These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Is Risk-Free Lowsec/Nullsec Travel Appropriate in EvE???
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Adelphie
The Lone Wolves.
#81 - 2012-06-26 22:01:25 UTC
I'm lazy and haven't read the majority of the posts in this thread, but it won't stop me throwing in my tuppence.

One thing which I don't think should be viable is jumping before you've sat out your session timer. The situation where you can cyno jump before you can even be target, I hope, is an unintended "feature" which I would like to see changed in the future.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#82 - 2012-06-26 22:23:00 UTC
Adelphie wrote:
I'm lazy and haven't read the majority of the posts in this thread, but it won't stop me throwing in my tuppence.

One thing which I don't think should be viable is jumping before you've sat out your session timer. The situation where you can cyno jump before you can even be target, I hope, is an unintended "feature" which I would like to see changed in the future.


The session change timer exists so all the right databases and system environments get loaded before you change it all up again by jumping, docking, or what not...

The undock invulnerability timer is 30 seconds, which is the same length of time as the old session change timer. When they changed EvE's innards to be more efficient, they reduced the session change timer to 10 seconds, but haven't modified the undock invulnerability timer to match it.... I think people like the 30 second invuln timer, as it allows them to assess the situation and decided on "the best" course of action before being forced into combat.

As soon as you activate a module, change direction, etc, you give up your invulnerability. Jumping gives up your invulnerability, but since it happens the moment you hit the jump option, only a bubble can stop you from jumping (because you can't jump inside a bubble).
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#83 - 2012-06-26 22:24:54 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Adelphie wrote:
I'm lazy and haven't read the majority of the posts in this thread, but it won't stop me throwing in my tuppence.

One thing which I don't think should be viable is jumping before you've sat out your session timer. The situation where you can cyno jump before you can even be target, I hope, is an unintended "feature" which I would like to see changed in the future.


The session change timer exists so all the right databases and system environments get loaded before you change it all up again by jumping, docking, or what not...

The undock invulnerability timer is 30 seconds, which is the same length of time as the old session change timer. When they changed EvE's innards to be more efficient, they reduced the session change timer to 10 seconds, but haven't modified the undock invulnerability timer to match it.... I think people like the 30 second invuln timer, as it allows them to assess the situation and decided on "the best" course of action before being forced into combat.

As soon as you activate a module, change direction, etc, you give up your invulnerability. Jumping gives up your invulnerability, but since it happens the moment you hit the jump option, only a bubble can stop you from jumping (because you can't jump inside a bubble).


The reason it remained at 30s is because you still have to load space. The timer starts upon undock, not when your client catches up.
Mongo Edwards
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#84 - 2012-06-26 23:37:33 UTC
To clarify my last post:

You think that cyno jumping is risk free. Adding a spool up timer for the jump drive makes the capitals vulnerable in the departure system. Which seems to satisfy your requirement for adding risk to the move while at the same time slowing down the capital force protection - the whole two for one thing.

From reading the rest of the pages why must additional risk be present in the arrival system? With the spool up timer you already give potential attackers a head start as far as getting to the beacon and blowing it up or lighting their own - which adds a lot of risk on its own.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#85 - 2012-06-26 23:48:23 UTC
carriers jumping to undocks is really not a big problem compared to, say, cap regen-fit supercapitals recharging to jump cap before losing invulnerability, effectively immune in lowsec

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#86 - 2012-06-26 23:52:06 UTC
oh wait no "please don't nerf supers again, people paid a lot of iskies for them (("

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#87 - 2012-06-26 23:53:48 UTC
Mongo Edwards wrote:
To clarify my last post:

You think that cyno jumping is risk free. Adding a spool up timer for the jump drive makes the capitals vulnerable in the departure system. Which seems to satisfy your requirement for adding risk to the move while at the same time slowing down the capital force protection - the whole two for one thing.

From reading the rest of the pages why must additional risk be present in the arrival system? With the spool up timer you already give potential attackers a head start as far as getting to the beacon and blowing it up or lighting their own - which adds a lot of risk on its own.


I'm not oppsed to your idea, I asked for clarification of what you mean (and i'm still not certain!!).

Given your last statement, this is what I think you mean:

I undock in my starting system. My fleet mate lights a Cyno, which goes up instantly, in the destination system.
I then initiate my cynojump from my starting system to my destination system. This requires a spoolup, which you proclaim to be a period of vulnerability.

If I can cancel that spoolup timer, and instantly redock, because a titan decloaked on grid is gonna nuke me.... your suggestion adds no risk to the cyno travel process. It just means you can trap ships in a station and prevent them from leaving (which you can already do with bubbles). I don't see this as changing anything....

If you cannot cancel the spoolup timer, the cynojumping ship is at a serious risk of getting nuked by that titan... This would definitely achieve my desired goal (add risk to cyno traveling), but I think it might be too much.... Personally, I'd rather have the instant jump to a deepsafe cyno of my chosing than the spoolup risk.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#88 - 2012-06-26 23:56:59 UTC
hey Gizznitt Malikite do you actually think that titan pilots cloak up near popular cyno spots waiting for somebody to hop in

because literally nobody in the game does that

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#89 - 2012-06-26 23:57:27 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
carriers jumping to undocks is really not a big problem compared to, say, cap regen-fit supercapitals recharging to jump cap before losing invulnerability, effectively immune in lowsec


huh???

Last time I checked, you do NOT have ANY invulnerability or immunity upon entering system via a cynojump.

You only have invulnerability when undocking (which supercaps can't do) or stargate jumping (which caps can't do). Am I missing something???
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#90 - 2012-06-27 00:03:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Desturned
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
huh???

Last time I checked, you do NOT have ANY invulnerability or immunity upon entering system via a cynojump.

You only have invulnerability when undocking (which supercaps can't do) or stargate jumping (which caps can't do). Am I missing something???


Hi jump a ship to a cyno and try to target it, you have the same invulnerability as you do when taking a jump bridge - you're invulnerable until 30 seconds are up or you activate a module

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#91 - 2012-06-27 00:04:10 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
hey Gizznitt Malikite do you actually think that titan pilots cloak up near popular cyno spots waiting for somebody to hop in

because literally nobody in the game does that


People do all sorts of stupid things with their titans.... you'd be amazed!!

I don't think it's the norm, but I put it in the example just to give the most extreme danger Mongo's suggestion implies.

@ Mongo....

Also, what happens to the cyno ship if it's tackled during the spoolup timer? It's jump becomes cancelled so it can redock, I'd assume... And then the question comes of what is a reasonable spoolup timer that actually gives risk to the jumping ship?? As Richard pointed out, titans are an extreme case, and if it's only vulnerable to a titan DD or fleet of SC's, then it's not really vulnerable except under extreme circumstances...
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#92 - 2012-06-27 00:07:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Richard Desturned wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
huh???

Last time I checked, you do NOT have ANY invulnerability or immunity upon entering system via a cynojump.

You only have invulnerability when undocking (which supercaps can't do) or stargate jumping (which caps can't do). Am I missing something???


Hi jump a ship to a cyno and try to target it, you have the same invulnerability as you do when taking a jump bridge - you're invulnerable until 30 seconds are up or you activate a module


That just makes the whole safe cyno travel EVEN MORE SAFE.... Not only are you untargetable when you undock, but your untargetable when you cyno in long enough to wait out your 10s session change timer and dock!!

I'll test this tonight... I've never not been able to target a ship cyno'ing in! However, usually it's not the ships cynoing in I'm targeting...
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#93 - 2012-06-27 00:12:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Desturned
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
I'll test this tonight... I've never not been able to target a ship cyno'ing in! However, usually it's not the ships cynoing in I'm targeting...


The invulnerability you get when jumping to a cyno is different from the invulnerability you get when undocking. When undocking, you can't target anything while invulnerable. When jumping to a cyno, you can target things, but you lose invulnerability the moment you ctrl-click.

When jumping to a cyno, you're invulnerable for 30 seconds until you either activate modules, start moving or you target something. If you don't believe me, jump, say, a carrier to a cyno and try to lock the carrier with the cyno alt when it appears.

If CCP were to nerf the ability to jump to docking rings, dudes would simply hop through lowsec in cap regen fit carriers, and as long as they regen to jump cap before losing invulnerability, they are literally immune outside of bubbleland.

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Qolde
Scrambled Eggs Inc.
#94 - 2012-06-27 00:44:58 UTC
It's bad enough being camped in a station with a cap ship. You might have to wait weeks for an opportunity to jump if you happen to pick the wrong station to stage out of. If your carrier is holding your deadspace fit machariel, and all the loot from all the work you've done in it, you're not going to risk it at all. You'd only jump to and/or from empty systems. This would do nothing to make cap ships vulnerable. It would just decrease the opportunities to travel when they are invulnerable. This would mean nothing for a large alliance who can blob together for logistics, and hurt the solo multiboxing casual player immensely. It would effectively relegate them to hisec.

It's hard enough to get through 0.0 with these mechanics, if you don't have a sea of blue to depend on. Removing more waypoints from the already paltry map is absurd. I agree, there should be a way to present the same risks in lowsec, maybe. But 0.0 is risky enough. Go park your cap in 1dh. Firesale. That's risk if you ask me.

If someone craps in your sandbox: 1. Light it on fire 2. Grab your shovel 3. Throw it back at them.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#95 - 2012-06-27 01:45:10 UTC
Qolde wrote:
Go park your cap in 1dh. Firesale. That's risk if you ask me.

It's ... interesting you mention that...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#96 - 2012-06-27 02:07:13 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
I'll test this tonight... I've never not been able to target a ship cyno'ing in! However, usually it's not the ships cynoing in I'm targeting...


The invulnerability you get when jumping to a cyno is different from the invulnerability you get when undocking. When undocking, you can't target anything while invulnerable. When jumping to a cyno, you can target things, but you lose invulnerability the moment you ctrl-click.

When jumping to a cyno, you're invulnerable for 30 seconds until you either activate modules, start moving or you target something. If you don't believe me, jump, say, a carrier to a cyno and try to lock the carrier with the cyno alt when it appears.

If CCP were to nerf the ability to jump to docking rings, dudes would simply hop through lowsec in cap regen fit carriers, and as long as they regen to jump cap before losing invulnerability, they are literally immune outside of bubbleland.


To be honest, I thought this was a troll to encourage people to jump their ships into unsafe situations while thinking they were invulnerable... But that's not the case, and you speak true!!! You have 30 seconds of invulnerability after cyno jumping where nothing can target you (unless you break that invulnerability by activating mods, targetting people, etc).

Essentially, for the patient pilot that's in the know.... there is ZERO risk jumping from station to station.... because you are under station or jump invulnerability during the entire process, except for the 1 second it takes your ship to accepta docking request.

The only risks come from incompetence: Poor cyno placement, panicking when if you bounce, etc...
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#97 - 2012-06-27 02:27:31 UTC
Qolde wrote:
It's bad enough being camped in a station with a cap ship. You might have to wait weeks for an opportunity to jump if you happen to pick the wrong station to stage out of. If your carrier is holding your deadspace fit machariel, and all the loot from all the work you've done in it, you're not going to risk it at all. You'd only jump to and/or from empty systems. This would do nothing to make cap ships vulnerable. It would just decrease the opportunities to travel when they are invulnerable. This would mean nothing for a large alliance who can blob together for logistics, and hurt the solo multiboxing casual player immensely. It would effectively relegate them to hisec.

It's hard enough to get through 0.0 with these mechanics, if you don't have a sea of blue to depend on. Removing more waypoints from the already paltry map is absurd. I agree, there should be a way to present the same risks in lowsec, maybe. But 0.0 is risky enough. Go park your cap in 1dh. Firesale. That's risk if you ask me.


They changed kickout stations so capitals never undock outside of docking range (unless I'm wrong). As such, the only way someone could keep your carrier camped in station, is to permabubble the undock... You undock, ctrl+space, wait 10 seconds, if there is no bubble, you cyno out. If there is a bubble, you redock... They can't even bump you while your under the undock invulnerability. It takes a lot of dedication (or at least anchored bubbles on the undock), to prevent you from leaving!!

To prevent you coming, they have to prevent you from lighting a cyno. Granted, this is easier than preventing you leaving, as you really need to position your cyno in a location that insures your carrier will cyno into dock range and doesn't bump the station.

While I understand you take extra precautions with your precious toys, it doesn't change the fact that cyno travel is extremely safe and risk free when done right!!!

Dirk Magnum
Spearhead Endeavors
#98 - 2012-06-27 02:29:36 UTC
Easiest solution is to just split the difference. Keep the mechanics for cynoing out the same, but establish a minimum distance from docking range for lit cynos and don't allow jumping into a cyno located within a bubble.

1. Permacamped stations aren't completely unable to move anything out, but...

2. There's more risk trying to get stuff in.


Doesn't meet all of OP's requirements but it keeps the supply flow disrupted by a blockading force with sufficient dedication.

Next, to address hotdropping, add a five second spin-up time for cyno jumping. Make the jumping ship invulernable to electronic warfare (or station invulnerability, if applicable) during this time, but if the cyno lighter is destroyed or the cyno placed in a bubble before the ship jumps, the jump is cancelled. Capacitor power is not deducted until a successful jump occurs.
Hot drops would remain a viable tactic, but would become more difficult to pull off effectively against small gangs or individuals fighting other small gangs or individuals, where a cyno ship can quickly be identified and destroyed or (in Nul), bubbled. Presto, you've got a solo/small-gang PvP buff.

                      "LIVE FAST DIE." - traditional Minmatar ethos [citation needed]
Qolde
Scrambled Eggs Inc.
#99 - 2012-06-27 02:34:49 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Qolde wrote:
Go park your cap in 1dh. Firesale. That's risk if you ask me.

It's ... interesting you mention that...

Isn't it?Blink

If someone craps in your sandbox: 1. Light it on fire 2. Grab your shovel 3. Throw it back at them.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#100 - 2012-06-27 04:17:36 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
As such, the only way someone could keep your carrier camped in station, is to permabubble the undock... You undock, ctrl+space, wait 10 seconds, if there is no bubble, you cyno out. If there is a bubble, you redock... They can't even bump you while your under the undock invulnerability. It takes a lot of dedication (or at least anchored bubbles on the undock), to prevent you from leaving!!

Is that what they call a...

rapecage?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?