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New Dev Blog: Time Dilation Video Demo

First post First post
Author
mkint
#201 - 2011-10-05 09:05:26 UTC
Heribert vonSteiner wrote:
Quote:
- Jumping/Cynoing in is not treated specially. You jump, you land, you proceed slowly.


So I have a question about this specific topic.
If a fleet is slugfesting at System A and the TD is at let's say at MAX.
and a reinforcement fleet staging at System B (without TD).

SO RL Clock on both Systems A and B is 20:00 when the slugfest startet.

10 minutes later the reinforcement fleet ist all set up to hot drop the bad guys
they jump
WHEN will the reinforcement fleet apear on grid?

RL Clock on both systems say 20:10
but the internal clock at System A must be sometime around 20:01 because of TD

Will the jumping fleet have to wait for the internal clock to sync .. meaning they have to wait 90RL Minutes to resync?


the other posssibility would be they appear on grid at once.. meaning that they just generated 9 Eve-minutes out of thin air.

I know this is a worst case scenario.. but ... you have to think about them, too... don't you?

They'd go into the session change queue when they initiate the jump, so should show up immediately + lag. The difference between non-tidi and tidi is that:

instead of
*jump*->*black screen*->*black screen*->*fresh clone*

it should be
*jump*->*system loading bar*->*slo-mo combat*

What folks don't seem to understand is that all tidi is meant to do is throttle stuff so that if you push your buttons you can be confident that the server knows they've been pushed, and that the results of that button are what you'd expect on an unlagged node (just in slo-mo.)

So, yes, in theory you could have a GCC that lasts an hour. No funky "catching up" or "internal clock syncing" or any other nonsense trying to make what's a simple concept into a complicated mess.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Imigo Montoya
BreadFleet
Interstellar Triglavian Collective
#202 - 2011-10-05 10:17:05 UTC
CCP Veritas wrote:
Schmell wrote:
Ehm...why the user interface (camera, spitter etc) is slowing down in the first place? I thought time dilation is server side and should not affect strictly client-side things

Because I want to convey the slowdown to the player. In essense, make space *feel* slower when it really *is* slower. Do note that it's only a couple UI elements plus the camera, and I might go back on the camera one.


I would sure like to see this - making the UI seem glitchy probably isn't the ideal way to convey the message that time is behaving differently, certainly not camera control.

I'm seriously impressed though, really liking what I'm seeing.

At the same time I'm somewhat confused by the people hating on this. It seems to be coming from a place of ignorance so I wrote an article on EN24 that explains the fundamentals of what TiDi is actually trying to achieve in a way that I think is accessible to anyone (ie no Computer Science degree needed).

I'd really appreciate your feedback Veritas, especially if my generalisation conflicts with how the specifics in this case actually work.
Syri Taneka
NOVA-CAINE
#203 - 2011-10-05 15:14:08 UTC
Heh. Seems to me it might be entertaining to watch a couple hundred bot drakes slaughter each other with extreme prejudice = P
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#204 - 2011-10-05 18:30:59 UTC
Please no input lag.

Camera should point where I point it when I point it.
Anything else will just be annoying and confusing.
Wu Phat
311. Bomber squadron
GaNg BaNg TeAm
#205 - 2011-10-05 19:44:12 UTC
Max Pain meets Eve Awsome can the screen get like alittle cinamatic . Like the screen gets less color more grays blacks and whites.
Gracillus
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#206 - 2011-10-05 20:24:23 UTC
Have to say, I think this is a great idea. Anything that keeps eve semi playable in with a huge load on the node is a good thing, and making the lag affect (or effect - I can never remember which) everyone equally is a smart move.

But... PLEASE don't make the camera movement slow down! I have to echo the sentiments of others - this is not a needed feature, and I strongly hope that it is not implemented in the final release. Otherwise, again, great idea!
Niel Bohr
Amalgamated Mine Workers Local 01
#207 - 2011-10-06 00:56:56 UTC
Time dialation is a paralell with what we did in Napoleonics wargame going with full unphased turn resolution to a phased turn when armies got engaged, going back out when engagment paused etc... mirror images but basically the same concept.

Your on the right track beats the hell out of being frozen/lagged while being torn limb from limb that occurs in to many games......
Nekerjelnezest
Ten Below Zero
THE BESTICLES
#208 - 2011-10-06 07:22:38 UTC
Make lag to get reinforcements. You fight at quarter speed, your enemy gets there 4 times faster if coming from other nod.

Will Jita be dilated all the time? Twisted
Flamehaired Death
Doomheim
#209 - 2011-10-06 07:57:37 UTC
I have to agree that slowing the whole client side UI is focusing on the IRRITATION aspects of lag. Make the Time Dilation indicator bigger if you are afraid people will miss the slowing.


So let the purely UI elements of the EVE client and any super fast elements of the virtual ship instrumentation running on client hardware (like the overview) run at full speed. There is no downside to the server or game play fairness if a player looks at the situation from scores of angles. It actually is a better simulation of direct neural input than the game normally provides.


I suppose I can understand if your code tangle currently requires slowing the whole client to slow movement of the virtual world objects like missiles, ships, drones and device cycling instrumentation (scanner, weapon reload etc). But frankly camera movement and frame rate and other purely UI elements should not be directly tied to virtual world objects especially movable real-time objects inside the EVE virtual world. That is bad for the future of EVE as both virtual technology and real life computer hardware evolves. It means a lot of your objects are not truly self contained if the pure UI objects and virtual game world objects use the same master clock.

There should be at least two master clocks -- one for virtual world objects and one or more master clocks for the UI which are driven by client hardware and user configuration considerations. There maybe a synchronization factor to make the two clocks mesh smoothly in passing data, but that factor should be dynamically recalculated as time dilation goes into effect.

Flamehaired Death
Doomheim
#210 - 2011-10-06 08:20:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Flamehaired Death
For fairness new ships coming into the grid should be put in a delay queue - stretch out that warping in effect and travel time.

If you do not -- ships that that should not have had time to travel to the battle (if the battle occurred at full speed) can totally reverse the balance of forces due to arriving during dilation. You could ambush an enemy with 3 times the ships in larger better quality fits but because the battle will take 15-20 minutes at high dilation...he might be able to call in huge numbers of ships from as far as 15 jumps away.

Basically the older the delay queue, the longer the delay for ships newly entering the queue. Roughly speaking the time in queue could computed by adding the dilation clock fraction every second to arrive at a cumulative total time since dilation began (thus 2 minutes of 50% dilation equals 1 minute hung in queue).

Yeah time in queue could get very boring especially for very huge battles. Time for the EVE mini-games. Actually there is only one reason you could not watch all the ongoing action and no way to prevent chat. An obvious cheat would be to have your best backup FCs arrive a bit late and they could conduct vocal ops from within the queue with temporary immunity from enemy fire. Sending target flagging via UI would be easy to block while in the delay queue though. The cheat effect is not much worse than a stealth FC.
Endeavour Starfleet
#211 - 2011-10-07 03:44:29 UTC
I saw the EN24 video of the test. In all fairness it shows the camera effect ALOT better than the dev video. So things look alot less "lagged"

Not the biggest deal in my opinion. At 10 percent time will be so slow anyway that anything you would NEED to do with the camera wont be affected in relation to normal time.
KanashiiKami
#212 - 2011-10-07 08:24:15 UTC  |  Edited by: KanashiiKami
i do not like the TIDI feature. if there is a TIDI feature it should not be full blown. it should only affect or slow down by 25% at max.

CCP SHOULD -->

1) reduce polygon count / improve GPU streamlining to improve video lag performance. and the way CCP have changed the way space looks, it doesnt look like space ... it too bright and you have too many useless cloud/debris artifacts in space that takes up GPU power. come on, even if we are not space geeks ... we see pictures of space before from star trek ... IT IS SPACE, dun try to picaso it with fluffy clouds.
2) improve network comms efficiency. you are prolly trying to send too much useless information in too many packets.
3) the ship graphics overlays are 1 of the many things that bottlenecks up the whole thing. obviously there is something very wrong with how the layers are being forced on the nurbs. simplicity would make things run faster. why would you want to spurt a red blob then ask the GPU to go over it 10000 times to make it look like a cloud ? its a disaster for the GPU. a lo res map with a few pass would do the effect even better.
4) TIDI should only be in force when too many players have too much latency differences when server is trying to sync actions across multiple platforms. and CCP should instead enforce a feature that allows delayed updates for said players with poor connections and therefore discourage poorly connected players from joining bigger fleets fights. a fleet fight is a fleet fight, if your PC/conn lags badly, u are ultimately killing ur own fun, there is the weakest link. then again, the eve game client has its own numerous problems in dealing with large clusters and GFX.

for example, you put on guns that animate. but in a battle. do we really look at it? guns on ships are EXPECTED, but it is a sadly grossly delayed feature which at this point only gives players a short lived YAY. it however ended up choking the GPU. and after 1 month, the F1-F8 icons seems like a pile of mud more than an actual 3D icon that you can really see properly WTH it was on it ( Mud?). cmon guys, wth is wrong with the creative direction? u want us to use a microscope to admire the guns while in battle? GUNs are meant to be obvious on pew pew ships, n the missile explosion ring is like the size of planets with a lousy ressed bitmap. geez i will fire who ever that approved this ( the CEO?).

so tell me again, is CCP trying to use TIDI (a mistake) to cover up more mistakes ???

come on guys.... do it right already .... or is the ceo under paying you? ( i can understand that)
you will not need TIDI, if you start to look deep into the foundation GFX issues and networks issues. WHY make GFX more complex by 100% when you do not see a 100% return on GFX visual improvement? you have to pay your engineers right to do it right CCP ... just do it already man ...

WUT ???

Endeavour Starfleet
#213 - 2011-10-07 10:49:43 UTC
Useless info? Have you honestly NOT been keeping up with the MANY dev blogs on improving network and packet efficency or are you just here to troll?

GPU stuff is completely different. If your GPU is melting turn YOUR settings down. Tidi is also going to massively reduce the issues caused by low GPU FPS.

Tidi evens the playing field. And helps reduce lagploitz in large battles. In fact it adds a completely new gameplay element at high Tidi as commanders will now have time to play 3D EVE chess with the other. Manuvering Squads. Issuing multi attack orders. And prepositioning craft in anticipation will Become FARRRRRRRRRR more important at high Tidi.

This changes the game. I support it.

Tho CCP I really suggest you redo that video. Or ask to borrow some of the player footage of Sisi tidi in action to better show this. In the videos it shows the camera delay effect to be FARRRR less prevelant and what looks to be forced lag in your video isn't there.

It looks downright beautiful in those videos.

I am also getting tired of reading the BS that people are saying "Making Lag a feature" Its only lag if it takes 30 seconds for your module to activate while others are activating instantly. Lag is an unbalanced relationship not balanced as this is. This will defeat most lagsploitz and allow some of the biggest battles in EVE history with results other than capital kills.

Question tho and sorry if it has been answered. Lets say a battle of 30 v 30 starts in a random system not reported for node reinforcement both sides bring more ships and tidi starts. Soon its 500 v 500. Is there plans in the future to potentially "pause" the node and redirect everything to a reenforced node so that say 1000 v 1000 can happen or bigger at max tidi?

The reason I ask is that with the time delay it does give both sides great time to move other forces into the area to engage. This is reality as you cant Tidi the entire cluster. This will guarantee large battles I just worry that such battles wont be planned ahead of time in a normal way and will have to take place on standard nodes. Resulting in 90% Tidi battles that go on all day or longer.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#214 - 2011-10-07 11:18:34 UTC
PROGRESS

People asked improvements about lag, talked about how this could be handled so large fleet engagements experience could be better, CCP is doing it and they're doing it the right way.

Props to you doing this job, props to CCP who's finally took the decision of doing the right thing about this matter.

Props to CSM work on this even if in some points I still disagree with you, what is right must be recognised has what is wrong.

Better Eve for bitvets, better Eve for newbs = good for "tha" game.
Endeavour Starfleet
#215 - 2011-10-07 14:19:47 UTC
This really does show that CCP is serious about fixing the issues that matter to us.

What is great is this is going to stack with all their other improvements to allow some truly huuuuge space battles if done right. This really changes the game.

Of course this also gives extra incentive to report planned POS battles for node reinforcement. Othewise a day of POS bashing might become a week! :P
Induc
Transport and ORE Mining
#216 - 2011-10-07 21:37:28 UTC
cool, now people can have even bigger fights
Tiger's Spirit
Perkone
Caldari State
#217 - 2011-10-08 23:08:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiger's Spirit
Induc wrote:
cool, now people can have even bigger fights


Dont forget 10 times longer POS,TCU,StarBase bashing when systems overloaded and time dilation tunrning on there.
Results ? No one go to capture any territory in 0.0, because every action will be too long without fight, because attackers or defenders will overloading systems at safespots for tactics.
Who want to shot a single TCU, 24 hours long because time dilation ???

Boring visions.
Endeavour Starfleet
#218 - 2011-10-09 03:50:21 UTC
That works both ways and the focus will be on defeating the bad guys so you don't have to Tidi the server so bad.

Once you defeat the enemy it will become tactics to spread your forces into other systems and leave an optimal force that can do the most DPS with the least Tidi.

And anything is better than what it is now. A large fleet fight means jumping into a black screen and waking up to a new clone. This will assure that fights actually take place and the amount of tactics needed in high tidi situations will make the game far better than the few disadvantages it brings.
Tiger's Spirit
Perkone
Caldari State
#219 - 2011-10-09 08:36:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiger's Spirit
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
That works both ways and the focus will be on defeating the bad guys so you don't have to Tidi the server so bad.

Once you defeat the enemy it will become tactics to spread your forces into other systems and leave an optimal force that can do the most DPS with the least Tidi.

And anything is better than what it is now. A large fleet fight means jumping into a black screen and waking up to a new clone. This will assure that fights actually take place and the amount of tactics needed in high tidi situations will make the game far better than the few disadvantages it brings.



You are wrong. Spread forces ? Like today ? Everyone hate lags, but what do you see there today ? Everyone go with blob and they create those lags. They go fewer there ? No, they bring more man, and generate more lag.

With Tidi wont changes this, moreover they will bring more mans to fight to single system because they would more times to bring defensive fleets there.
Tidi situantions will make to the game more bad situationsthan the few advantages what will bring.

Longer boring POS bashing, boring very long TCU shot, 3x24 hours long Outpost shot. More blob because defenders got more times to gathering fleet. Longer travel times because big fleets will slowing regions and horrible jump times at gates.

Blob makes lag thats need to fix.

Need changes like, decreasing alliance member numbers and their standing possibility. No more 3k number corps and alliances.

Need changes moon harvesting rules, like dispro or other moons shouldn't have infinite mineral, it would yield it, alliances would be obliged to changes regions and fight for new territories and moons.

Need changes the area maintenance prizes rules. Many big blob hold too much area and system, because those system prizes is ridicuolus low. Like this: 1 system mainaince cost 1x factor, and incraesing this factor (2x,3x,4x) when they wants to possess more systems.
This would be chance to hold 1-2 territory for small groups, but harder for huge captured systems for big entities (superblob alliances with over 3k members).

Need smaller groups, not need more superblobs and slow-mo fights, because thats create super lag and blackscreens.
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#220 - 2011-10-09 21:41:11 UTC  |  Edited by: GeeShizzle MacCloud
Tiger's Spirit wrote:


You are wrong. Spread forces ? Like today ? Everyone hate lags, but what do you see there today ? Everyone go with blob and they create those lags. They go fewer there ? No, they bring more man, and generate more lag.

With Tidi wont changes this, moreover they will bring more mans to fight to single system because they would more times to bring defensive fleets there.
Tidi situantions will make to the game more bad situationsthan the few advantages what will bring.

Longer boring POS bashing, boring very long TCU shot, 3x24 hours long Outpost shot. More blob because defenders got more times to gathering fleet. Longer travel times because big fleets will slowing regions and horrible jump times at gates.

Blob makes lag thats need to fix.

Need changes like, decreasing alliance member numbers and their standing possibility. No more 3k number corps and alliances.

Need changes moon harvesting rules, like dispro or other moons shouldn't have infinite mineral, it would yield it, alliances would be obliged to changes regions and fight for new territories and moons.

Need changes the area maintenance prizes rules. Many big blob hold too much area and system, because those system prizes is ridicuolus low. Like this: 1 system mainaince cost 1x factor, and incraesing this factor (2x,3x,4x) when they wants to possess more systems.
This would be chance to hold 1-2 territory for small groups, but harder for huge captured systems for big entities (superblob alliances with over 3k members).

Need smaller groups, not need more superblobs and slow-mo fights, because thats create super lag and blackscreens.


ohh wow... this sounds like a buthurt DRF or PL alt member! ohh cant take goons in their space cause they blob their systems cause they have a rediculous amount of people wanting to fight for their corner of eve.

newsflash genius, theres more than 1 way to kill an empire!


but back to serious spaceship tomfoolery, ill give u the numbers cause u obviously dont seem to understand how powerful TiDi is.

Currently Veritas has TiDi setup in a linear form because he's yet to see a fight that surpasses the upper limit he's set. Ill explain this now:

a typical node can host a 500-600 man battle with relatively no lag. reinforced and that goes to 800-900. at its current maximum level veritas has set a max limit of 10% time what that means is the normal node will reach the 10% time only at approx 2000. the reinforced node would reach 10% time with approx 3200 AND that would be happening with only very slight lag creeping inand NO DESYNCS, NO BLACK SCREENS.

so far the highest fleetfight in eves history was insanely laggy and had a bit under 3200 people in, it took HOURS just to load grid, it took HOURS to even fire your guns, let alone even know if you're doing damage! GOD help you if u wanted to change direction or lock a target, to even try and lock someone took HOURS more!

with TiDi, it may mean 10% time, but if it takes u 1 minute to lock a target, then OMG it may take u 10 minutes! not an hour and a half.


ohh and about the blobbing, its going to happen, you cannot stop people from participating and organising and teaming up against a common foe. Ive done it in big fleets killing only particular reds on grid and not others cause its been agreed upon to not fire on each other. no amount of caps on members, corp numbers, blue or light blue standings will change that.

u want a cap on the number of people in one place at one time, **** off back to wow where u obviously came from, stop crying about ur failures at playing a big boys game.