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Titan production
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Siestaa
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-06-21 10:58:22 UTC
Just for my knowledge,

what is the price/time of producing a titan (Ragnarok and Avatar) including the bpc, minerals, production time (pos fuel, and logistics) ?
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#2 - 2012-06-21 11:17:39 UTC
Siestaa wrote:
Just for my knowledge,

what is the price/time of producing a titan (Ragnarok and Avatar) including the bpc, minerals, production time (pos fuel, and logistics) ?

You can use the program in my sig to get a rough idea. Lots of variables to consider obviously.

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Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#3 - 2012-06-21 17:03:10 UTC
Siestaa wrote:
Just for my knowledge,

what is the price/time of producing a titan (Ragnarok and Avatar) including the bpc, minerals, production time (pos fuel, and logistics) ?


Wee bit more then just the basic cost of production, your going to need strong and competent defenses, thats the variable you have to consider first and formost.
Trollin
Perkone
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-06-21 22:38:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Trollin
8 wks build time~
62-69bn isk mineral (depend on component me level and avatar me level)
~4.5bn isk bpc
large pos fuel is running ~500m/month so 1bn there also

excludes defense expenses
excludes pos structures
excludes component bpc cost
excludes opportunity cost
this is very rough estimate, as always, math=answer

We are our own worst enemy.
Boomhaur
#5 - 2012-06-22 04:06:43 UTC
In short a lot of freaking money and logistics and a bit risky to do.

Welcome to Eve. Everyone here is an Evil Sick Sadistic Bastard who is out to get you. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either trying to scam you or use you.
Abditus Cularius
Clancularius Industries
#6 - 2012-06-22 06:09:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Abditus Cularius
I got out of commercially building supers some time back, and doubt I'd ever get back into it, but here's my experience. For reference, over the course of 10 months I built 26 SC (pre-nerf) and 7 titans. The building portion was entirely solo, save for an occasional alliance-mate tagging along for jumping compressed kit out to my build site

If you're building here-and-there titans for personal/alliance use, then really it's not terribly hard. Do whatever works.

To do it as a professional choice is quite a lot more complex, but is very much the "end game" for the industrialist, and was easily the most fun I ever had in eve.

If you're going at the building part of things solo - at a minimum you will need:


  • Compression lines in empire - 20-30 build slots cranking out 425 railguns.
  • 1 POS per CSAA you intend to keep active
  • 1 deathstar pos for the cyno jammer
  • 1 component building pos
  • 1 minny outpost upgraded to a tier 2 refinery
  • A lot of component BPOs. BPCs will not work for you for the components. Keeping the prebuild in pace with the current build via BPCs would require hundreds of character-based build slots per CSAA. This will be your single largest isk investiture. How many of which component you need to complete the "prebuild" of the next titan before the current one pops out varies by research level, which titans you're building, how many CSAA you're running simultaneously, et cetera. Do math here. Do lots of math here. This is the most important part of maintaining an uninterrupted build cycle.
  • Three titan BPOs per CSAA you intend to keep in action in highsec cranking copies is recommended, but not a all required, especially lately. With the instability in the 0.0 climates, most (but not all) for-not-internal-use builders have shut down for a while, so BPC supply is high and cost is low currently.
  • At least 30 locally based character based build-slots per CSAA you intend to keep running. More is better here, but you can scrape by on the minimum
  • At least 1 JF and the necessary cyno chain to get from your compression site to your 0.0 build site. More simultaneous JF is better, but not required


Now, on the defense side of things:

Never make a defense-for-discounted-hulls agreement with someone. They will take your discounted hulls and forget you when you get attacked.
Never trust a landlord to save you from attack. Renting is bad for this all around - you have hundreds of billions invested/floating in space, they see you as a coupla bil a month revenue stream that can be replaced. POS are easy to kill, and kill fast.

You essentially have two realistic options:

Do it as a "prepared-to-cut-and-run" operation via rent. Acknowledge that as soon as anyone anywhere realizes what you're doing, they'll hotdrop from the other side of the universe just to wee in your sandbox. Never talk about the scale/nature of your operation to anyone. Ever. Keep a minimum of equipment in open space at all times, and have ships prefit and JF prestaged in station, with numerous JC prestaged, so when the bad things happen, you can still recover your assets in station. Consider anything in space an automatic writeoff as soon as its there, and just pray you sell more titans than the eventual POS melting will lose you.

Find an alliance that you trust - hardcore, ultra-super, know them all in RL kind of trust - and offer to build in their space for a split of the profit. Again - do not do it as a discounted hulls for defense agreement. Once the hulls are out of your hands, you are out of leverage. Be an income stream they have a motivation to defend.

It's a lot of time, and a lot of risk, and there's more profitable ways to build things for money at substantially less ISK - but it most definitely is a visceral kind of joy, being able to pull off a logistics effort of this size.

Best of luck.
Siestaa
Doomheim
#7 - 2012-06-22 11:34:11 UTC
Thanks you for sharing your experience and information - doing some maths too as Trollin suggested.
Nyreanya
Serenity Labs
#8 - 2012-06-22 17:27:25 UTC
That was a very interesting post Abditus Cularius. Thanks for taking the time to give a perspective on what many consider the industrial end-game.

[/sarcasm]
Cengiz Han
Sunrise Technologies
#9 - 2012-06-26 12:21:12 UTC
epic experience :)
Katja Faith
Doomheim
#10 - 2012-06-28 15:28:11 UTC
Abditus Cularius wrote:
I got out of commercially building supers some time back, and doubt I'd ever get back into it, but here's my experience. For reference, over the course of 10 months I built 26 SC (pre-nerf) and 7 titans. The building portion was entirely solo, save for an occasional alliance-mate tagging along for jumping compressed kit out to my build site

If you're building here-and-there titans for personal/alliance use, then really it's not terribly hard. Do whatever works.

To do it as a professional choice is quite a lot more complex, but is very much the "end game" for the industrialist, and was easily the most fun I ever had in eve.

If you're going at the building part of things solo - at a minimum you will need:


  • Compression lines in empire - 20-30 build slots cranking out 425 railguns.
  • 1 POS per CSAA you intend to keep active
  • 1 deathstar pos for the cyno jammer
  • 1 component building pos
  • 1 minny outpost upgraded to a tier 2 refinery
  • A lot of component BPOs. BPCs will not work for you for the components. Keeping the prebuild in pace with the current build via BPCs would require hundreds of character-based build slots per CSAA. This will be your single largest isk investiture. How many of which component you need to complete the "prebuild" of the next titan before the current one pops out varies by research level, which titans you're building, how many CSAA you're running simultaneously, et cetera. Do math here. Do lots of math here. This is the most important part of maintaining an uninterrupted build cycle.
  • Three titan BPOs per CSAA you intend to keep in action in highsec cranking copies is recommended, but not a all required, especially lately. With the instability in the 0.0 climates, most (but not all) for-not-internal-use builders have shut down for a while, so BPC supply is high and cost is low currently.
  • At least 30 locally based character based build-slots per CSAA you intend to keep running. More is better here, but you can scrape by on the minimum
  • At least 1 JF and the necessary cyno chain to get from your compression site to your 0.0 build site. More simultaneous JF is better, but not required


Now, on the defense side of things:

Never make a defense-for-discounted-hulls agreement with someone. They will take your discounted hulls and forget you when you get attacked.
Never trust a landlord to save you from attack. Renting is bad for this all around - you have hundreds of billions invested/floating in space, they see you as a coupla bil a month revenue stream that can be replaced. POS are easy to kill, and kill fast.

You essentially have two realistic options:

Do it as a "prepared-to-cut-and-run" operation via rent. Acknowledge that as soon as anyone anywhere realizes what you're doing, they'll hotdrop from the other side of the universe just to wee in your sandbox. Never talk about the scale/nature of your operation to anyone. Ever. Keep a minimum of equipment in open space at all times, and have ships prefit and JF prestaged in station, with numerous JC prestaged, so when the bad things happen, you can still recover your assets in station. Consider anything in space an automatic writeoff as soon as its there, and just pray you sell more titans than the eventual POS melting will lose you.

Find an alliance that you trust - hardcore, ultra-super, know them all in RL kind of trust - and offer to build in their space for a split of the profit. Again - do not do it as a discounted hulls for defense agreement. Once the hulls are out of your hands, you are out of leverage. Be an income stream they have a motivation to defend.

It's a lot of time, and a lot of risk, and there's more profitable ways to build things for money at substantially less ISK - but it most definitely is a visceral kind of joy, being able to pull off a logistics effort of this size.

Best of luck.


Woof. Stellar post, sir. I didn't realize it was THAT big of a job, personally. Thanks again for an awesome post!
Abditus Cularius
Clancularius Industries
#11 - 2012-06-28 15:45:23 UTC
To be completely fair - if you're just rattling off 2-3 titans on no specific timeline for your alliance to use, it's honestly not a big job at all.

It's doing it for profit that turns it into a large scale operation - because a for-profit super building site is always a "Countdown to Meltdown," meaning you are always one day away from being shut down, and can not tolerate any slack periods in your build thoroughput, as those are all times your operation is at equal risk, but not churning the necessary profit to offset that risk.

The two labor points most folks (myself included) overlook when getting started in it as a virgin is the compression and the pre-production. These are the two biggest potential timesinks if mismanaged, and both easy to underestimate.
Siestaa
Doomheim
#12 - 2012-07-04 12:37:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Siestaa
And at the final build, how much can we hope to sell the hull nowadays ?


(maybe its a question which need to be posted in other sub-forum but can be another one more good information regarding the thread)
Abditus Cularius
Clancularius Industries
#13 - 2012-07-04 21:47:28 UTC
Bus and Avatar (the two that actually sell reliably) ~100b-ish, with a travel fit, last I saw.
The Smokey
SuperHuman Scouts
End Point
#14 - 2012-07-18 02:20:11 UTC
Being realistic you're probably going to have to ship yard blown up before the weeks of production are completed.
Abditus Cularius
Clancularius Industries
#15 - 2012-07-18 02:27:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Abditus Cularius
Eh, it depends on your location, how quiet you stay about what you're doing, and how "unattractive" you make visiting your system for random people (blues included).

Pick a system with a reasonably high truesec (lower brings more anom runners), out of the way to any pipe (ideally a deadend), collapse any nearby WH that form, bubble gates that are required to get to your system, but not necessarily yours (misdirected attention), et cetera. Above all, never talk about what you're doing or where to anyone, ever.

All that said, always do be prepared for the entire thing to be a writeoff from the moment anything is in space.

Edit to add: And avoid "superpower" sov all together. Either they'll be itching to move somewhere more valuable, or have someone itching to move in on them. Look for middle-tier sov holders who are stabile, but satisfied. That there are so few of those currently is why most the for-profit builders are out of the game for a bit.
P3po
Perkone
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-07-18 11:07:27 UTC
Also if you need this information from forums, you are not ready for that :D
Abditus Cularius
Clancularius Industries
#17 - 2012-07-18 11:57:29 UTC
There is such a thing as "becoming ready" - and reading tips from others is a good start to that process. It's a business that's extremely tight-lipped with little advice out there for folks looking to break in (for good reason) - and there's not a whole lot of other Eve activities that are very comparable to super building to gather experience from first hand.

I know when I started, it was very much a case of "jumping in the deep end" - and I created a lot of unnecessary work for myself in several ways until I hammered out the inobvious bumps.
P3po
Perkone
Caldari State
#18 - 2012-07-18 15:47:56 UTC
Yes, but he is also asking "basic manufacturing questions" and he is asking it directly on titans .... bussiness for which he needs 200B ISK +- to start with. If he dont know the basic manufacturing questions, or atleast he dont know how to find them out on his own, he will have hard time building titans :D