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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

First post First post First post
Author
Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#1501 - 2012-06-22 19:57:35 UTC
Aryth wrote:
CCP is currently in the process of yanking tons of stuff from our accounts. Far beyond what was profited from. The sandbox indeed is not quite as sandboxy as we thought.


Well no one said you were supposed to pee in the sand. You just took that upon yourselves.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1502 - 2012-06-22 19:58:10 UTC
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
Did I mention insurance fraud? Or Pax Amarria? I do not believe that I did. All I said was that anyone caught knowingly abusing a flaw in the system can, and will, have that profit removed. Whether that is by putting wallets in the negative, or by removing items, such as in this case.

Insurance fraud and pax amarria refinery was also "game mechanics" which could be (and was) used to create resources out of thin air.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#1503 - 2012-06-22 19:58:17 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:

Care to enumerate the damages, Mr. Carreon?


Oh how thoroughly droll, I too am a fan of The Oatmeal. I have said my piece, the actions I mentioned have precedence in the game and CCP are rather outspoken when it comes to systemic abuse of game mechanics.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.

Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#1504 - 2012-06-22 20:00:26 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:

So why should this be treated any differently from when people were insurance frauding like mad for isk, and actively adding isk to the economy? Why should this be treated any differently from when Pax Amarria was refinable into nocx? Why should this be treated any differently from when tracking titans were used to take over tech moons?

Or, were anyone banned for either of those activities? Got their ISK deleted? Any reactions at all?

It is relatively pointless to try to argue with cipher jones: as you have seen he's not really capable of responding with a reasoned argument or even understanding one. He will simply repeat until hopefully those long words go away.


Quote:
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.


It was an "argument" prior to that post, whining afterwards.

As far as handing out punishments, I have no ******* idea why you are asking me why CCP treated prior exploits with a lackadaisical attitude. I would assume it has something to do with the fact that they almost went bankrupt due to loosing subs and their investors told them to fix their game or they wouldn't extend the loan.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it

Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#1505 - 2012-06-22 20:00:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Cutter Isaacson
Lord Zim wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
Did I mention insurance fraud? Or Pax Amarria? I do not believe that I did. All I said was that anyone caught knowingly abusing a flaw in the system can, and will, have that profit removed. Whether that is by putting wallets in the negative, or by removing items, such as in this case.

Insurance fraud and pax amarria refinery was also "game mechanics" which could be (and was) used to create resources out of thin air.



Indeed, and if I recall correctly people got in trouble over both. Not to mention that insurance fraud is no longer possible because, shock horror, the flawed mechanic was fixed. As for Pax Amarria issues, that would only ever have been a minuscule issue at best, since supply of said item was extremely limited and thus any damage done very minor in comparison to more recent events.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.

Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#1506 - 2012-06-22 20:02:03 UTC
Udonor wrote:
Further more,

players have every right to exploit game mechanics that are merely ill-conceived. That is what games are about. This latest situation did not give one player advantage over another in combat nor even exclusive economic advantage assuming a certain minimum corp size. However, as the GOONs have continually tried to point out -- the effect of such mistakes are often cumulative such that eventually only restarting the game makes any sense. The BEST and most satisfying way to do this is to allow some group to achieve game-wide victory and declare an official winner.

*********** Despite some occasional near catastrophic errors EVE is a game with great potential loyalty. The best and only FAIR way to grow EVE is to start a new shard every 3-5 years while allowing the old shards to wind down naturally to a winner. If CCP wants to grow EVE, they should NOT to make new users deal with a long cumulative economic heritage of CCP and player mistakes. *******************

The distribution of technium moons is a specific example of bad game balance decisions which CCP cannot correct in the existing game without being unfair to someone in a major way. Nor should CCP try and take back ISK the GOONs made off this latest game design faux paus. New shards are a way of starting clean.

New shards (single universes) can basically use common evolving code for ship fighting and station game mechanics. After separating out code dealing with the location of resources and any shard specific politics and victory conditions, there would be very little difference in coding necessary.

But CCP would have a lot of room for changes in "chessbooard"/"sandbox" setup. Maybe its not so easy to fly from one empire faction space to another - fewer routes. Maybe even Empire space is mostly a series of large high sec islands. Maybe there are some small null sec pockets within some Empire regions. Maybe mineral distribution is not so uniform thus making lo sec convoys between high sec islands vital. But in any case new shards would be clear of old cumulative effects and old shards would allow true winners to emerge.

(Heh - I can see special ships that might allow boring one way courses between shard universes {EVE Gate test pilot} -- thus allowing characters and their skills to cross but no wealth except a very limited types of small cargoes. All assuming CCP continuous their extend time skill tree rather than shortening paths in it somewhat.)

EVE isn't fair. Nor should it be.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.

corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
Goonswarm Federation
#1507 - 2012-06-22 20:02:21 UTC
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
Did I mention insurance fraud? Or Pax Amarria? I do not believe that I did. All I said was that anyone caught knowingly abusing a flaw in the system can, and will, have that profit removed. Whether that is by putting wallets in the negative, or by removing items, such as in this case.

Insurance fraud and pax amarria refinery was also "game mechanics" which could be (and was) used to create resources out of thin air.



Indeed, and if I recall correctly people got in trouble both both. Not to mention that insurance fraud is no longer possible because, shock horror, the flawed mechanic was fixed. As for Pax Amarria issues, that would only ever have been a minuscule issue at best, since supply of said item was extremely limited and thus any damage done very minor in comparison to more recent events.


I know for a fact that no one got in trouble for pax amarria, because I myself bought 40 billion isk worth and never heard a peep. And no, the supply was not "limited", you could literally buy as much as you wanted.

No one got in trouble for insurance fraud, either.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo

Ghost Xray
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1508 - 2012-06-22 20:02:44 UTC
Aryth wrote:
CCP is currently in the process of yanking tons of stuff from our accounts. Far beyond what was profited from. The sandbox indeed is not quite as sandboxy as we thought.


Now, that's newsworthy!
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#1509 - 2012-06-22 20:03:17 UTC
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
Did I mention insurance fraud? Or Pax Amarria? I do not believe that I did. All I said was that anyone caught knowingly abusing a flaw in the system can, and will, have that profit removed. Whether that is by putting wallets in the negative, or by removing items, such as in this case.

Insurance fraud and pax amarria refinery was also "game mechanics" which could be (and was) used to create resources out of thin air.



Indeed, and if I recall correctly people got in trouble over both. Not to mention that insurance fraud is no longer possible because, shock horror, the flawed mechanic was fixed. As for Pax Amarria issues, that would only ever have been a minuscule issue at best, since supply of said item was extremely limited and thus any damage done very minor in comparison to more recent events.

You can buy Pax Amarria from NPC sell orders.

And can you show us where anyone got actioned for any of those things? A simple archived forum thread is all you need to provide. eve-search will help.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.

Inspiration
#1510 - 2012-06-22 20:03:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Inspiration
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Inspiration wrote:
corestwo wrote:
Inspiration wrote:
That and this thread really makes a case to remove insurance from the game altogether, as quite a few have arued over in the past. If someone wants insurance let the corp deal with it via mechanism or free market parties. Then if you loose ship after ship in pointless ways, your fee would go trough the roof or you just get plain rejected.

It would probably have the majority of the 0.0 folk go like cry baby, but it would return meaning to pvp victory and loss! Lets see how bad-ass those peeps really are :)


Insurance had nothing to do with what we were doing, you know.


Duh.....but if you look closely, the core of the whole matter is using market manipulation to get NPC favors! FW made it extra easy and lucrative as playing both sites gives extra control over the outcome! The same thing could be done with insurance to a lesser extend as that too is rooted in in-game market statistics.

It already has been, and that caused the insurance nerf.

New to EVE are we?


No, but you are not too bright are you?

It is actually the nerf that introduced the market manipulation!
Before it was just to high a payout set by CCP, now it is based on market statistics that van be manipulated.
The higher the market prices the more payout!

Go ti?

I am serious!

Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#1511 - 2012-06-22 20:03:50 UTC
corestwo wrote:

I know for a fact that no one got in trouble for pax amarria, because I myself bought 40 billion isk worth and never heard a peep. And no, the supply was not "limited", you could literally buy as much as you wanted.

No one got in trouble for insurance fraud, either.


~Talks about how legit it was because he got away with it.~

*frog*

~Logs in to negative wallet.~
Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1512 - 2012-06-22 20:03:58 UTC
CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
Goonswarm Federation
#1513 - 2012-06-22 20:06:20 UTC
Aryth wrote:
CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't.


Including many thousands of datacores that Aryth bought before all of this, of course, off the market. Good luck getting CCP to own up to that mistaken, of course.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo

Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#1514 - 2012-06-22 20:06:20 UTC
Aryth wrote:
CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't.


You do know you can file a bug report without inflating your wallet right?

If the wallet gets inflated in the process, it's logical to expect CCP will fix the whole problem.

The WHOLE problem, not the whole problem minus your finders fee.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1515 - 2012-06-22 20:06:40 UTC
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
Indeed, and if I recall correctly people got in trouble over both.

Pretty certain nobody were, as it would've affected "a lot of people".
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
Not to mention that insurance fraud is no longer possible because, shock horror, the flawed mechanic was fixed.

Just like the FW LP won't be possible because the flawed mechanic will get fixed.
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
As for Pax Amarria issues, that would only ever have been a minuscule issue at best, since supply of said item was extremely limited and thus any damage done very minor in comparison to more recent events.

Heh no. I know of tons of people who bought up a fair bit of billions of isk which they invested in PA. Nobody I've asked have taken flak for th at, and nobody I've talked to have taken flak for insurance frauding either.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
Goonswarm Federation
#1516 - 2012-06-22 20:07:25 UTC
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
Aryth wrote:
CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't.


You do know you can file a bug report without inflating your wallet right?

If the wallet gets inflated in the process, it's logical to expect CCP will fix the whole problem.

The WHOLE problem, not the whole problem minus your finders fee.


Please justify CCP taking assets that were not earned through this.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo

Wibla
Tactical Narcotics Team
#1517 - 2012-06-22 20:07:58 UTC
Pr1ncess Alia: they spent several hundred billions of isk they had beforehand to buy stuff from the LP store, but I very much doubt that CCP will return that to them.

:CCP:
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#1518 - 2012-06-22 20:08:35 UTC
Inspiration wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Inspiration wrote:
corestwo wrote:
Inspiration wrote:
That and this thread really makes a case to remove insurance from the game altogether, as quite a few have arued over in the past. If someone wants insurance let the corp deal with it via mechanism or free market parties. Then if you loose ship after ship in pointless ways, your fee would go trough the roof or you just get plain rejected.

It would probably have the majority of the 0.0 folk go like cry baby, but it would return meaning to pvp victory and loss! Lets see how bad-ass those peeps really are :)


Insurance had nothing to do with what we were doing, you know.


Duh.....but if you look closely, the core of the whole matter is using market manipulation to get NPC favors! FW made it extra easy and lucrative as playing both sites gives extra control over the outcome! The same thing could be done with insurance to a lesser extend as that too is rooted in in-game market statistics.

It already has been, and that caused the insurance nerf.

New to EVE are we?


No, but you are not too bright are you?

It is actually the nerf that introduced the market manipulation!
Before it was just to high a payout set by CCP, now it is based on market statistics that van be manipulated.
The higher the market prices the more payout!

Go ti?

Doesn't work that way tho.

Go try it, you will find you can't.

Insurance is set based on the market value of the minerals that go into the hull, not the hull itself, and the formula was changed so that it would always cost more to build one than you can get from insurance. That was the result of the insurance fraud that created billions of isk out of thin air a few years back.

Might want to do some homework before talking out your ass.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.

Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#1519 - 2012-06-22 20:08:40 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
Did I mention insurance fraud? Or Pax Amarria? I do not believe that I did. All I said was that anyone caught knowingly abusing a flaw in the system can, and will, have that profit removed. Whether that is by putting wallets in the negative, or by removing items, such as in this case.

Insurance fraud and pax amarria refinery was also "game mechanics" which could be (and was) used to create resources out of thin air.



Indeed, and if I recall correctly people got in trouble over both. Not to mention that insurance fraud is no longer possible because, shock horror, the flawed mechanic was fixed. As for Pax Amarria issues, that would only ever have been a minuscule issue at best, since supply of said item was extremely limited and thus any damage done very minor in comparison to more recent events.

You can buy Pax Amarria from NPC sell orders.

And can you show us where anyone got actioned for any of those things? A simple archived forum thread is all you need to provide. eve-search will help.


My apologies on the Pax Amarria issue, I incorrectly inferred that this was an issue with the newly released Pax.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.

Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#1520 - 2012-06-22 20:08:52 UTC
corestwo wrote:
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
Aryth wrote:
CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't.


You do know you can file a bug report without inflating your wallet right?

If the wallet gets inflated in the process, it's logical to expect CCP will fix the whole problem.

The WHOLE problem, not the whole problem minus your finders fee.


Please justify CCP taking assets that were not earned through this.


Mess with the bull you get the horns.