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Inferno: The Endless ISK Fountian Exposed
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DeliaPrescot
Balintol
#21 - 2012-06-22 08:40:00 UTC
I'm pretty sure when i made that predictions the stats weren't published but even if, the prices of high end minerals plummet, less incentive to mine at all in 0.0. Anyway the interesting part are the highsec minerals, lets see the stats in 2 months and if the permanent Hulkageddon will have a lasting effect on minerals in contrast to ice.
Dave stark
#22 - 2012-06-22 08:56:05 UTC
trit pye and mex seem to be on the rise, http://ore.cerlestes.de/index.html#site:trend
yet every thing else is in decline.
volhar
V Enterprises
#23 - 2012-06-22 14:00:38 UTC
Pyrox is not far from being the top ore in all of eve. That's pretty amusing
OllieNorth
Recidivists Incorporated
#24 - 2012-06-22 22:07:07 UTC
Well, I for one am impressed. More entertainment from the friendly neighborhood Goons. I enjoy the interesting ways you guys come up with to pull one over.
Ashina Sito
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2012-06-23 08:16:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Ashina Sito
corestwo wrote:

Have you read the GD thread? Contrary to our expectations, the vast majority of posters are congratulating us and whatnot, there's very few tears & tinfoil posts. I mean hell, we even had Jade Constantine congratulate us, of all people. The overall response is very positive - I'd almost expect CCP to see a non-goon backlash if they neg-walleted us or something.

Regarding ballsy, only four or five of us were involved, so its not like we were gambling alliance money and assets on this. Strictly a private venture. And speaking to high ends specifically, I blew up my zydrine for what was the equivalent of selling it for something like 2k per unit. Pretty much a no-brainer, really.


I suspect that CCP will do their best to neutralize what happened.

The plan had 2 major flaws.

Too big. Abused the situation to the point where CCP has to do something. The only something they can do is to try and reverse what happened.

The second problem is that there was in fact an exploit involved. LP payouts for items not destroyed. Since the action included this, and the additional LP earned increased the ability to continue the project, most if not all of the ISK/assets become tainted.

There really is a third issue as well....

Don't spit in the face of the person who has all the power.

The GD post has all of the topical vitriol if a normal Goon post. Problem is that it is that a lot of it is directed towards CCP, the people who's game you play, the people who would be making the decisions as to whether what was done was a problem, the people who would decide what would be done if it needed to be dealt with.

Next time I would suggest sticking with stealing candy from a baby, not from the policeman.
qDoctor Strangelove
Doomheim
#26 - 2012-06-23 10:03:13 UTC
Ashina Sito wrote:
corestwo wrote:

Have you read the GD thread? Contrary to our expectations, the vast majority of posters are congratulating us and whatnot, there's very few tears & tinfoil posts. I mean hell, we even had Jade Constantine congratulate us, of all people. The overall response is very positive - I'd almost expect CCP to see a non-goon backlash if they neg-walleted us or something.

Regarding ballsy, only four or five of us were involved, so its not like we were gambling alliance money and assets on this. Strictly a private venture. And speaking to high ends specifically, I blew up my zydrine for what was the equivalent of selling it for something like 2k per unit. Pretty much a no-brainer, really.


I suspect that CCP will do their best to neutralize what happened.

The plan had 2 major flaws.

Too big. Abused the situation to the point where CCP has to do something. The only something they can do is to try and reverse what happened.

The second problem is that there was in fact an exploit involved. LP payouts for items not destroyed. Since the action included this, and the additional LP earned increased the ability to continue the project, most if not all of the ISK/assets become tainted.

There really is a third issue as well....

Don't spit in the face of the person who has all the power.

The GD post has all of the topical vitriol if a normal Goon post. Problem is that it is that a lot of it is directed towards CCP, the people who's game you play, the people who would be making the decisions as to whether what was done was a problem, the people who would decide what would be done if it needed to be dealt with.

Next time I would suggest sticking with stealing candy from a baby, not from the policeman.


Maybee CCP should have listened before going live with a flawed mechanic?
clixor
Celluloid Gurus
#27 - 2012-06-23 10:18:20 UTC
I had the feeling something was up as i figured it would take a while before the GENERAL FW crowd would convert to cores. In fact, i still believe that the natural preference for FW people to convert will be other items as likely few will bother to do the math.

So, when in remote markets all the buy orders were annihilated, i but largish buy orders at ridiculous low prices (at least, i hope lowish). and guess what, they still were filling by the same persons.

I think it was very naive from CCP to, after all these years, not anticipate this mechanic would be abused. In this sense i think the responsibility is with CCP and not with the people working the system. So, yeah, i think they should've kept their stuffs.

corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#28 - 2012-06-23 19:24:31 UTC  |  Edited by: corestwo
Ashina Sito wrote:
The GD post has all of the topical vitriol if a normal Goon post. Problem is that it is that a lot of it is directed towards CCP, the people who's game you play, the people who would be making the decisions as to whether what was done was a problem, the people who would decide what would be done if it needed to be dealt with.

The GD OP is very considerate to CCP, especially if you think about what it could have been. There's no "haha CCP is so ****ing stupid, look what they let us do" and so on.

And regarding your "too big" thing, insurance fraud could easily have wound up this big. Pax Amarria could have wound up this big (the only reason it didn't was the time between public announcement of it and CCP patch of it was literally one day). PI, all told, probably DID make people as much if not more money. All three were unintended consequences of CCP's mechanics, just like this was.

clixor wrote:
I think it was very naive from CCP to, after all these years, not anticipate this mechanic would be abused. In this sense i think the responsibility is with CCP and not with the people working the system. So, yeah, i think they should've kept their stuffs.


Especially when multiple people on multiple occasions told them that it would happen. Big smile

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Ashina Sito
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2012-06-23 20:08:01 UTC
corestwo wrote:
Ashina Sito wrote:
The GD post has all of the topical vitriol if a normal Goon post. Problem is that it is that a lot of it is directed towards CCP, the people who's game you play, the people who would be making the decisions as to whether what was done was a problem, the people who would decide what would be done if it needed to be dealt with.

The GD OP is very considerate to CCP, especially if you think about what it could have been. There's no "haha CCP is so ****ing stupid, look what they let us do" and so on.

And regarding your "too big" thing, insurance fraud could easily have wound up this big. Pax Amarria could have wound up this big (the only reason it didn't was the time between public announcement of it and CCP patch of it was literally one day). PI, all told, probably DID make people as much if not more money. All three were unintended consequences of CCP's mechanics, just like this was.




I reread the OP on the GD forum and you are correct. There was less attitude thrown at CCP then I remembered. It was all the rest of the aloof smugness and attitude towards everyone else that tainted my view.

As to the other issues you brought up.

- Insurance Fraud was a wide spread issue. (I did some myself) It was not confined to a small number of individuals. It was done over a long period when the market prices allowed it to do so.

- Pax Amarria was the same, fundamentally the price of nox fell to the point where Pax became the floor, just like shuttles and Trit, it's just that the prices on the market were higher for Nox.

- PI launch was a disaster. I thought CCP was going to do something about it so did not get involved with that one.

In each of these situations, there was no bug. LP for non-destroyed items was a bug. The resulting increase in LP and the ability to repeatedly reuse loot drops to push up the LP generation is where CCP has a very safe place to tag this as an exploit.

The GD post clearly states that the bug was taken full advantage of. Even though the infinite Loop LP generation was not intended in Theory you could claim it was just game mechanics at work. With the bug providing a multiplier effect and the use of it makes the whole process an exploit that CCP would deal with.

Additionally there was no way to create assets out of thin air in any of those issues listed above. Someone had to mine the mins and build the ships to blow up. NPC sell orders have a fixed number to sell and then need to be refreshed for Pax, same for PI. The Infinite Loop LP Was clearly broken game mechanics.

On another note, I have been surprised that no on else has mentioned that this whole thing was forecast within minutes of CCP posting the FW changes blog. It was easy to see that the system could potentially be beat if you could manipulate the market. Personally I would not have even tried.... because I knew that it would be considered a violation by CCP.

In the end, it is CCP's game. They set the rules. What happened was not considered acceptable by CCP. Something would be done. Next time don't go so far and maybe CCP will let you keep the illicit gains.
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#30 - 2012-06-23 22:10:32 UTC
Ashina Sito wrote:

The GD post clearly states that the bug was taken full advantage of. Even though the infinite Loop LP generation was not intended in Theory you could claim it was just game mechanics at work. With the bug providing a multiplier effect and the use of it makes the whole process an exploit that CCP would deal with.

The fact that the OP calls it a bug (specifically, the fact that cargo gave LP) is pretty bad writing on his part - it probably wasn't. Nothing in the devblog or patch notes give any indication that it would have worked any differently than that, so perhaps CCP merely realized that they were rewarding players twice for kills, once with LP and then again with loot from the kill?

Ashina Sito wrote:
Additionally there was no way to create assets out of thin air in any of those issues listed above. Someone had to mine the mins and build the ships to blow up. NPC sell orders have a fixed number to sell and then need to be refreshed for Pax, same for PI. The Infinite Loop LP Was clearly broken game mechanics.

I'd call insurance payouts "creating something out of thin air." And the NPC orders did not have a fixed number to sell - if you created a buy order for them at the sell order price, it would sell you as many as you wanted. I personally bought 40 million units of them at once this way.

Ashina Sito wrote:
On another note, I have been surprised that no on else has mentioned that this whole thing was forecast within minutes of CCP posting the FW changes blog. It was easy to see that the system could potentially be beat if you could manipulate the market. Personally I would not have even tried.... because I knew that it would be considered a violation by CCP.

Myself and many other players disagree with you that it's a violation of the rules and are concerned about the precedent that it sets for the notional sandbox should CCP deem it such.

Ashina Sito wrote:
In the end, it is CCP's game. They set the rules. What happened was not considered acceptable by CCP. Something would be done. Next time don't go so far and maybe CCP will let you keep the illicit gains.

To be fair, at this point apparently they've merely taken the assets while they investigate further because they don't want us to launder them or something...they simply didn't tell us that that's why they took anything until twelve hours after they took it. Oops. I find this amusing, considering that I had specifically pulled down all of my sell orders so as to avoid the impression that I was attempting to do just that. Nonetheless, if an investigation is ongoing (which it is), it is premature to say that CCP deemed it unacceptable.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#31 - 2012-06-25 06:55:29 UTC
allot of the information makes sense, if looked at from an abstract point of view, most of it is a total waste of letters.

buthurt goon PL alts buthurt again.
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