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The future of Community and CCL

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Author
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
#141 - 2012-06-27 10:44:45 UTC
Snippets from the last couple of days I loved.

ISD Athechu wrote:
1) Petitions cannot be discussed on the forums per CCP Forum Rules (Rule 9)...

Please note I am not an officer of ISD:CCL...
(whatever that means)
Graic Gabtar wrote:
Sorry but I don't think you are doing much but validate our perceptions of the ISD to be frank.

ISD Athechu wrote:
To be frank as well my job isn't to change your perception.

CCP Navigator wrote:
It has become apparent over the last 24 hours that players are upset at the perceived locking of legitimate discussion threads on the forums.
No Nav, don't worry. My perception is now very clear when it comes to the ISD.

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#142 - 2012-06-27 11:03:45 UTC
Mme Pinkerton wrote:
In my opinion the biggest simple improvements to forum moderation would be:

* rephrase any offending statements in an acceptable manner; the recent use of ----snip---- and ----edit---- often leaves posts incomprehensible.

* don't lock derailed threads, remove the derailing posts instead.

* make sure you understand the thread/post before taking any moderation action.
It's extremely frustrating to see a reasonable discussion get locked because the moderator did obviously only skim the "offending" posts, failed to understand sarcasm or context, ...

In short, moderators, please, don't let your actions be determined by laziness or hurry.
Try to teach by example and aim to reduce collateral damage above everything else.

The worst aspect of ---snip---, ---edit--- and just removing derailing posts is that I, as a poster, often don't get a single hint this has happened, unless I'm an OCD weirdo who regularly copies down all his posts and compare them, letter by letter, on a regular basis.

Which, again, means that I get absolutely no hints as to what I might be doing wrong, if anything, which means that I'll probably keep posting the way I do until it potentially escalates all the way to forum bans, with nary a clue as to why it got there in the first place.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Mme Pinkerton
#143 - 2012-06-27 11:17:22 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
The worst aspect of ---snip---, ---edit--- and just removing derailing posts is that I, as a poster, often don't get a single hint this has happened, unless I'm an OCD weirdo who regularly copies down all his posts and compare them, letter by letter, on a regular basis.

Which, again, means that I get absolutely no hints as to what I might be doing wrong, if anything, which means that I'll probably keep posting the way I do until it potentially escalates all the way to forum bans, with nary a clue as to why it got there in the first place.

I agree.

Maybe the existing notification system could be expanded to include moderator actions on your posts.
CCP Navigator
C C P
C C P Alliance
#144 - 2012-06-27 11:51:53 UTC
Vera Algaert wrote:
CCP Navigator wrote:
Rer Eirikr wrote:
Okay, I'm going to ask before I say anything else, because I really don't wanna say something I'm not allowed to say.* Can I discuss "that one website that starts with a K" and its forum moderation? If I can, and I will do so with the utmost care, I'd like to compare and contrast the moderation, the allowance of insults/etc., and the discussions that form as a result.

*No pun or rib intended here, I'm honestly just going slow on this one.


No, not really. I fail to see what another forum does has any relation to this forum. For example, if you were banned on Failheap should I extend that ban here so that we are in harmony? Would you find something of this nature to be fair? I would certainly not.

The rules of other forums, what they allow or do not allow is completely up to those communities and their administrators.


These other forums matter because they are the signs of your failures.

3rd party sites don't become successful "by accident" - they have to overcome several significant disadvantages to become successful (far fewer readers/posters than eve-o initially, no institutional checks & balances on forum mods, no chance of dev/GM replies to any posts, ...) and can only achieve success through eve-o failing to deliver whatever they have to offer.

Sometimes the shortcomings that 3rd party sites try to fix are a a lack of features - e.g. we probably wouldn't have eveger.de if eve-o hadn't taken 9 years to open a German forum section.

But more often than not the issue that drives people away from eve-o seems to be forum moderation:

Aries Acheron wrote:
Forum Wars: Scrapheap Challenge
Is it better than the Eve Forums?

In a word, yes. The Scrapheap Challenge forums are every damn thing that the Eve Online forums should be. Thanks to actually having rules against bullshit like alt posting, unrestricted political smacktalk and downright lying, the SHC forums are a bastion of light compared to the blistering cesspool of internet spaceship dung that are the Eve Online Forums.

[...]

Largely, it just seems that SHC is the best parts of E-O with only a small amount of the bad. Because of it’s more exclusive membership, active modding and intelligent, generally laid back posters, it’s just a downright better place. Sign up now, but don’t be a moron and ruin it for the rest of us, mmmkay?


Quote:
This is the first & only uncensored EVE Online Forum... This is the premier site for airing EVE Online's dirty laundry. Kugutsumen was started by the disenfranchised AnthonyZ, who was permanently banned from EVE Online following his much-publicized revelation of a CCP developer cheating on behalf of his alliance.


Quote:
What is [email protected]?

Backstage is a place for EVE players to discuss aspects of EVE-Online, particularly as they pertain to role-playing, in an open and mature environment. Old and new, pirate and bear - all are welcome!

Our intention is to offer a culture that encourages discussion over argument and mutual respect over enmity through the use of clear posting guidelines along with explanations of what is considered acceptable and unacceptable; meaningful discussion is to be valued above theatrics and hyperbolic argument in pursuit of 'winning' threads.. The main idea here is that while IC people might be enemies, the forum is OOC and as such people should act like adults discussing their mutual hobby.


I didn't dig deep enough to find the rationale for the existence of chatsubo - but at least their (ultimately unsuccessful) attempt at creating an IC forum was also due to gripes with moderation on the eve-o IGS (e.g. linkage).

Bad forum moderation is what drives people to 3rd party sites and by doing so threatens to fracture the eve community.

I think the most impressive negative example of such developments are the Blizzard' battle.net forums.
If I am interested in SC2 I go to teamliquid.net.
If I am generally interested in WoW I go to mmo-champion.com.
If I am interested in WoW PvE & theorycrafting I go elitistjerks.com.
If I am interested in WoW PvP I go to arenajunkies.com.
If I want to recruit for my WoW guild I go to tankspot.com, elitistjerks.com and mmo-champion.com.
If I am interested in Diablo 3 I go to mmo-champion.com or diablofans.com.

Left on the battle.net forums are only the newbies who don't know any better and a couple of MVPs who desperately try to keep the forums alive.

(Also notice how one company [Curse] operates three of the sites I just mentioned - they recognized the business opportunity provided by Blizzard's near complete failure in community management.)

Now, luckily EVE is not in that state just yet - a lot of the relevant eve-related discussion still happens on eve-o itself.
I attribute this (partial) success mostly to the flexibility with which the forum moderators have handled the enforcement of forum rules in the different subforums in the past, accomodating the individual "style" of each one.
Sadly the new ISD moderators seem to lack this crucial sensitivity.

Always enforcing the forum rules down to a t may work fine for the Market Discussions forum (well, unless you start treating IPO/Loan threads as "selling services" or "begging") but you could (for example) never hope to keep the C&P community on eve-o if you would decide to go down that road.

And, as the German/Russian language communities show, once you lost one subcommunity to a 3rd party site it won't come back even if you have fixed the issue that caused them to leave.


Other thrid party sites do not have a legal...
CCP Navigator
C C P
C C P Alliance
#145 - 2012-06-27 11:54:23 UTC
Graic Gabtar wrote:
Snippets from the last couple of days I loved.

ISD Athechu wrote:
1) Petitions cannot be discussed on the forums per CCP Forum Rules (Rule 9)...

Please note I am not an officer of ISD:CCL...
(whatever that means)
Graic Gabtar wrote:
Sorry but I don't think you are doing much but validate our perceptions of the ISD to be frank.

ISD Athechu wrote:
To be frank as well my job isn't to change your perception.

CCP Navigator wrote:
It has become apparent over the last 24 hours that players are upset at the perceived locking of legitimate discussion threads on the forums.
No Nav, don't worry. My perception is now very clear when it comes to the ISD.



Hello Graic.

I totally get it. You do not like ISD and there is not much I can do to change your perception.

My role is to ensure that ISD work for the vast majority of the EVE Online players. The concept of pleasing everyone is an impossibility so i am well aware that not everyone will be happy.
CCP Navigator
C C P
C C P Alliance
#146 - 2012-06-27 11:55:42 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Mme Pinkerton wrote:
In my opinion the biggest simple improvements to forum moderation would be:

* rephrase any offending statements in an acceptable manner; the recent use of ----snip---- and ----edit---- often leaves posts incomprehensible.

* don't lock derailed threads, remove the derailing posts instead.

* make sure you understand the thread/post before taking any moderation action.
It's extremely frustrating to see a reasonable discussion get locked because the moderator did obviously only skim the "offending" posts, failed to understand sarcasm or context, ...

In short, moderators, please, don't let your actions be determined by laziness or hurry.
Try to teach by example and aim to reduce collateral damage above everything else.

The worst aspect of ---snip---, ---edit--- and just removing derailing posts is that I, as a poster, often don't get a single hint this has happened, unless I'm an OCD weirdo who regularly copies down all his posts and compare them, letter by letter, on a regular basis.

Which, again, means that I get absolutely no hints as to what I might be doing wrong, if anything, which means that I'll probably keep posting the way I do until it potentially escalates all the way to forum bans, with nary a clue as to why it got there in the first place.


You make a good point and perhaps this is something we can code into the software so that you can see your original and compare it to the edit.

Truth of the matter is that they are not deleting good content from your posts and leaving bad stuff there.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#147 - 2012-06-27 12:12:38 UTC
CCP Navigator wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
The worst aspect of ---snip---, ---edit--- and just removing derailing posts is that I, as a poster, often don't get a single hint this has happened, unless I'm an OCD weirdo who regularly copies down all his posts and compare them, letter by letter, on a regular basis.

Which, again, means that I get absolutely no hints as to what I might be doing wrong, if anything, which means that I'll probably keep posting the way I do until it potentially escalates all the way to forum bans, with nary a clue as to why it got there in the first place.


You make a good point and perhaps this is something we can code into the software so that you can see your original and compare it to the edit.

This won't really help me in any way, shape or form unless I also have an easy way to see that it has been done without having to read through literally every post I've ever made.

CCP Navigator wrote:
Truth of the matter is that they are not deleting good content from your posts and leaving bad stuff there.

That is debatable, I've seen posts which have been literally butchered to death, and what was removed was in my mind not even remotely close to "bad stuff", and the "good stuff" which was left there made absolutely no sense because it was either a preface of, or it depended on, what was removed.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Kristan Konraden
The Hatchery
#148 - 2012-06-27 12:18:59 UTC
CCP Navigator wrote:

Other thrid party sites do not have a legal obligation to keep their forums teen rated and suitable for 13 year olds. We do. This means that wht other forums can allow we are not able to permit.


Is there a way to get around this obligation? Like making parts of the forum non-public with age verification? The average Eve player could be the daddy of your 13 year old kid....
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#149 - 2012-06-27 12:19:37 UTC
Mara Tessidar wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
Mara Tessidar wrote:
It's okay to call someone stupid, as long as they are stupid and you can back that statement up with a witty post, such as pointing out a nameless-yet-well-known player's prior history as a roleplaying spacehooker.


Which becomes an issue when "said history" is a Goonswarm fabrication for a campaign for harrassment that has in the past completely swept beyond these forums into the realm of RL cyber-stalking and poison pen letters to employers. Let me be totally blunt to you Mara Tessidar. Your alliance mates made up the nonsense you are happily posting. As far as I know nobody in Eve has roleplayed a "spacehooker" and you continuing to peddle a clumsy lie just seems like desperate attempted bluster every time you end up losing a debate or argument on these forums.

Sometimes you just need to stop and think about what you are posting rather than blindly echoing the things posted on your alliance wiki. Posting RL pictues of eve players there and accusing them of child abuse and pedophilia might well be an accepted practise on Something Awful forums but continually attempting to smear the RL reputations of eve players is not something these forums should be a party to.

At this point you are the problem Mara Tessidar. And you are exactly the sort of person whose behaviour needs moderating on Eve online forums if the environment is to be improved for everyone.


You have committed--would have committed, even if you had never set pen to paper, or finger to key--the essential crime that contains all others in itself. Thoughtcrime, we call it. Thoughtcrime is not a thing that can be concealed forever. You might dodge successfully for a while, even for years, but sooner or later we are bound to get you.


And you have committed repeat attempts to smear the RL reputation of a fellow Eve player over political differences in an online game. Lets sit back and think about that for a moment. Because of internet spaceships you are hosting a RL picture of an "enemy eve player" alongside the allegation they molest children. Thats pretty much "out-there" and shows you people are taking an online game to a ridiculous degree.

Goonswarm "Propaganda"

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom

David Toviyah
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#150 - 2012-06-27 12:21:21 UTC
CCP Navigator wrote:
Ok, here is what I will say about the use of 'Jewgold', Jewing' and other terms of that nature. They don't add anything of value to a discussion. The very terminology is offensive to many and completely unnecessary. There are many of our players who are Jewish and they should not be subjected to phrasing which makes them and others feel uncomfortable.
“Many people”? Really? Is there any evidence for this? To me it seems that it is actually just a couple of rather vocal people who keep bringing this up. Could we get a poll or something on this?
CCP Navigator
C C P
C C P Alliance
#151 - 2012-06-27 12:23:49 UTC
David Toviyah wrote:
CCP Navigator wrote:
Ok, here is what I will say about the use of 'Jewgold', Jewing' and other terms of that nature. They don't add anything of value to a discussion. The very terminology is offensive to many and completely unnecessary. There are many of our players who are Jewish and they should not be subjected to phrasing which makes them and others feel uncomfortable.
“Many people”? Really? Is there any evidence for this? To me it seems that it is actually just a couple of rather vocal people who keep bringing this up. Could we get a poll or something on this?


No. CCP do not tolerate religious, racial or sexist messaging which is used to cause discomfort to other players.

That will not change, ever.
CCP Navigator
C C P
C C P Alliance
#152 - 2012-06-27 12:24:33 UTC
I have deleted posts which are off topic for this discussion. Jade and Goons, cut it out on this thread.

Thank you.
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
#153 - 2012-06-27 12:29:38 UTC
CCP Navigator wrote:
Hello Graic.

I totally get it. You do not like ISD and there is not much I can do to change your perception.

My role is to ensure that ISD work for the vast majority of the EVE Online players. The concept of pleasing everyone is an impossibility so i am well aware that not everyone will be happy.
Hello Navigator,

I would not call it a dislike of the ISD as such - conceptually the idea should be fine.

The implementation is the problem. It has been poor, and honestly I think this is a knock on effect of how these forums are moderated overall.

No, you will not please everyone all of the time. However, the neatly crafted rules that simply provide a layer of obfuscation to people discussing what concerns them fails because the petition system is effectively broken for forum issues. Going forward i predict there will be a lot of displeased people in that "everyone".

So respectfully if you think having the ISD simply locking threads, or making annoying edits will work for the vast majority of players, then more power to you.


David Toviyah
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#154 - 2012-06-27 12:34:48 UTC  |  Edited by: David Toviyah
CCP Navigator wrote:
No. CCP do not tolerate religious, racial or sexist messaging which is used to cause discomfort to other players.

That will not change, ever.
But isn’t this the crux of the whole debate? A few people claim that they are offended by the use of these words even though they are not the ones addressed. If two people talk to each other and one of them says, for instance, that he himself is “jewing” or something of that sort (I have never seen it being used myself) then you simply cannot claim that the intent of this phrase is “to cause discomfort to other players”. Especially if neither of the two interlocutors take offense to it. Why should a third party that is listening in on this conversation have a say in what words these two people may or may not use? Where will this end? Mandatory trigger warnings so that victims of rape who might be playing EVE are not discomforted when they stumble upon someone mentioning “abuse” in Local?

People have the right to be offended but they do not have the right to censor everyone else’s speech because of that. Just my two cents.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#155 - 2012-06-27 12:38:04 UTC
CCP Navigator wrote:
I have deleted posts which are off topic for this discussion. Jade and Goons, cut it out on this thread.

Have any of my posts been deleted, since I'm mentioned by association?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Frying Doom
#156 - 2012-06-27 12:39:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Removed by user

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

David Toviyah
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#157 - 2012-06-27 12:42:44 UTC  |  Edited by: David Toviyah
Removed by user because user removed his post.
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#158 - 2012-06-27 12:42:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Constantine
Scatim Helicon wrote:
As I've told you before Jade, you're in no position to be throwing stones on this issue since the same happened to CCP Sreegs in his former job after he clashed with you on these very forums and the CSM. You're trying to have your cake and eat it: Somebody goes to your employer and tells them embarrassing stories about what you supposedly do on the internet, you yell from every rooftop that its a Goonswarm conspiracy and we as an alliance are collectively to blame. Somebody does the same to Sreegs and you throw your hands up and say 'nothing to do with me or my alliance, could have been anyone, its a big internet out there'.


Of course what actually happened is that I condemed both incidents without reservation and I recently said as much in the assembly hall topic on subject. "

Proposal] CSM Member Real Life Names
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=89537&p=7

I condemn without reservation smear attacks on a persons real life identity over differences in an online game. And in this case I'd think I'm pretty much on the money to blame Goonswarm for this action, seeing as how the same posters are making the same allegations, linking the same links and hosting the same vile allegations of child abuse on the goon wiki referenced in this very thread (as began and have continued without let up since 2008).

Here's the text from my support of Liang Nuren's proposal.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1064327#post1064327

Quote:
"As a player who has suffered my fair share of real life harrassment from Goonswarm (and friends) ever since my real name was provided to the community as part of my successful CSM 1 run, I could certainly see the argument for going back in time and reversing this policy.

In retrospect sure, the fact my real name was provided to enemies in Eve allowed some people to search for my online CV, take my pictures, find my employers past and current and begin an organized campaign of harrassment against my real identity. Sites were created specifically to portray me in the worst possible light and links were provided to my place of work along with letters perporting to be from "concerned parents" that a person like me should be playing an online game.

Even today real life photograph is hosted on the goonwiki alongside the accusation I'm putting GHB into children's drinks.

So yes, real life harrassment does certainly arise from the fact that CSM candidates are required to give their real names because some subscribers to this game are completely incapable of keeping their animosity to in-game only behaviour.

At this point I will support your topic to remove people's real life names from the process on the provisio it goes further and makes any unauthorized link to somebody's personal detals, photographs a eula breaching offence punishable by a signifcant ban.

Out of game harrassment/bullying must be completely outlawed in Eve online if this game is to repair its toxic reputation in the wider gaming community

And incidently I would like to call upon the administrators of the goonwiki to remove all reference to my rl photograph and allegations of criminal activity otherwise I will again petition the GM's at CCP to take action in this case. "


If this current topic is a sign that CCP is finally going to take action to outlaw this kind of behaviour from the main Eve Online forums then thats a very good development.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom

Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#159 - 2012-06-27 12:44:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Constantine
CCP Navigator wrote:
I have deleted posts which are off topic for this discussion. Jade and Goons, cut it out on this thread.
Thank you.



Navigator, I'm sorry that this argument keeps coming back. But is it really off topic for a thread about the future of community moderation to talk about a recurring form of bullying and smearing that has been going on since 2008?

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom

Frying Doom
#160 - 2012-06-27 12:53:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Jade if it concerns you that much and as I noted he had a picture of someone(Supposedly you) on it just contact the Host and have them kill the site. It isn't hosted in a country immune to laws.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!