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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

First post First post First post
Author
InternetSpaceship
Perkone
Caldari State
#2021 - 2012-06-23 03:50:18 UTC
Talon SilverHawk wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
Talon SilverHawk wrote:
Goons took credit at the beginning of the thread now your saying your not , inconsistent ?

Tal


Let me try to say it more bluntly.

CCP has the logs and the data. They have what they need to perform an investigation. Any action they may take will be taken against those who were involved. They won't punish GSF as a whole for their actions, no matter how many Goonswarm members applaud it, simply because the people involved did this entirely on their own.

Simple enough?



So the answer is yes distancing yourselves now Twisted

Tal



I don't understand what it is you think we need to distance ourselves from. The vast majority of us actually had no hand in this. That's not me trying to protect myself from the consequences of these actions, because I had no part in them. That is simply a fact. Yes, I stand behind those who did, but the reason I am not claiming that I was a direct part of this is because I was actually not a direct part in it. I don't know what it is you want me to say, but that is a fact.

Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.

If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.  If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you.

Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#2022 - 2012-06-23 03:52:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
Holy crap I posted here yesterday it was at 42 pages

InternetSpaceship wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
Well its not the first time that the "eve is a sandbox" theme gets thrown by the wayside when game mechanics are used in an apparently unexpected way.

It hasn't changed status from being a sandbox, the rules are just being changed.
Jade Constantine wrote:
The recent plan to near completely nerf defensive allies from the Inferno wardec system is a pretty good example of ("fairness for the attacker" trumping the sandbox of emergent gameplay and unexpected consequences) and its not the first time thats happened in the realm of hisec wardecs either.

Yes, let's completely gloss over the fact that the reason for the change was the fact that everybody more or less dogpiled into every wardec which was opened up to the public, where some corps had 50-70 active wardecs.


I kinda liked that. Given long enough, everyone in highsec would eventually be wardecced to everyone, and it would effectively be nullsec.

So yeah, roll back the wardec nerfs, ccp.



This actually. Get rid of CONCORD. Ive said it a while now. Theyre broken and if we could shoot first, thered be people you could hire to defend you in high sec (you know, MERCENARIES). But heep the sec stuff so we cant get 100+ supercap gang banged

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Xython
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2023 - 2012-06-23 03:53:28 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Tyrozan
Jade Constantine wrote:

Protip Buying things with legally earned LP from the loyalty point store is not "exploiting."


This just in: Jade Constantine: ------Edit----- "not exploiting."

Post edited.
Racial comments not allowed.


ISD Tyrozan
Ensign
Community Communications Liaisons
Interstellar Services Department
Thomas Shaefer
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2024 - 2012-06-23 03:53:37 UTC
Well this is a thing.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#2025 - 2012-06-23 03:54:56 UTC
Paint wrote:

Well I am a little sad that you are quitting next week you see. I mean, someone as important and e-famous as you obviously has a big future left in this game. Perhaps you could single handedly save another alliance or two.


Mm... this *is* a tasty burger...

There's not much point in it. I figure that EvE is reaching a tipping point, and goons are looking to push it over the side. A few more jobs like this, and new subs will probably dry up entirely.

Me, I'm just gonna walk the web. You know, like Caine in Kung Fu?
Xython
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2026 - 2012-06-23 03:55:42 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
There's not much point in it. I figure that EvE is reaching a tipping point, and goons are looking to push it over the side. A few more jobs like this, and new subs will probably dry up entirely.


Not to burst your little bubble, but subscriptions are actually going up for the first time in a long while. ;)
RougeOperator
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2027 - 2012-06-23 03:55:47 UTC
Xython wrote:
RougeOperator wrote:
I said something like this was possible when they listed the changes that were coming.

I was told no one would want to do the work to pull it off.

Seems I new better.

This is all CCPs fault, this was a super obvious thing. It was one of the reasons i was against the FW changes that and station lockout. Most of the stuff wrong that is happening in FW was super obvious and long term bad ideas.

There is no way to fix this without being unfair about it now.

I give goons props for pulling off what I suggested to others ages ago. I dont think they should be punished for this. CCP will have to give them something in fair exchange for what they pulled off.

maybe trillions is the going price for the right to name a system or two.



Holy crap, I'm actually agreeing with one of your posts. +1.



It happens more oft then not. I can come of as harsh but ultimately im fair and interested in justice.

And the fact i did mention this was a possibility ages ago in terms of related game time means It was just something waiting to happen.

I haven't been around much cause i got hit by a car and had other things to take care of. But to come back and see that someone pulled off something i said was possible with the way they are setting up FW and that it happened just how i said it would was a nice present.

**Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence" **

Xutech
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2028 - 2012-06-23 03:56:01 UTC
Quote:

By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.


Oh look, it's the sound of Darius Johnson wringing his hands over whether to screw goons or not. I bet he was up all night wrestling with the moral dilemma.

Would you like a guide to how not to screw over your old friends?

1. Don't use words to describe the situation that clearly show bias toward one interpretation of events.

2. Clearly show the way in which you have arrived at your decision.

3. Explain how you will ensure this kind of thing does not occur again and how players can help to prevent such a thing.

4. Be clear and fair if you remove assets from the people involved and do not take more than you should. Do not treat the involved parties as criminals.

5. Treat the entire event like some kind of hilarious and clever prank. Post with good humor. Contact the media and speak about the involved parties as clever players and turn the entire event into positive advertising.

6. If you're fair, unbiased and reasonable even the people you're taking isk away from will probably be okay with it. They certainly seemed like they were expecting to be caught and that the damage would be repaired.
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#2029 - 2012-06-23 03:56:40 UTC
Xython wrote:
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Gul'gotha Derv'ash wrote:

Burn Jita did just about **** all to the markets, and from my understanding, didn't really "inflict mass suffering" on anyone other than yourselves. People knew it was happening so they avoided the system for the most part. You just wasted a large portion of time because you threw a temper tantrum over Mittani getting a slap on the wrist for trying to coax everyone to get a guy to kill himself.


Yeah, they killed fifty freighters over a period of several days. I noticed that quite a few of them stopped posting when I pointed out that was a tiny fraction of Jita's usual daily traffic, and most people just went around.


That's funny, we also noticed the "LOL GEWNS" guys shutting up pretty damned quick when CCP posted a devblog about it stating that trading in Jita was down what, 50% that weekend? Not bad for a test run. Now if only we had, say, 5 trillion ISK laying around for a nice month long go at it... Right around the time the wardec changes were messed with again making it hard to wardec us and screw with our fun...


If you did that I might be able to convince CCP soundwave to revert the wardec changes to 1.0 (or better yet) actually produce a decent compromise on the 1.1 fix that didn't massively disadvantage smaller alliances fighting much larger aggressors with the aid of hisec allies.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom

Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2030 - 2012-06-23 03:58:11 UTC
RougeOperator wrote:
maybe trillions is the going price for the right to name a system or two.


Goonamake

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration

Doctor Benway Kado
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2031 - 2012-06-23 03:58:41 UTC
People think we're distancing ourselves now? Did they miss the whole "super exclusive group of trillionaire market manipulators" thing? Eight people were in the know, and five of them did it. If it had been public policy, I can assure you, we would have obliterated the profits of all mission runners and earned a lot more than 5 trillion.
InternetSpaceship
Perkone
Caldari State
#2032 - 2012-06-23 03:58:58 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
Xython wrote:
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Gul'gotha Derv'ash wrote:

Burn Jita did just about **** all to the markets, and from my understanding, didn't really "inflict mass suffering" on anyone other than yourselves. People knew it was happening so they avoided the system for the most part. You just wasted a large portion of time because you threw a temper tantrum over Mittani getting a slap on the wrist for trying to coax everyone to get a guy to kill himself.


Yeah, they killed fifty freighters over a period of several days. I noticed that quite a few of them stopped posting when I pointed out that was a tiny fraction of Jita's usual daily traffic, and most people just went around.


That's funny, we also noticed the "LOL GEWNS" guys shutting up pretty damned quick when CCP posted a devblog about it stating that trading in Jita was down what, 50% that weekend? Not bad for a test run. Now if only we had, say, 5 trillion ISK laying around for a nice month long go at it... Right around the time the wardec changes were messed with again making it hard to wardec us and screw with our fun...


If you did that I might be able to convince CCP soundwave to revert the wardec changes to 1.0 (or better yet) actually produce a decent compromise on the 1.1 fix that didn't massively disadvantage smaller alliances fighting much larger aggressors with the aid of hisec allies.


You do that. I'd love nothing more than to see highsec turn into a wardecced wasteland where everyone is blowing everyone else up because their corp has 50+ wardecs. It sure wouldn't change anything in null, so go nuts with it.

Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.

If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.  If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you.

Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#2033 - 2012-06-23 03:59:14 UTC
Xython wrote:

Not to burst your little bubble, but subscriptions are actually going up for the first time in a long while. ;)


What we're seeing is a small percentage of players leaving TOR coming back to EvE rather than heading over to WoT. Since PvP hasn't improved since they left, how long till they leave again?
Xython
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2034 - 2012-06-23 04:02:17 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
Xython wrote:
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Gul'gotha Derv'ash wrote:

Burn Jita did just about **** all to the markets, and from my understanding, didn't really "inflict mass suffering" on anyone other than yourselves. People knew it was happening so they avoided the system for the most part. You just wasted a large portion of time because you threw a temper tantrum over Mittani getting a slap on the wrist for trying to coax everyone to get a guy to kill himself.


Yeah, they killed fifty freighters over a period of several days. I noticed that quite a few of them stopped posting when I pointed out that was a tiny fraction of Jita's usual daily traffic, and most people just went around.


That's funny, we also noticed the "LOL GEWNS" guys shutting up pretty damned quick when CCP posted a devblog about it stating that trading in Jita was down what, 50% that weekend? Not bad for a test run. Now if only we had, say, 5 trillion ISK laying around for a nice month long go at it... Right around the time the wardec changes were messed with again making it hard to wardec us and screw with our fun...


If you did that I might be able to convince CCP soundwave to revert the wardec changes to 1.0 (or better yet) actually produce a decent compromise on the 1.1 fix that didn't massively disadvantage smaller alliances fighting much larger aggressors with the aid of hisec allies.


You bragged about exploiting the wardec changes. You knew they were going to be fixed, including a "get out of responsibility free" card in your post -- claiming if they were fixed, it was cause supposedly cried to CCP. They were fixed. You claimed we cried to CCP. Evidence that we actually were looking forward to the foreverwar was ignored in lieu of the lie pubbies tell themselves so they can sleep at night.

Let it go. The game isn't fair in such a way that a 100 man alliance can fight off a 7000 man alliance. Nor is it designed to be unbalanced in such a way. And trying to bleat and moan until CCP somehow makes it "fair" like that is never going to happen, because that's stupid on a level that almost matches the stupidity of people who run 23 ice miner bot accounts at the same time.

If you want to fight Goonswarm like that, make your own alliance. Come visit VFK with 254 of your closest friends. We'll leave the light on for you.
Xython
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2035 - 2012-06-23 04:02:59 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Xython wrote:

Not to burst your little bubble, but subscriptions are actually going up for the first time in a long while. ;)


*Fingers in Ears* "La La La, Evidence that does not fit my worldview doesn't count!!!! La La la!!"

Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#2036 - 2012-06-23 04:03:26 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Paint wrote:

Well I am a little sad that you are quitting next week you see. I mean, someone as important and e-famous as you obviously has a big future left in this game. Perhaps you could single handedly save another alliance or two.


Mm... this *is* a tasty burger...

There's not much point in it. I figure that EvE is reaching a tipping point, and goons are looking to push it over the side. A few more jobs like this, and new subs will probably dry up entirely.

Me, I'm just gonna walk the web. You know, like Caine in Kung Fu?


Well as long as the subs here dont start drying up too; who cares? EVE does well on 300k subs

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Paint
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2037 - 2012-06-23 04:05:38 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Paint wrote:

Well I am a little sad that you are quitting next week you see. I mean, someone as important and e-famous as you obviously has a big future left in this game. Perhaps you could single handedly save another alliance or two.


Mm... this *is* a tasty burger...

There's not much point in it. I figure that EvE is reaching a tipping point, and goons are looking to push it over the side. A few more jobs like this, and new subs will probably dry up entirely.

Me, I'm just gonna walk the web. You know, like Caine in Kung Fu?



But with Big boobs. You are an amazing person, perhaps you should reconsider. I am sure that if Billy Merc knew of your amazing super powers, you and he could headshot us.
RougeOperator
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2038 - 2012-06-23 04:06:21 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
RougeOperator wrote:
maybe trillions is the going price for the right to name a system or two.


Goonamake



Id say that would be the only fair way for CCP to handle this problem of their own making with FW mechanics that were not thoroughly tested.

Which Really did roll out very fast from the FanFest "we have these ideas" to just a way to short time later "they ideas are done". Showing a lack of input from players and time for players to look at things to say, hey there might be a problem here. They had this stuff well under way long before FanFest Imo. So all their own making.

Here is a tip to CCP. IF ITS POSSIBLE SOMEONE WILL TRY TO PULL IT OFF. There is no such thing as too hard for a bunch of bored internet space pod pilots.

So when someone says, hey this might happen if X. you should take it seriously next time.

You really need to listen to player feedback more carefully. Many times you end up in these situations cause you dont.

So 900t to be able to name a system and its planets.



**Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence" **

Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2039 - 2012-06-23 04:08:14 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:


If you did that I might be able to convince CCP soundwave to revert the wardec changes to 1.0 (or better yet) actually produce a decent compromise on the 1.1 fix that didn't massively disadvantage smaller alliances fighting much larger aggressors with the aid of hisec allies.


Well, if you wouldn't "hire" any three person corp, with people barely able to press F1, onto your little wardec, you might find that actually hiring competent mercs might prove useful.

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin

Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#2040 - 2012-06-23 04:15:25 UTC
Paint wrote:
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Paint wrote:

Well I am a little sad that you are quitting next week you see. I mean, someone as important and e-famous as you obviously has a big future left in this game. Perhaps you could single handedly save another alliance or two.


Mm... this *is* a tasty burger...

There's not much point in it. I figure that EvE is reaching a tipping point, and goons are looking to push it over the side. A few more jobs like this, and new subs will probably dry up entirely.

Me, I'm just gonna walk the web. You know, like Caine in Kung Fu?



But with Big boobs. You are an amazing person, perhaps you should reconsider. I am sure that if Billy Merc knew of your amazing super powers, you and he could headshot us.


WTF a Goon saying nice things???

*head explode*

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.