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Hiding in Eve- Why We Cloak

Author
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#201 - 2012-06-21 04:04:05 UTC
+1

This would make EVE "a lot more real". More diversity, more activity, more fun.

Remove standings and insurance.

Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
#202 - 2012-06-21 04:08:06 UTC
Xorv wrote:
I like the ideas and vision for EVE you present. Practically speaking though what would you suggest CCP do that doesn't take several years for them to deliver?


I too agree. This vision and ideas are cool.

However, I think they are a bit too ambitious, and he only one really concrete short term, is delayed local, which is easy to implement.

Nearly all other ideas require major changes to the mechanics of the game. Which we as we now, is asking for Soon™.

So I put the thinking hat on, and came up with a solution:

1) Eliminate all general purpose cloaks. Only leave the specialized ones and the specialized ships for them (because Stealth Bombers and Blockade Runners are necessary and cool). This also returns them to their true role as unique ships, rather than as just ships that can fire faster after decloak.

2) Introduce a new module - call it the Signature Reduction Module, in the two techs and various metas (affecting cycle speed and negative bonuses as well as CPU, PG, and cap needs) and with scripts. This module would use the existing ship signature and reduce it incredibly, and would also cloak the ship to certain ranges based on the base sig radius. The negative bonuses could be the sames as a cloak, less targeting speed after inactivation and a hit to max speed. The various scripts would allow to customize the experience to the player:

a) A pure reduction script - adds to the sig reduction, but increases the negative bonuses etc.

b) A pure negative bonus script - reduce the negative bonuses, but decrease the sig reduction.

c) a middle script - adds a little more to the reduction, but also has a little more neg bonus.

d) etc etc etc

3) When using this module, the visual range of a ship is related to the ability of someone to lock the ship in under X seconds. If you can lock it in under X, then yo can see it, it shows in overview and you can lock it.

4) This is similar to how the sensor booster works, so no need to learn a new mechanic for it to work.


This would be extremely easy to achieve as all it does is adapt the existing cloak and sig radius ECM and ECCM code.

It would also introduce some of the advantages of terrain without needing a major code overhaul.

Think about it.

Of course, the ideal would be to introduce real terrain, heat, etc, but that could take years. My proposal is doable in relatively short term.
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Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#203 - 2012-06-21 06:32:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Grumpy Owly
I have to say this is one of "the" more exciting new proposals I've seen in a while personally and gets my support.

It's well thought out also and considers the ramifications of both sides whilst looking at current topical thinking on a number of issues players are having problems with regarding intelligence.



Some extra things to consider might be an extentsion to the active strategical model as an IG tool. This is where the "scout/recon" role can actually helpfully provide more of an initial role within fleets/corps/alliances. If a scout aquires a "target" he is capable of bookmarking the details and adding this information at a corporation level for shared use. At present this is used generically for varous in game needs both with military and commercial advantages.

The extension to this could be to allow a small management to "target" related details so that commanders can effectively prioritise targets and as such help to feed information through to co-oridnated efforts of how best to "dish" out tasks to various individuals/fleets. However, I think it needs to retain the "at time" information as opposed to "real time" information as is current, so that as a complete tactical package it will never replace the need for having effective co-ordinated communications or commanders reacting to real time changes. But certainly having some strategic tool to help co-ordiante tasks fed through from scouts might add a helpful tool.

e.g. scout finds a POS, he BM's it at organisational level. A commander can then maipulate this to than prioritise that target and or/apply specific parties for attention.

To make this more effective then it would mean applying more information to BM's. Like a sub file which may store this strategic info feed items in by command. Likewise it could contain useful info like screen prints with some overview info feed within to help see the actual details. This occurs anyhow but needs a bit of out of game manipulation to achieve to help share. Prinicipally if this could be hosted more at the server level it could go a long way of putting the intel in recon imho.



Other general feedback points about the ideas:

Hopefully not go too module heavy on the hunter as the need to have lots of "toys" just to do the job as this subtracts from the combat capabilties. This is generally the balancing notion with the stealth/hunter role in that they are limited in combat effectiveness by design already by the CCP model for having these capabilties. But if tweaks to fittings compensate the changes to derived added mod use expected of the role then that works just as good. Potentially yes this could mean more a team orientated need to fullfill these things, but the need to retain some solo related gameplay here may be neccesary for various reasons including some other than just functional.

Cloak fuel I'm happy with as a "management" issue if it can still be measured in hours as some observational recon duties are a "patience" exercise at the best of times. One obvious issue with the cargo use and fuel are firstly stealth bombers as bombs take up a lot of space, and secondly Blockade runners whose objective is to make best use of the limited cargo capacities they have currently, some issues with cyno use might be apparent here also for recon ships but if a seperate fuel bay or extension to cargo aspects can compensate here might not compromise those dedicated functions. Certainly the timings of hours might be most applicable and would go a long way to helping with AFK cloakies.

Removal of the easy to use local chat intel issue we have currently should not really occur without having the neccesary tools for active "ships in space" network of information to help compensate for the lack of info. But I'm all for making this a more "active" benefit to intel than the passive ease of the chat channel useage presently. The need for miner awareness tools might need to be improved here as a result as the calls for miners to be active and aware can be a bit reliant on the existing intel tools like local at present for an early warning. This is mainly due to some disparities with the miner being a slug on the agility scale and not wanting to make the "suprise" element so much more easier. As you could argue with the "warp to" cloakie capabailites and fast entry into local to apply a better use of the suprise tactics there isn't a lot of time for reaction always.

Also might be usefull to consider the "look outside the window" issue on stations if local was simply removed? The gate combat issues and camping is a bit more culturally problematic and convoluted and I don't really have a problem with it really. But I don't really have a magic wand to some of the more apparent "blob" concerns either. Some of the new mods with e-war targetting and other things might help to compensate here?



As some potential "novelty" ideas to explore for intel focussed roles:

1) Limited useage of drop satalites in systems and use them to d-scan in systems remotely (variable ranges)?

2) Remote camera drones/probes, allow a drone/probe to feedback visual information from a distance.

3) Scramble system communications, interupt d-scan integrity.

4) Mirage projection systems. Dummy ship representation.

5) Tracking Devices, ability to attach devices to ships to reveal its location, remotely, similar to the locater agent features.



Otherwise the proposals to add more impact to the relevance of inteligence and the related subterfuge aspects of the gameplay should be explored more and given more emphasis as real things to consider as opposed to having an entilted expectation to having it. Keep working at it with the playerbase OP but I really like where you are going with this manifesto on the subject.
Wu Jiaqiu
#204 - 2012-06-21 08:23:57 UTC
Excellent idea
Forest Hill
Tirones Inc.
SLYCE Pirates
#205 - 2012-06-21 14:50:42 UTC
TL;DR

Removing local would virtually kill industry as a meaningful activity in nullsec.. no miner I know is going to risk hundreds of millions of ISK with virtually no protection. And mining isn't lucrative enough to warrant the manpower needed to guard every miner out there. So it'll have to be heavily guarded mining ops, CTA style. Well, that sounds like fun...

I could agree to the delay or removal of Local, if you could buy it back as an upgrade in your ihub, and then only if CCP would end the ability to 'afk cloaky camp' such an upgraded system.
Draek
Tarmikos Shipyards
#206 - 2012-06-21 16:03:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Draek
I just wanted to say I really like these ideas and I think it adds nice gameplay elements for both hunter and hunted.

There is one thing I wanted to add though.

I like the mechanic that the larger your signature radius is the "hotter" you are as a target and thus easier to find.

However I was thinking in addition to certain modules increasing/decreasing this value perhaps certain actions would as well.

Decreasing actions:
- Sitting still
- Hiding next to bodies with higher sig radius (asteroids, planets, maybe even bigger ships)

Increasing actions:
- Running MWD (this does it already but just asserting it makes you easier to spot with sensors as well)
- Warping

I also mulled over weapons/modules increasing this as well since it seems logical if there is fighting it's easier to detect (passive or active).

However if we're playing with the actual sig radius value these actions would make you easier to hit which I doubt anyone would like without a complete rebalance of sigs and how weapons hit.

If that's not possible perhaps there is a way to make the area where the fight is happening hot to sensors instead of the people inside. Expanding on this idea could lead to a visualization of hot sig events on the solar system map, complete with areas of recent activity, warp trails, etc...

Essentially a signature fingerprint of the last few hours or so.
Forest Hill
Tirones Inc.
SLYCE Pirates
#207 - 2012-06-21 18:47:45 UTC
I was thinking about this a bit more.. it actually isn't that strange to have local intel. After all, you have jumped through a gate into a system. Anyone who hasn't jumped out or who's pod hasn't been destroyed, must automatically be in the system. Traffic control/Concord has this knowledge.

The only reason why concord would *not* know about a pilot/ship in local is - I think - theoretically, if it was built in local and never jumped through something, or undocked. Perhaps someone better versed in the lore dept. can shed some light on this.
Riieck
Perkone
Caldari State
#208 - 2012-06-22 03:14:06 UTC
I am definitely in favor of:

- Using sensors to track people down.

- Using some sort of log in the stargates to check for people

- Using ship systems to make your enemy's sensors think you are bigger/smaller than you really are.

- Using nearby "terrain" to shield/mask sensors (although it is easy to implement, it might be hard to actually put to use, unless the mechanic uses only range to object as the mask and not direction+range [ie having to go to the dark side of the body to hide from somebody].

- How about a signature minimizer module? Will not hide you completely but will make you significantly harder to track. Advantages will be less penalty to speed vs full cloak (after all the engines should make some interstellar EM noise). Also this should be fittable to any ship. A good skill level will lessen speed penalty while lowering long range signature. The module should not have any usefullness at "visual" range.

Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue
#209 - 2012-06-22 03:58:03 UTC
To the player population in general: thank you for the kudos, the general positive reinforcement and the constructive discourse so far. I'd like to deliver a few thoughts on the discussion:

The concept of sensing other players and intelligence gathering shouldn't come in the form of an additional module. There shouldn't be an additional layer of something new added to the game in order to accomplish this. Everything should be inherent to what we do naturally: fit ships, fight, play the game as we always do.

It's not too impossible for CCP to implement this. The ideas and concepts are not too far out of reach. CCP needs to build sensing and stealth factors into every layer of choice. Every module, every ship hull, every action.

Think of activity as 'dust'. Everything you do as a pilot kicks up said dust. The dust can be visualized as a heat map (see population representation as 'blobs' on the galactic map) on our system level sensors. We can use larger signatures to mask our own smaller signature and blend into the surrounding shadow of larger objects, or even old fights, where other ships have kicked up a lot of 'dust' that is now drifting across the solar system.

It shouldn't be that difficult for CCP to implement this. The computational and database overhead shouldn't be too much. We're not talking about real time combat. The server checks could be very limited if need be. Additional variables are assigned to each module to affect their effect upon the overall signature output of a ship in a given posture. My point is, let's work within the existing framework we have. No need to invent additional modules etc.

I see a few posts worried that solo hunters would be at a disadvantage due to the need for specialized sensing modules, or have to dumb down their combat fits for more offensive sensing capability. Not at all. I'm a solo player first and foremost. I want the solo player with a keen intellect to be the most dangerous opponent in the galaxy. Slip in, kill, and slip out undetected.

Quite a few players are horrified at the prospect of a veritable Call To Arms in order to have to do something as mundane as a mining op. Why not? Mining ops are an almost social occasion. Why not involve the PVP arms of the alliance as well? Of course it will be worth it ISK-wise. The added cost of the defenders will be incorporated into the price of the minerals. Because your time isn't free, right? Right?

With the added mining frigate (it looks so awesome!), there would even be the option of sneaking in and mining with a signature so small that it goes undetected or is simply ignored as a false positve. Think about that for a second. A false positive. What if there was enough naturally occuring activity that there are numerous false positives. Enough that it's actually feasable to hide among them. The hunters dilemma: do we check out every one, or just move on to the next system? What is real? What is ambient? What is fake? What does your gut tell you?

Everyone who instantly fears for whatever way of life they currently have in Eve and worries that it might get disrupted or horribly destroyed: good. You've been doing the same stupid crap for the better part of 8-9 years now. Eve needs some dramatic and far reaching core game play changes to keep it new and fresh. Rebalancing a few T1 frigs isn't my idea of change. Changes like that are evolutionary, not revolutionary. I want to see CCP be fearless. Put their money where their mouth is. Show me that you care CCP.

There are so many opportunities for truely dramatic game play. All CCP has to do is abandon the incremental and safe development and reach for the gold ring. They've done it before. They might have the balls to do it again.
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue
#210 - 2012-06-22 05:48:19 UTC
Also- the thread finally got moved to F&I. Big smileSadRollBlink
Wu Jiaqiu
#211 - 2012-06-22 11:03:39 UTC
I was about to mention that in General. But I guess the intent of the OP was to get as much attention as possible.

Still +1 support from me to change this
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#212 - 2012-06-22 11:10:57 UTC
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:
Also- the thread finally got moved to F&I. Big smileSadRollBlink


I petitioned to get it moved. I got tired of it getting buried under a deluge of Goons R Bad and **** Miners threads.

I apologize if my actions have offended anyone.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

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Jack Paladin
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#213 - 2012-06-22 13:03:47 UTC
Brilliant, simply brilliant.

+1
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue
#214 - 2012-06-22 14:58:16 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:
Also- the thread finally got moved to F&I. Big smileSadRollBlink


I petitioned to get it moved. I got tired of it getting buried under a deluge of Goons R Bad and **** Miners threads.

I apologize if my actions have offended anyone.


No problem, was too lazy to do it myself ;)
Wu Jiaqiu
#215 - 2012-06-24 13:13:59 UTC
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:
To the player population in general: thank you for the kudos, the general positive reinforcement and the constructive discourse so far. I'd like to deliver a few thoughts on the discussion:

The concept of sensing other players and intelligence gathering shouldn't come in the form of an additional module. There shouldn't be an additional layer of something new added to the game in order to accomplish this. Everything should be inherent to what we do naturally: fit ships, fight, play the game as we always do.

It's not too impossible for CCP to implement this. The ideas and concepts are not too far out of reach. CCP needs to build sensing and stealth factors into every layer of choice. Every module, every ship hull, every action.

Think of activity as 'dust'. Everything you do as a pilot kicks up said dust. The dust can be visualized as a heat map (see population representation as 'blobs' on the galactic map) on our system level sensors. We can use larger signatures to mask our own smaller signature and blend into the surrounding shadow of larger objects, or even old fights, where other ships have kicked up a lot of 'dust' that is now drifting across the solar system.

It shouldn't be that difficult for CCP to implement this. The computational and database overhead shouldn't be too much. We're not talking about real time combat. The server checks could be very limited if need be. Additional variables are assigned to each module to affect their effect upon the overall signature output of a ship in a given posture. My point is, let's work within the existing framework we have. No need to invent additional modules etc.

I see a few posts worried that solo hunters would be at a disadvantage due to the need for specialized sensing modules, or have to dumb down their combat fits for more offensive sensing capability. Not at all. I'm a solo player first and foremost. I want the solo player with a keen intellect to be the most dangerous opponent in the galaxy. Slip in, kill, and slip out undetected.

Quite a few players are horrified at the prospect of a veritable Call To Arms in order to have to do something as mundane as a mining op. Why not? Mining ops are an almost social occasion. Why not involve the PVP arms of the alliance as well? Of course it will be worth it ISK-wise. The added cost of the defenders will be incorporated into the price of the minerals. Because your time isn't free, right? Right?

With the added mining frigate (it looks so awesome!), there would even be the option of sneaking in and mining with a signature so small that it goes undetected or is simply ignored as a false positve. Think about that for a second. A false positive. What if there was enough naturally occuring activity that there are numerous false positives. Enough that it's actually feasable to hide among them. The hunters dilemma: do we check out every one, or just move on to the next system? What is real? What is ambient? What is fake? What does your gut tell you?

Everyone who instantly fears for whatever way of life they currently have in Eve and worries that it might get disrupted or horribly destroyed: good. You've been doing the same stupid crap for the better part of 8-9 years now. Eve needs some dramatic and far reaching core game play changes to keep it new and fresh. Rebalancing a few T1 frigs isn't my idea of change. Changes like that are evolutionary, not revolutionary. I want to see CCP be fearless. Put their money where their mouth is. Show me that you care CCP.

There are so many opportunities for truely dramatic game play. All CCP has to do is abandon the incremental and safe development and reach for the gold ring. They've done it before. They might have the balls to do it again.


Im still waiting for that dev post. :(
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
SE7EN-SINS
#216 - 2012-06-25 17:47:18 UTC
The idea of passive sensors not being able to accurately glean information about things is very silly. We could see the attitude control thrusters of the Space Shuttle firing in the asteroid belt from Earth with passive sensor technology available today. If it had its primary engine online, we could spot it anywhere out to Neptune's orbit, with passive sensor technology available today.

The flare of an interstellar antimatter rocket could be seen from Alpha Centauri.

With passive sensor technology.

Available today.

You can tell an insane amount of things simply from the exhaust plume of a ship alone - detailed analysis can give you fairly accurate information about the ship's exhaust velocity, engine mass flow, engine power, thrust, acceleration, mass and bearing. Spectroscopy can tell you what fuel the engine's burning. With all this information you can easily determine the class of warship, and maybe make a good stab at determining which particular member of that class it is (since even with the massive-scale starship manufacturing present in EVE, no two members of a ship class will be built exactly alike).

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Garonis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#217 - 2012-06-26 00:14:10 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
The idea of passive sensors not being able to accurately glean information about things is very silly. We could see the attitude control thrusters of the Space Shuttle firing in the asteroid belt from Earth with passive sensor technology available today. If it had its primary engine online, we could spot it anywhere out to Neptune's orbit, with passive sensor technology available today.

The flare of an interstellar antimatter rocket could be seen from Alpha Centauri.

With passive sensor technology.

Available today.

You can tell an insane amount of things simply from the exhaust plume of a ship alone - detailed analysis can give you fairly accurate information about the ship's exhaust velocity, engine mass flow, engine power, thrust, acceleration, mass and bearing. Spectroscopy can tell you what fuel the engine's burning. With all this information you can easily determine the class of warship, and maybe make a good stab at determining which particular member of that class it is (since even with the massive-scale starship manufacturing present in EVE, no two members of a ship class will be built exactly alike).




Ahh but spectography and the like are limited to the speed of light... just wanted to throw that out there.
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
SE7EN-SINS
#218 - 2012-06-26 08:15:37 UTC
Garonis wrote:
Ahh but spectography and the like are limited to the speed of light... just wanted to throw that out there.


Yeah but EVE has future magic space technology. D-scan can already tell you a fair few things instantly (like ship type, and bizarrely, callsign) that would take two hours to learn at light-speed.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Hailynn Delixa
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#219 - 2012-06-26 11:06:49 UTC
Like.

Dense nebulae, solar wind radition and just about anything else with some sort of astronomical effect is missing in this game.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#220 - 2012-06-26 11:28:55 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
The flare of an interstellar antimatter rocket could be seen from Alpha Centauri.

With passive sensor technology.

Available today.


I don't want to troll but you assert that the means to "see" an antimatter rocket from Alpha Centauri is available to us today. How is that possible considering that antimatter rockets are NOT available to us today?

The game mechanics of this design are more "submarine" in nature. Think of this more in terms of playing a submarine, "cat and mouse" game. Think of The Hunt for Red October and you will see this concept as the OP envisions its deployment. Passive SONAR "listening" for signatures amidst the "background noise" of space. Active SONAR "pinging" in a particular direction to sniff out it's prey (and revealing the location of a cloaked ship).

If you keep the framework of this concept in those terms, it will make more sense.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

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