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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

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Vincent VanDamme
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#841 - 2012-06-22 09:29:08 UTC
Singulis Pacifica wrote:
Vincent VanDamme wrote:
So, a bug was abused?

This is a no brainer, isn't it?




Actually, it's not that simple. If this case would ever be brought to a real-life court, the Goons would likely go free. The problem is that there is no decisive evidence to support that the Goons did do this on purpose.


I don't think this is a court.

Like i said previous, we've banned people for less on our game. And owning up to it just gets you a "Well, thanks for admitting to it", right after the banhammer.
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
#842 - 2012-06-22 09:32:14 UTC
atrum dux wrote:
Wait so I'm getting banned for manipulating the jita market?
Well if CCP do anything to GS over this conceivably - yes. A precedent will have been set.
Fuujin
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#843 - 2012-06-22 09:33:25 UTC
Better Than You wrote:
Thanks for ruining the FW and the LP market you attention starved jerks! About time you shove off and ruin a different game don't you think?! I look forward to your bans for exploiting game mechanics and will be here drinking in the oceans of tears from your fellow alliance mates crying about how their buddy was given the kick to the curb.

-2 accounts till goons are removed from the game. They say they bring content, but it is in fact a complete load of bullshit.


So you're mad because they were...Better Than You?


Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#844 - 2012-06-22 09:36:10 UTC
Kinis Deren wrote:
I wonder why CCP aren't heralding yet another "awesome player driven event by Goonswarm!" this time? Will heads roll at CCP over this? That would be a sad turn of events, IMHO.

Did Mittens and co just throw CCP "under the bus" for a bit of post Fanfest/CSM election fiasco payback or is this a deflection strategy over the Inferno 1.1 war dec change drama. /me adjusts tinfoil hat P

How many alts could you create with the profit to influence the outcome of, say, CSM8? Twisted


This was not done by "Goonswarm." This was done by a cabal of extremely rich and extremely knowledgeable Goonswarm members using their own capital. There is a huge distinction here.

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Preceptor Stigmartyr
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#845 - 2012-06-22 09:38:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Preceptor Stigmartyr
That's just pride ****ing with them. Nice gamble.

http://imgur.com/dfVDn.jpg Cool

**4/19 **NEVER FORGET ಠ_ಠ
Kmelx
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#846 - 2012-06-22 09:39:07 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
Keep in mind that CCP Sreegs is the one who disqualified Hydra and OB from ATX. He is also the one who routinely seizes ISK and assets, and applies the ban hammer, to RMT accounts. He would not be my first choice of CCP devs to accuse of making empty threats.


Those assets/accounts are all acquired through abuse of the EULA by botting, or RMT, essentially he has grounds on the basis of the EULA to take action against those accounts. The Alliance Tournament is subject to whatever rules they want to make up.

There are no such rules or grounds here IMO. CCP designed the game, Goons played the game, in playing the game they made ISK, truly obscene amounts of ISK but they did so via the mechanics that CCP introduced into the game, I don't see how CCP can possibly justify taking the ISK or the assets/LP back.
Vincent VanDamme
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#847 - 2012-06-22 09:39:42 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:


This was not done by "Goonswarm." This was done by a cabal of extremely rich and extremely knowledgeable Goonswarm members using their own capital. There is a huge distinction here.


I think this needs to be bourne in mind. GSF may do a lot of stuff in game, but i don't think its fair to blame the entire corp for the actions of a few in this situation.
SupaFlyTNT
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#848 - 2012-06-22 09:44:16 UTC
That's pretty well played P

/tips hat
Pisov viet
Perkone
Caldari State
#849 - 2012-06-22 09:44:41 UTC
Vincent VanDamme wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:


This was not done by "Goonswarm." This was done by a cabal of extremely rich and extremely knowledgeable Goonswarm members using their own capital. There is a huge distinction here.


I think this needs to be bourne in mind. GSF may do a lot of stuff in game, but i don't think its fair to blame the entire corp for the actions of a few in this situation.



And by "blame" you mean "congratulate", right?
Cebraio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#850 - 2012-06-22 09:52:01 UTC
And here I was, thinking goons were just a bunch of mindless tools who could win with quantity but not with quality.

Well played, gentlemen!

* slow hands clap *

I feel much more space-poor now.
Vincent VanDamme
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#851 - 2012-06-22 09:52:54 UTC
Pisov viet wrote:
Vincent VanDamme wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:


This was not done by "Goonswarm." This was done by a cabal of extremely rich and extremely knowledgeable Goonswarm members using their own capital. There is a huge distinction here.


I think this needs to be bourne in mind. GSF may do a lot of stuff in game, but i don't think its fair to blame the entire corp for the actions of a few in this situation.



And by "blame" you mean "congratulate", right?


Not really.

I dont thing congratulating people on bug abuse is really gonna happen.
Imryn Xaran
Coherent Light Enterprises
#852 - 2012-06-22 09:58:21 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Ituhata Saken wrote:
Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,

At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. Don’t be That Guy.


By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.


I’d be interested to hear how you are twisting this into being an “abuse”. As far as I can see the mechanics being used here are working exactly the way you guys designed them to work. The fact that you have now decided to change the way some of those mechanics work is irrelevant.

Also I’m a bit worried to see that although the investigation isn’t yet complete you already seem to have decided what the outcome will be. I would HOPE that a full investigation would highlight what have to be enormous flaws in your design and QA processes that allowed this system to be implemented, and I would HOPE that the resulting recommendations would strongly suggest that additional testing and QA processes were needed to emphasise the testing of “edge” or “limiting” cases.

I EXPECT your investigation will gloss over the failures of CCP employees (as usual) and place the blame on the players who in this case are obviously smarter than all of you guys put together.

Isn’t it about time you guys at CCP realised that this isn’t a game? This is your lively –hood and you should probably start to act with a bit more professionalism when it comes to the changes you make to it.
Capqu
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#853 - 2012-06-22 10:00:11 UTC
shut up nerds

jimmy carr paid 1% tax for a bit, it ain't illegal, he wont go to jail. but the bbc will fix the tax system
same thing happened here
fix the system ccp, don't send jimmy carr to jail
do ccp think they are bigger than THE QUEEN??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5tVbVu9Mkg
Wisdom Divine
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#854 - 2012-06-22 10:01:02 UTC
Nothing surprising here.

CCP has a track record of design failures when it comes to malleable mechanics and grasping the lengths players will go to optimize them.

What you see is the market equivalent of a blapping titan.

There are the people who can optimize the turret tracking formula.

Then there are the people who can optimize the 3-month moving average formula.

I can see why CCP is trying to fix blapping titans. What I didn't see was CCP reimbuirsing players who lost subcaps to blapping. I didn't see sov changes resulting to titan use reversed. I didn't see titan pilots banned.

Why should it be any different for market moving averages? Because they were Goons, and we don't like them?

Back to the tracking analogy, unless there was an actual bug, like that one time when Rooks and Kings fought off those magnetar dudes with infinite tracking turrets, I find manipulating 3-month moving averages completely within the rules of the game; and while a fix would be welcome, just as with the subcap sniping titans, it is a legitimate tactic.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#855 - 2012-06-22 10:01:41 UTC
Anyone else notice that 'Jewbal' is a tautology, since is a combination of 'Jew' and 'cabal'?

The term cabal derives from Kabbalah (a word that has numerous spelling variations), which is a Jewish belief system(among other things), so it logically follows that a cabal is generally gonna be a bunch of Jews.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Pisov viet
Perkone
Caldari State
#856 - 2012-06-22 10:04:50 UTC
Vincent VanDamme wrote:
Pisov viet wrote:
Vincent VanDamme wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:


This was not done by "Goonswarm." This was done by a cabal of extremely rich and extremely knowledgeable Goonswarm members using their own capital. There is a huge distinction here.


I think this needs to be bourne in mind. GSF may do a lot of stuff in game, but i don't think its fair to blame the entire corp for the actions of a few in this situation.



And by "blame" you mean "congratulate", right?


Not really.

I dont thing congratulating people on bug abuse is really gonna happen.


But...It wasnt a bug.
A bug is when code do something it shouldnt do.

Ships killed would give LP according to the price, price would be calculated on the exchange price of the last 3 months. Everything was working as intended. Except the formula was poorly designed.

The code did what it was supposed to do, but the design behind the code was flawed.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#857 - 2012-06-22 10:07:28 UTC
Cebraio wrote:
I feel much more space-poor now.

Actually, you're comparatively spacericher on the basis of tons of ISK being taken out of the game permanently.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
#858 - 2012-06-22 10:07:29 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Kinis Deren wrote:
I wonder why CCP aren't heralding yet another "awesome player driven event by Goonswarm!" this time? Will heads roll at CCP over this? That would be a sad turn of events, IMHO.

Did Mittens and co just throw CCP "under the bus" for a bit of post Fanfest/CSM election fiasco payback or is this a deflection strategy over the Inferno 1.1 war dec change drama. /me adjusts tinfoil hat P

How many alts could you create with the profit to influence the outcome of, say, CSM8? Twisted


This was not done by "Goonswarm." This was done by a cabal of extremely rich and extremely knowledgeable Goonswarm members using their own capital. There is a huge distinction here.



Thats funny the 1st 4 pages of this thread was a circle jerk of Goon members congratulating each other on how Goons have done it again,

Now the **** has hit the fan its, "oh nothing to do with the general Goon membership"

When did the huge distinction appear ?

Poor attempt at spin, no use trying to shut the stable door after the horse has bolted.


Goons to CCP "we aren't trying to ruin the game just your game" Lol

Tal


Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#859 - 2012-06-22 10:10:03 UTC
Crellion wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:

A design feature which is coded correctly, but does not work as intended in the field, is indeed known as a design "bug".

These sorts of bugs happen frequently in large, complex software systems, where it is difficult or impossible to work out all of the possible use cases, via QA or simulation, prior to release.

I disagree with the part in bold.

A great many people saw this merely from reading the dev blog... so for the devs not to spot it .... hmmmm....

QA checklists and simulation code are designed to test out the original specification use cases only. It is simply impossible to test every possible combination in a large, complex system. And, a design bug will usually not be caught here, because a design feature is not considered to be a bug, by the developers, until it has actually failed in the field.

Design bugs are most commonly discovered by end users, and, oddly enough, frequently pointed out even before the system was finalized or built.

Unfortunately, software developers often experience tunnel vision, with regards to their designs and are reluctant to admit to possible design flaws, esp. to end users. This is particularly prevalent when the developer has no or little actual hands-on experience in the area for which the software is being designed.

I have seen this quite often first-hand, working in many different fields, and usually require my developers to spend several weeks doing the end user's job, on a real project, before starting on any actual application design work. In a few instances, I've allowed a stubborn developer to do a design doc first, spend a couple of weeks on the job, and then revisit his/her design doc. In all such cases, the developer has thrown away his/her original design and successfully built something that the end user can actually use. A great deal of time and money is saved, since the first release actually works, as the end user expects it to work.

In other forum threads, i've suggested that CCP try a similar development strategy, particularly with regards to changes to the UI and new feature design/changes targeted to a specific subset of the player base, such as mining.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#860 - 2012-06-22 10:10:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
Vincent VanDamme wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Wille Sanara wrote:
So...exploiting a game mechanic that is obviously not working as intended is a bug, right? So we are going to see banhammer strike, right, CCP?Shocked

By that logic neut logis should be banhammered, people evading wardecs through neutral alts should be banhammered, people blapping BSes with tracking-fit titans should be banhammered etc.


Not sure if serious.

The logic isnt the same.

Yes, it is. It's all a game mechanic which is being used in a fashion which CCP didn't think of when it was made. Neut logis weren't supposed to be usable in a war to make f.ex what appears to be a 1v1 engagement in reality be a 1v1+10 neut logis. Titans weren't supposed to be subcap blapping machines, yet that's part of what they were used for. Titans weren't supposed to be used for POS bowling, yet that's also part of what they were used for, etc etc etc. And FW wasn't supposed to be this gameable, yet that's what they ended up being used for.

What's common between all of these? Unintended consequences, and all 4 of those examples have been (or have been stated will be) changed. And no-one have been banned for using them.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat