Missions & Complexes

I think what the OP is trying to point out is that there isn't much incentive for new players to group in EVE, especially not when it comes to the mission system.

The first thing that needs to be clear is that very few players enter the game and then immediately move on towards low-sec or null, or attempt to find Corps that operate in those areas. In fact, most players enter this game thinking it offers roughly the same as other MMORPG's do... options to solo and options to do group content... without your character being blown up and your "gear" being robbed from you. Of course, after playing awhile people figure out how harsh EVE can be... but before that...

...a new player will most likely do one out of two things.

1) Missions
2) Mine

Both of those are pretty much solo activities in the start. L1 missions are pretty easy and doesn't require much. It's more or less an advanced tutorial area that lets you try out combat and figure out stuff you want to improve yourself and your ship.

Same can be said about the mining. You start blasting a rock with your Ibis, then start to look at how to improve yourself and how you can get more ore, what ship you can use to fit all these new modules you been reading about to generate even more income.

However, L1 missions progress into L2's, which are still solo oriented by the fact that you don't really need someone else with you to kill the rats. In fact, the game sort of discourages you from doing so since the rewards (ISK/LP/Standing) are effectively cut in half (or less depending on how many you fleet with). So people do L1's solo... and L2's... and L3's... and L4's.... and wonder where the group content is, if any at all.

On the flipside, as far as PvE activities go, those that are mining will progress not through a mission level system but rather through upgrading their ships from frigates to cruisers to mining barges to exhumers. While none of these requires any grouping either, it's much easier to actually do fleets when you mine since having an Orca around helps you alot, and having someone haul or do the refining, or build things from what you are mining quickily makes it more interesting as a group concept.

Thus the incentive for joining a player corp and doing things with others is much higher when mining than it is when doing missions. And it's a short journey from there to starting to join the corp in exploring wormholes, or null and so on.

For those doing missions however, you "grow up" in EVE with an idea that solo is the way to go. And once you start getting some nice ships and decent income, you don't really want to risk them in low-sec. Why would you? You never had to group before, you make good isk already with little risk, and why would you share your rewards with others when it's better isk/hour to just do missions alone?

---

I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to have group/fleet oriented missions. This could be achieved several ways, and I'm by no means a game developer so I'm just going to throw some thoughts out there.

What if a fleet mission had some restrictions, such as.... cannot enter an L1-fleet mission with ships larger than frigates (excluding T2 variants as well). The rewards would be higher, better standing increase and perhaps a chance of better items dropping? The rats would be tougher (better AI) as opposed to the regular solo missions. Rats changing targets, jamming you, using neuts, having more EHP and using both active and passive tanks et.c. would make the missions alot more challenging... and it would make players have to work together.

The missions would of course scale, being tough enough that you might need to use tactics such as bringing a tier 1 logi to do them, or try tactics such as long range sniping the rats if you don't have a logi.

I don't think it's impossible at all to create such a fleet-required mission system. And I think it would be a very positive thing to encourage new players, especially those looking to do combat (which is why alot of people do missions, they like to blow stuff up), to actually work together while they are learning the game. It would, in the long run, make them better prepared for going into PvP, and more accustomed to being in a fleet and already know the basics of the game mechanics around fleeting. Most likely they'll also be in a player corp instead of an NPC corp, which in itself counts for alot.

Dedicated PvE'ers could run these fleet missions together as a team and/or a Corp, instead of everyone just doing their own L4 alone. Cause the simple fact is, as I said, the current mission system ONLY serves to encourage the "play it solo and play it safe" gameplay. People doing missions don't leave the NPC corp simply because there is no reason to when doing missions. The taxation is low enough that you don't really notice the loss.

CCP wants people to leave NPC corps.
CCP wants people to engage in low and null.

However, no new players, or band of new players, is going to simply fleet up and go roaming in low or null with their rocket-fitted Condors. They need to be eased into the game first, learning the ropes, and part of that 'easing' is getting them familiar with fleets and teamwork.

What better way to do so than actually have a mission system where they can learn these things and have a better understanding of how the game works?

In order to achieve what I understand as the EVE world you want, you'd have to remove highsec entirely. The game would then be pretty open to PvP right from the getgo, without the PvE element, and everyone would be into the risk-your-ship world the minute they start out. While this certainly would be the "best" way to get people involved with PvP and understand that EVE is a world that is centered around player teamwork, corporations and making ships go bang, I see so many gaping holes in that setup.

First off... new players most likely don't know anyone in the game. They have no experience, no know-how or way of understand what is going on before they are most likely blown up. When you don't know anyone, how can you go about being part of a corporation, or joining up a fleet, to do all these team-oriented things?

The simple fact is, every new player needs an arena where they can learn the game without constantly being killed. Hence why we have high-sec in the first place. To provide an arena where there is no (or at least relatively little) risk to your ship, and where you can work up a knowledge about the game itself, the mechanics, gameplay and most important of all, start building friendships that lead into fleets, corporations and alliances. Removing the mission system altogether would do nothing but remove the only way new players have of experiencing combat in a place where they won't be immediately destroyed.

And don't even try to convince me that more experienced players wouldn't be waiting like sharks with their higher skills, better ships and improved modules if there were "free ganks" to be had across the galaxy.

There are some new players that brave the "dangerous" low-sec systems to test the waters, and most of those are returned to highsec in an "egg" as they prefer to call it, regardless if they fly a failfit tier 1 frigate (note: TIER, not Tech). Pushing every player into the PvP world of EVE without any experience would be the number one way to reduce the influx of new EVE players to about half of what it currently is.

Furthermore, while PvP is a huge element in the EVE world, and it's certainly one of the most fun and thrilling ones in addition to bonding players together in a corp or as a team... there is still ALOT of players who have zero interest in PvP. Just like most MMO's out there, there is always a PvP community as well as a PvE community... and of course those that enjoy both aspects of a game. In EVE you can't have PvP without the PvE element. If every PvE player packed up and left EVE, you'd be out of minerals in a month... which means no more ammunition, modules or ships. And soon after, when enough people blew eachother up, there'd be nothing but pods bumping eachother in space.

There is a synergi between PvE and PvP... which is related to the market by people mining ore, which becomes minerals, which is sold to people building ships and modules, which is sold to people who blow eachother up and then require new ships, which requires more ore and minerals, which creates a market for the miners again. It's all tied together in a wonderful loop of happiness.

Personally I enjoy many aspects of the game. I absolutely loved roaming in wormholes and hunting down other players. As much fun and thrill as the PvP is, there are periods when I absolutely love just relaxing, chatting with friends and corp mates while mining and then go build something to sell. Furthermore I enjoy flying around, without much risk, doing exploration in highsec... not because I need the ISK, or because I try to fund a PvP character or PLEX an account... but because I simply love not knowing if I get stuff worth millions, or nothing at all. But that's me, I'm a chaotic person since I can never keep myself doing the same thing for a prolonged period of time.

But there are others that have no interest whatsoever in PvP and find the same enjoyment I do with just mining, or doing exploration, or they like to hunt markets for prices, or build things to help their corp or to get rich. Why should these people be denied the chance to do something as a team with their friends, whether it's missions or mining?

Is EVE a game for only PvP'ers?
Is the main purpose of PvE in EVE only to fund your own PvP characters?
Or does PvE offer something in the game that makes it attractive to those not interested in PvP, and thus increase the playerbase by offering them something to do as well?

For me, that decision is made on a personal level by every individual podpilot in the game. I am never going to pass judgement on someone because of their choice of playstyle. If they want to mine and build ships... good, that means ships will be available to me whenever my own ship inevitably is blown up by someone when I PvP.

And if giving them fleet based missions means I'll one day have a newly joined corpmate on a PvP roam who actually understands how the overview works and how typical PvP modules like webbers, jammers and so forth make a difference, then I say good... it improves my own chance of survival in hostile waters.

As it is right now, bringing a fresh "only did missions" pilot with you on a PvP roam more than likely will end up with him shooting his own fleet members in confusion than doing anything sensible, because they have no experience with fleets, they have no experience with how to deal with jammers, dampners, webbers, scrambling, warping in and out on fleet members and so on.

I completely understand your point.

Funny too, cause my first experience (and also millions) in EVE was flying tobacco and other commodities between a highsec station where it was seeded, into a lowsec area where the price was quite good for them. And yeah, I had my industrial blown up a few times... oh well... at least it was blown up on way out, while empty and not on the way in, with 10 million ISK worth of tobacco... :P

I also agree that the current mission system is boring, grindy and more or less broken when measuring difficulty vs ISK/hour.

What I was attempting to point out though, in regards to implementing a fleet-based mission system, was NPC's with much improved AI (such as the sleepers/incursion NPC's) which will provide a much greater, and more realistic combat experience (and yes, I know PvE vs NPC's will never measure up to normal PvP) than the current simplistic missions.

CCP will never have a staff on a salary that actively run the newbie corps and do ops or roams with players. Even if they did, the chances are high that the majority of the players would simply ignore it, not participate or otherwise just do their own thing anyways. A handful of enthusiastic players would join, and that's it.

The game needs an "automated" way of teaching new players how things work and where they are allowed to test those things themselves. That is what missions do today, whether it's their main purpose or not, and we can of course come up with 75 reasons for why the missions are largely worthless when it comes to people learning how to actually PvP. At least they get to fire their guns and figure out why they need shield hardeners, or why their Dual Light pulse lasers are unable to damage something 20km away.

But I think it's important to take into consideration that even though people see EVE as a PvP game, and that the core gameplay of EVE is all about blowing up ships, you won't have a very successful game if there is nothing in it for those that enjoy PvE and only PvE. Some people like to blow ships up, some people like to build new ones. That's just how it goes, and EVE gives everyone something to do. If they enjoy PvE, then let them do PvE. And why shouldn't their gaming experience also have some room for improvement?

I doubt you can disagree with me when I put forward this statement... the 9 year old, stale, grindy mission system in EVE could really use a major overhaul.

I see nothing wrong with adding more multiplayer oriented gameplay in EVE, as the end result will just mean better players. Not to mention the increased chance that maybe someone gets blown up in a much harder, multiplayer mission.. which in turn keeps the wheels turning .... mining -> minerals -> ships -> blown up -> mining.

This pretty much sums it up. I really see a lack of ingenuity or drive expressed in some of these posts. Honestly, you don't need a step-by-step guide to do a bit of collective brainstorming in order to safely access some higher risk content. Remember, risk can be mitigated by planning.

I like so long as NPC corps are not allowed to participate in this.

Good idea!

I just want to point out the obvious again....

I am a HS L4 mission runner about half of my time. I WOULD go to lowsec to run missions. I really would! I would brave pirates and watch my scanners and do all of that stuff. In fact...I DID! I spent a couple months exclusively in lowsec running missions.

Why did I stop? I stopped because Losec, after EVERYTHING is said and done, pays about the same as l4's in Hisec.

Missions pay some more in Losec but you can't run as shiney a ship and so can't do them as fast. Also sometimes you will be hunted and have to lay up for a bit. Sometimes you will be interupted in your mission and need to flee. All of these things erode your efficiency and so, after all is said and done, it pays about what l4's in Hisec does...for MORE RISK AND EFFORT.

I mission in Hisec because that is where the best isk is for comparable risk. If you want me to go to Losec...I WILL! However, there has to be an economic reason to do so. I am NOT going to losec unless there is a financial reason to do so.

As some other poster once said, and I loved this, was that if Risk is the only motivation than load up a badger in Jita with Officer Mods and make the run to Serpentus Prime and back.

I will take risks. Hell, I will take HUGE risks but there needs to be an appropriate reward possibility for doing so.

Yeah, people said no one would do wormholes as well because it was "dangerous pve."

They were sure right about that, werent they?

Why do you keep writing essays?

Pretty sure I posted plenty of helpful comments. You just don't like them. Feel free to go back and read them again.

Make sure to write a thesis in response. That way your argument has validity or something.

I think missions, or mini incursion content that allows 3-5 players to work together is a good idea. Trying to keep 10 people together to do a corp incursion just doesn't work, especially if not all members are super skilled. Maybe bring lvl5's back to HS, and yes you null bears, drop the rewards so HS bears can't get rich :)