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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

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Andrea Roche
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2461 - 2012-06-23 15:35:16 UTC
i love this goon raging thread. Its most helerious for an alliance that is suppose to "collect much tears". My questions is when they say this, do they mean someone elses or theirs, cos this thread has so much of it that its turning into an ocean.
Tomytronic
Perkone
Caldari State
#2462 - 2012-06-23 15:36:10 UTC
Andrea Roche wrote:
i love this goon raging thread. Its most helerious for an alliance that is suppose to "collect much tears". My questions is when they say this, do they mean someone elses or theirs, cos this thread has so much of it that its turning into an ocean.

Are you going to apologise?
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#2463 - 2012-06-23 15:36:43 UTC
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:
I'm not sure you can design a flawed system and expect goons not to game it.



fixed that

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#2464 - 2012-06-23 15:37:11 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:

How long does it take for that price to change and how long does it stay that way?

The next price update, and it will stay that way basically forever because there are no legitimate transactions to drown out the spoofed ones.

The problem is that with items with no volume, you cannot eliminate outliers automatically because the real prices are the outliers, not the spoofed ones.

edit: or it will drop out when the spoofed transactions leave the 90 day window. However you can trivially do some more to keep the price at normal.


That was the only reason timing was mentioned. The amount of time it takes to calculate means that the manipulated prices stick around a lot longer. I'm not going to pretend to be a financial wizard or anything but in looking at the issue that is something we have to consider.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
RAP ACTION HERO
#2465 - 2012-06-23 15:37:12 UTC
one day goons are going to cure cancer

vitoc erryday
Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#2466 - 2012-06-23 15:37:20 UTC
Tomytronic wrote:
Andrea Roche wrote:
i love this goon raging thread. Its most helerious for an alliance that is suppose to "collect much tears". My questions is when they say this, do they mean someone elses or theirs, cos this thread has so much of it that its turning into an ocean.

Are you going to apologise?


why should he? that was a legitimate use of forum mechanics
Kazanir
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2467 - 2012-06-23 15:37:43 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Kazanir wrote:
This is the key point. This doesn't depend on timing -- it doesn't matter when CCP updates their internal price index, because the average market price of this item is going to remain around 500M ISK. The market won't bring it back down because the market has no use for it. What we are looking at here is not a bug or a programming issue or an abuse of a timing problem.

It is a design flaw.

Using an average market index is a design flaw because it can be manipulated by players in the case of items that have no market volume. And I'm pretty sure that all of the players of EVE see a large difference between taking advantage of a design flaw and exploiting a programming bug (like the Ferrogel dupe.)


How long does it take for that price to change and how long does it stay that way?


It takes as long as CCP wants it to take. In this case I understand that your boys settled on automatic 1/week index updates referring to a 3-month market average. But it doesn't matter when CCP chooses to update the market price -- as soon as they do, the item is available for abuse.

Furthermore, the market index STAYS THAT WAY just as long as the manipulator in question WANTS it to stay that way, because the item in question has no normal market volume to correct said index. This is the core of what makes this possible.

It isn't a timing issue, it is an issue with using market price indices in a market where not every item has appropriate sales velocity.

CCP Sreegs wrote:
Nobody has been penalized


The problem is that you guys unevenly nuked a bunch of assets (including some that weren't connected) and didn't open any channels of communication to the Faction Five before or after you did so. The first official communication was your post about it being a stopgap measure, nearly 24 hours after the fact.

You can see where that might look bad, and make the players involved (who freely shared all of their information with you) a little bit upset.
Tomytronic
Perkone
Caldari State
#2468 - 2012-06-23 15:38:19 UTC
RAP ACTION HERO wrote:
one day goons are going to cure cancer

And we'll be blamed for putting the pharmaceutical companies out of business.
Paint
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2469 - 2012-06-23 15:38:42 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Maggie Maggie wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Comparing removing the manipulated assets of a small number of people to a complete redesign of the game may just win the prize.


Hear me out. While I am a goon and of course I do feel that a member of my tribe is under attack, I'm speaking as a player.

EVE has always been an open sandbox where players are allowed and encouraged to do things that materially affect the game. That is the one thing that sets EVE apart from every other MMO. There are other spaceship games. There are other games with a functioning market. There are other games where clever players do better than dumb people.

EVE has always been an open sandbox. If a player is afraid to experiment and push the game in new directions for fear that, should they win too big, they will lose everything, then that is not an open sandbox.

EVE has always been an open sandbox. If that is no longer the case, that constitues a complete redesign. Please don't take that first step. I like the game how it is.


When do we get to the part where we stop pretending that a gap in the timing of value calculation (programming) wasn't what was being taken advantage of here? This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code.


So when are you going to roll back all the wealth from t2 bpo then?
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#2470 - 2012-06-23 15:38:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


2. Maybe, just maybe, you guys at CCP will start listening to your player base before rolling out changes.


maybe, just maybe listening to the rest of the playerbase OVER the goons
not the other way around

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Dancing Tree
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2471 - 2012-06-23 15:38:54 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:

You weren't just leveraging arbitrage because the value you were manipulating was fairly abritrary. This would not be acceptable in any financial system at all. I know ya'll are having fun pretending this is just A OK but I'm telling you it's not.


That things which would never be acceptable in real world financial systems are allowed in EVE is a central and fundamental positive which draws people to this game. The sandbox is an unregulated market that has winners and losers. Some people make stupid mistakes in this game; goons profit off that stupidity. This is only special in terms of scale, which is a comment on the scale of the stupid mistake that was taken advantage of.
Istyn
Freight Club
#2472 - 2012-06-23 15:38:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Istyn
Tomytronic wrote:
RAP ACTION HERO wrote:
one day goons are going to cure cancer

And we'll be blamed for putting the pharmaceutical companies out of business.


Stealing our jerbs.

Dancing Tree wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:

You weren't just leveraging arbitrage because the value you were manipulating was fairly abritrary. This would not be acceptable in any financial system at all. I know ya'll are having fun pretending this is just A OK but I'm telling you it's not.


That things which would never be acceptable in real world financial systems are allowed in EVE is a central and fundamental positive which draws people to this game. The sandbox is an unregulated market that has winners and losers. Some people make stupid mistakes in this game; goons profit off that stupidity. This is only special in terms of scale, which is a comment on the scale of the stupid mistake that was taken advantage of.


Still want to know if Sreegs has ever read market discussion.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#2473 - 2012-06-23 15:39:26 UTC
Tomytronic wrote:
Andrea Roche wrote:
i love this goon raging thread. Its most helerious for an alliance that is suppose to "collect much tears". My questions is when they say this, do they mean someone elses or theirs, cos this thread has so much of it that its turning into an ocean.

Are you going to apologise?



Dodo: I say, you'll never get dry that way.
Alice: Get dry?
Dodo: Have to run with the others. First rule of a caucus race, you know. ChaCha!
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2474 - 2012-06-23 15:39:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Weaselior
CCP Sreegs wrote:

That was the only reason timing was mentioned. The amount of time it takes to calculate means that the manipulated prices stick around a lot longer. I'm not going to pretend to be a financial wizard or anything but in looking at the issue that is something we have to consider.

Well, they stick around a lot longer without you needing to re-spoof the price. But if I want to abuse the z0r Kazanir mentioned, it's not hard to take some time out of my busy schedule of blowing up scads of them to sell another 1000 to myself at hideously inflated prices. I mean I'm blowing them up all day, I can easily keep the transactions going to keep the price inflated.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Andrea Roche
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2475 - 2012-06-23 15:39:46 UTC
Tomytronic wrote:
Andrea Roche wrote:
i love this goon raging thread. Its most helerious for an alliance that is suppose to "collect much tears". My questions is when they say this, do they mean someone elses or theirs, cos this thread has so much of it that its turning into an ocean.

Are you going to apologise?


apologise for what? Its you goons thats crying not us.
Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#2476 - 2012-06-23 15:39:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Pr1ncess Alia
Kazanir wrote:


CCP Sreegs wrote:
Nobody has been penalized


The problem is that you guys unevenly nuked a bunch of assets (including some that weren't connected) and didn't open any channels of communication to the Faction Five before or after you did so. The first official communication was your post about it being a stopgap measure, nearly 24 hours after the fact.

You can see where that might look bad, and make the players involved (who freely shared all of their information with you) a little bit upset.


but don't forget, it's all actually their virtual stuff on their servers.

stuff that goons decided to screw with for the lulz
(edit: i'm sorry, to screw with for the betterment of mankind. the trillions of stuff in their assets window was just... well lets not worry about that right?)

it wouldn't be uncalled for for them to freeze every account related to this until they figured out the best way to reverse the snafu your buddies caused

playing the victim just doesn't work for you, though it's delicious to watch
Phoenixx
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2477 - 2012-06-23 15:39:52 UTC
Mechaet wrote:
Phoenixx wrote:
Enaris Kerle wrote:
Phoenixx wrote:
Anyway, it's entertaining, and never affected me. But' it is very obvious that CCP needs to penalize those who exploited a game design flaw. You can't exploit the flaw and then brag about it - knowing very well that it would probably not fly - and then claim good faith after CCP fixes it.

counterpoint: insurance fraud


There's a difference between game design flaw manipulation to gain a fair profit of ISK and this manipulation to accumulate a far greater value. Someone earlier from Goonswarm said the value of the amount of items gained exceeded the value of the entirety of titans in the game.

That is a huge difference.

Why does scale matter? If it's within game mechanics, it's within game mechanics. Scale has no relevance on "legality".


I never said the exploitation of the insurance was "legal." But you have to be realistic. CCP doesn't have to resources to go after every single person that might have exploited the insurance flaw. In that situation, scale does matter.

When Goonswarm came on the forums and bragged non-stop about something they clearly knew was exploitation of a bad design flaw and then admitted that it was worth as much as I mentioned above, CCP will and should penalize/fix.

This isn't the best comparison, but I'm lazy to think of another.:

Cops aren't going to spend the resources to go after a kid who stole some candy from a store. But they sure as hell are going to go after a group of people who have robbed multiple banks and then bragged about it.
Elysium Foxx
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2478 - 2012-06-23 15:40:17 UTC
oh hahaha, look at all the goon tears

Priceless, maybe you should put all those priceless tears in one of your own freighters and blow it up in Yulai.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#2479 - 2012-06-23 15:40:28 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Maggie Maggie wrote:
And design errors are fair game.



My dear maggie: this is CCP's game. They tell us what's fair game, not the other way around.


Or not anymore apparently

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Ravcharas
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#2480 - 2012-06-23 15:40:29 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Ravcharas wrote:
That does not mean that whatever they decide to do is right, however.



Rav, this is EvE Online. Right and wrong are something that happens to other games, as Mittens himself once said.

Sure. I agree. I'm just saying...