risk of loosing my ship. Conversely, I reduce my chance of getting targets. Everyone who wishes to PVP needs to find their comfort risk zone.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#149 - 2012-07-01 09:03:09 UTC
Ibrahim Vaughn Holtzman wrote:
Thor Kerrigan wrote:

why do you think people still remain in highsec? Are the risks too high or the rewards too low (same thing really)?


Grinding ISK for hours with mining in a 0.5 or running lvl4 distribution or lvl3 combat missions to afford a decent ship, only to have said ship destroyed the instant I decide to venture into lowsec was only mildly entertaining for some time.
And don't even get me started on nullsec; I've died more times in the space of five hours than in the five months before, because seemingly EVERY. FNCKING. GATE. or STATION. has some psycho sitting outside, randomly killing EVERY. FNCKING. PLAYER. coming through.

Give me a place in low|null where I can play with (or against!) civilized people, and without having to join some Sperglord's corp, and without having to constantly check local or Dscan for Greater Internet Fnckwads and I will go there right away.


Have you ever thought this from a different angle? That maybe it's not the game or other players, but the reason for your misfortune is looking at you in the mirror.

.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#150 - 2012-07-01 09:11:51 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
(...)

1. What exactly is a reasonable amount of risk? In other words, at which point would losing your most expensive ship (NPCs or Players, no matter) result in you going "Yep, I truly deserved to lose that ship and I can only blame myself". Showing emotion - sadness or rage - for such a lose is understandable; such is the nature of the game. So please, an honest response.


The reasonable amount of risk is an eye for an eye. If i risk a ship worth two billion, then i must either be able to earn those two billion before losing the ship to NPCs, or anyone willing to kill my ship should also jeopardize his own two billion to do so.

My favorite approach to that balance would be that, in case that you were ganked by a ****** worthless alt, you could identify an alt account from the same player who actually held assets worth as much as what you lose, and then pay for someone to blow assets from that account until his losses match (or outdo!) your own. An eye for an eye.


So Titans should be safe unless the opposing team can field ~100b worth of assets to kill it? Or, they should get the names of all alts of players on the KM?

Sounds good. Roll


Because hisec carebears fly titans in swarms... Roll

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Scien Inkunen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#151 - 2012-07-01 09:18:16 UTC
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
I would like to ask two questions to anyone who considers him/herself a "highsec carebear".

So my questions are the following:

1. What exactly is a reasonable amount of risk? In other words, at which point would losing your most expensive ship (NPCs or Players, no matter) result in you going "Yep, I truly deserved to lose that ship and I can only blame myself". Showing emotion - sadness or rage - for such a lose is understandable; such is the nature of the game. So please, an honest response.

2. What exactly is a reasonable amount of profit you should be allowed to make? What is the maximum and the minimum isk/hour that should be available when you perform said activities under you ideal risk/reward ratio you thought of when answering question 1.

These are actually my personal answers to those questions.[/b]


My opinions:

1. There is no risk - there is chance you losing your ship because someone one ganked you in middle of a misssion (you have a PVE fit) - there is a difference between PVE and PVP setups. Showing emotions is in human behavior and that is normal except you are zombi. And I highly disbelieve that there are personalities for gaming and for RL - you are who you are, like it or not.

2. The profit - this is only valuable in RL. This is a game and you play it until you are bored or unti you can afford it. What will you do if you have 500 bil ISK in game - to show it to your girlfriend? You have no real use with those and if you are taking a lot of effort to make lot of game money or to make someone game time miserable by any means, is something in extreme and I call it misbehavior.

Read the "Fart file" and you will understand the meaning of life !
Rats
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#152 - 2012-07-01 09:32:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Rats
Pipa Porto wrote:
Denidil wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:


It becomes a problem when they jump on the forums & demand more nerfs to suicide ganking & buffs for their mining ship so they can keep afk mining in complete safety.

Also ECM drones. Use them & I won't use a Catalyst... I may come back & alpha you in a Tornado though because it's funny.


HTFU gankbear. shoot things that can shoot back like the rest of us do


Miners have the same opportunities to shoot back as everyone else.



In a hulk ? not quite.


Haven't really added to this argument as its a rehash of a veritable cornucopia of other threads and nothing has been sorted.

The greifer, your tears are our target , null bear, nerf hi sec, we should shoot anything anywhere crowd, want WOT in space

The hi sec carebear, miner, industrialist, mission runner, and peeps who want balance and a place for all in EvE whatever there motivation.

Personally I think there is room for both, but they are never going to agree.

Your are never gonna reconcile those 2 sides.



Tal

I Fought the Law, and the Law Won... Talon Silverhawk
Pipa Porto
#153 - 2012-07-01 10:06:20 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
(...)

1. What exactly is a reasonable amount of risk? In other words, at which point would losing your most expensive ship (NPCs or Players, no matter) result in you going "Yep, I truly deserved to lose that ship and I can only blame myself". Showing emotion - sadness or rage - for such a lose is understandable; such is the nature of the game. So please, an honest response.


The reasonable amount of risk is an eye for an eye. If i risk a ship worth two billion, then i must either be able to earn those two billion before losing the ship to NPCs, or anyone willing to kill my ship should also jeopardize his own two billion to do so.

My favorite approach to that balance would be that, in case that you were ganked by a ****** worthless alt, you could identify an alt account from the same player who actually held assets worth as much as what you lose, and then pay for someone to blow assets from that account until his losses match (or outdo!) your own. An eye for an eye.


So Titans should be safe unless the opposing team can field ~100b worth of assets to kill it? Or, they should get the names of all alts of players on the KM?

Sounds good. Roll


Because hisec carebears fly titans in swarms... Roll


Oh, so you want special Isk Tanking rules in HS. Gotcha.

(I can't think of any ship that cannot be fit to make it so that it's unprofitably to gank it, nor any activity that can't be performed in a way that nearly or totally eliminates suicide ganks motivated by profit.)

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#154 - 2012-07-01 10:11:49 UTC
Rats wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Denidil wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:


It becomes a problem when they jump on the forums & demand more nerfs to suicide ganking & buffs for their mining ship so they can keep afk mining in complete safety.

Also ECM drones. Use them & I won't use a Catalyst... I may come back & alpha you in a Tornado though because it's funny.


HTFU gankbear. shoot things that can shoot back like the rest of us do


Miners have the same opportunities to shoot back as everyone else.



In a hulk ? not quite.


Haven't really added to this argument as its a rehash of a veritable cornucopia of other threads and nothing has been sorted.

The greifer, your tears are our target , null bear, nerf hi sec, we should shoot anything anywhere crowd, want WOT in space

The hi sec carebear, miner, industrialist, mission runner, and peeps who want balance and a place for all in EvE whatever there motivation.

Personally I think there is room for both, but they are never going to agree.

Your are never gonna reconcile those 2 sides.



Tal


The player always has a choice in what ship to fly. If you can't keep your Hulk safe, then the Hulk may not be the ship for you, though there are methods by which you can deny someone a gank (ECM drones work great) using the Hulks abilities. If you want to fly a Hulk, but can't fly it safely by yourself, get a friend in a Tornado; have them Gank the Catalysts as soon as they go GCC.

There is no room in EvE for griefers. Absolutely none. But then, a lot of people confuse legitimate gameplay for griefing.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Prince Kobol
#155 - 2012-07-01 10:12:46 UTC
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
I would like to ask two questions to anyone who considers him/herself a "highsec carebear".

[/b]


Define High Sec Care bear
JigglyPoof
Industrial Mining and Mayhem
Sigma Grindset
#156 - 2012-07-01 11:37:18 UTC
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
Delen Ormand wrote:
[quote=Thor Kerrigan]So anyways... 5 pages I there is barely anyone who actually responded to the questions. Is it because the real highsec dwellers simply adapted and are playing the game or because they do not exist?


But why would I attack them? I'm curious because I played in all areas of sec EVE has to offer and that is what shaped my idea of what is a balanced risk/reward system.

I'm curious to know if one who only played in highsec has a significantly different opinion on the matter. (refer to post 91 or my edited OP for my view on the issue)


I don't really know if there is supposed to be a balanced risk/reward system but rather a reward system tailored to each type of player's play style. LVL 4 missions are a great gaming experience for the casual player who comes home from work and wants to run a quick mission for about 30 minutes or so and gets a nice amount of isk for it. If the isk was lower than the said player might not play the game at all since there would be no benefit for him to continue to on with the subscription. Same thing goes for mining. Not everyone has the time to commit themselves to hours of play each day, but does want to be able to make enough money to participate in the game. I don't think that the carebears really care about how much isk per hour they make? They look at how enjoyable the game is. Null sec players will always and should always have the most opportunity to make the most amount of isk. But how much is the spread between Null sec and high sec income generation per hour slope difference? I don't know, but I imagine that it might not be as wide as the risk vs reward that null sec players want.

But then again this isn't a PVP hostile game. It is more like a player community interactive game in which one players actions can affect the other players. Which is great. Not everyone come to EVE to fight against each other. They enjoy the other aspects that EVE offers which is great. But with that said, I am sure HS carebears love it when null sec players blow each other up.

Supreme Commander of the Jigglys
Ibrahim Vaughn Holtzman
the holtzman experience
CAStabouts
#157 - 2012-07-01 12:13:14 UTC
Roime wrote:
Have you ever thought this from a different angle? That maybe it's not the game or other players, but the reason for your misfortune is looking at you in the mirror.


Uh? I'm not lamenting my supposed misfortune or anything, I just stated why I steer clear of low|null.

I can afford losing the ships that I fly, I play like I will and have buzzword. In hisec.
Doc Severide
Doomheim
#158 - 2012-07-01 12:52:57 UTC
pussnheels wrote:
..., just as RL the more effort you put into something the higher the reward clear and simple

You really believe that? In RL you can put in massive amounts of effort and still get royally screwed...
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#159 - 2012-07-01 13:29:23 UTC
Ibrahim Vaughn Holtzman wrote:
Roime wrote:
Have you ever thought this from a different angle? That maybe it's not the game or other players, but the reason for your misfortune is looking at you in the mirror.


Uh? I'm not lamenting my supposed misfortune or anything, I just stated why I steer clear of low|null.

I can afford losing the ships that I fly, I play like I will and have buzzword. In hisec.


Just for reference, this is what you wrote:

Quote:
Grinding ISK for hours with mining in a 0.5 or running lvl4 distribution or lvl3 combat missions to afford a decent ship, only to have said ship destroyed the instant I decide to venture into lowsec was only mildly entertaining for some time.
And don't even get me started on nullsec; I've died more times in the space of five hours than in the five months before, because seemingly EVERY. FNCKING. GATE. or STATION. has some psycho sitting outside, randomly killing EVERY. FNCKING. PLAYER. coming through.

Give me a place in low|null where I can play with (or against!) civilized people, and without having to join some Sperglord's corp, and without having to constantly check local or Dscan for Greater Internet Fnckwads and I will go there right away.


You see, other people don't have such issues. It's not the game, it's you.



.
Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#160 - 2012-07-01 13:51:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Simetraz
Thor Kerrigan wrote:

--- EDIT 1 --- (after 5 pages) (POST #91)

So anyways... 5 pages I there is barely anyone who actually responded to the questions. Is it because the real highsec dwellers simply adapted and are playing the game or because they do not exist?

I honestly expected something along the lines:

1. Losing a ship should happen under two circumstances: when I make a mistake (vs NPC or player) or when someone invest more effort into ganking me than I invested protecting myself (vs player).

2. I should make enough money in highsec to barely pay for a PLEX on a good month. It makes no sense to me if I could make more, because the price would just shift accordingly since 80% of EVE's player-base (and henceforth the biggest chunk of PLEX customers) is in highsec. This also keeps the higher profit areas of the game relevant. Think about it, if we all could make 1 bil profit a month in highsec with "casual" playing, how long would it take before the minimum price for a PLEX peaks just a little over one bil?

These are actually my personal answers to those questions.


You do realize that some of the biggest money makers in EVE live in High-sec and the NEVER undock.
1- is a totally pointless question cause EVERYONE will come up with a different number.
2- for some 1 bill a month is a drop in the bucket for others it will take months to see that.
You truly don't understand how high-sec works and how much of a disparity there is between the players that live there.

EVERYBODY KNOWS