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Ancillary Armor Repper: making armor pvp more viable again
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FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#21 - 2012-06-20 14:11:13 UTC
Mira Lynne wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnwI2oVCkqk&feature=fvwrel
Totally Useless. Not worth using at all.
Skip to about 5:30. Vindi Tanking 6BSs and 5BCs.

No, that Vindi did not tank 11 ships. It tanked 3 or 4 at a time. 6 BS and 5 BCs would have demolished that thing's tank.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Mira Lynne
State War Academy
Caldari State
#22 - 2012-06-20 17:29:36 UTC
masternerdguy wrote:
I was agreeing with you......

I realise you were being sarcastic - i was agreeing with you, too.
Emphasizing your point with another Video.

FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
No, that Vindi did not tank 11 ships. It tanked 3 or 4 at a time. 6 BS and 5 BCs would have demolished that thing's tank.

True - They werent all at the same time. Probably should have clarified, my bad.
Still - a total of 11 mixed BSs and BCs, even if spread out with only 3/4 at a time, is still pretty damn impressive.

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FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#23 - 2012-06-20 19:20:41 UTC
Mira Lynne wrote:
Still - a total of 11 mixed BSs and BCs, even if spread out with only 3/4 at a time, is still pretty damn impressive.


Ehh...a faction BS *should* be able to do that sort of thing. I doubt he was never fighting more than the value of his bare hull at any one time.

Point is, I've seen shield fits that cost half the Vindi--never mind his mods--capable of the same tank. They only lack the DPS.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Viribus
Bayraktar Warlord
Aurora. Australis
#24 - 2012-06-20 20:09:39 UTC
Yeah look at this vindi kill all this stuff, active armour tanking is totally viable!

(with legion links, slaves/numon, and a multibillion isk tank)

watch me be a scurb and get owned
Mira Lynne
State War Academy
Caldari State
#25 - 2012-06-20 21:01:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Mira Lynne
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Ehh...a faction BS *should* be able to do that sort of thing. I doubt he was never fighting more than the value of his bare hull at any one time.

Point is, I've seen shield fits that cost half the Vindi--never mind his mods--capable of the same tank. They only lack the DPS.

Consider the total value destroyed.
Also, IIRC XLSB+SBA is about the same boost/rep per second as Dual LAR.
Add to the fact that Shield ships have less mids than Armor ships have lows, and it becomes a nightmare to get a workabel fit with Cap booster+Booster+SBA, wheras armor fits often have Cap Booster (+Occasional Auxiliary Cap Booster) +Rep +Rep (+Occasional Tertiary Rep)
Case in Point: What shield ships have 8 Mids?
Scorpion and Variations - because of their roles (ECM/Brick Tank)
What Armor Ships have 8 Lows?
Armageddon, Navygeddon, Navypocalypse, Fleet Phoon, Navythron.
Same is true for smaller shiptypes, though they dont go up to a full 8 slots.
If shield ships were to gain some mids, then i would fully support this idea. Untill then, No.

Viribus wrote:
Yeah look at this vindi kill all this stuff, active armour tanking is totally viable!

(with legion links, slaves/numon, and a multibillion isk tank)


Read the comments on the Vid (I think part 2)
He does NOT use Boosters/Slaves, and IIRC his fit is worth less than the Hull itself.
Edit: Ok, that fit is pretty expensive...Oops

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Midori Tsu
Evolution
Northern Coalition.
#26 - 2012-06-21 08:51:54 UTC
Mira Lynne wrote:
... IIRC his fit is worth less than the Hull itself.


http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=2848915

nope.
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
#27 - 2012-06-21 08:59:32 UTC
Blastil wrote:
When will armor reps get the same love and attention as shield reps? Most armor ships suffer from lack of midslots for cap boosters, and I think a real reasonable solution to the lackluster viability of armor repping in solo and small gang pvp would be to enable active armor ships to free themselves from the need to have a midslot consumed by cap boosting. It would also help them not be so vulnerable to cap warfare.

Its primary drawbacks should be:
1) Increased powergrid requirements over a regular repper
2) Similar drawbacks to the Ancillary boosters requiring cap boosters, and long reload times.
3) High cap usage.

The real difficulty with armor pvp is that pvp ship fittings require 2-3 midslots already for any viable fit. using a thorax as an example, one slot MUST BE a mwd. Your second slot MUST BE a scram, and your third slot MUST BE a web, or simply, its not going to be able to kill anything, as it will simply fly out of its 5KM gun range. This leaves no room for a cap booster, required for armor repping. This leaves the only viable fit for a thorax either a nano shield thorax (which is kind of a head scratcher) and the 1600 mm plate thorax. Not so much flexibility.

I say what's good for the goose is good for the gander, and what's good for shield repping, is good for armor repping.


Ever heard of a tackler?

You see, armor tanked ships are meant to be glass cannons in PVP, to encourage the use of logistics and tacklers.

So if you want to be mister-do-it-all-solo-pvp-killboard-god, then get on a shield tank. Otherwise, if you want to do PVP that takes skill, coordination, and intelligence, not just hitting function keys, then do armor tank.

This is a pilot-side issue.
Eve forums official anthem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA Real men tank hull. Fake women shield-tank Gallente.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#28 - 2012-06-21 15:15:16 UTC
Midori Tsu wrote:
Mira Lynne wrote:
... IIRC his fit is worth less than the Hull itself.


http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=2848915

nope.


The only thing this snowflake lol KM shows is that if you can't afford a 6 billion fit you suck at armor tanking ?

Lol

Remembers me some fight, Brutix armor cane HAM Drake all buffer vs Tripple rep autos Myrmidon and double rep blaster Hype.

End of story? -Armor cane blew up when both ships were dead, what happened after is another story (15man gang jumped in and of course we got ass kicked) but the bottom line is that a equivalent skill piloting active armor rep is crap.

Of course you can see a lot of videos with dudes standing still like ducks and see a single triple rep whatsoever hull kill them all, in fact in most of those vids you can see at some point when someone has the experience the guy always or mostly gets to warp off with a nice vid message "time to move out" yadayada.

Active armor rep for pvp is crap, buffer tank makes them ducks and the only doctrine that still works is abbadons because tank is naturally gimp thx to ship resistance bonus, take that away and the last viable armor fleet comp will die.

brb
Protector X
State War Academy
Caldari State
#29 - 2012-06-21 18:03:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Protector X
If anyone reading this fails to note that armor tanking needs obvious improvements, then please do yourself a favor and dont post, because you are ********, and you proably have never flown active armor tanks ships.

If i knew how to quote i would, but someone said that its a bad sign when you find armor tanking ships shield tanking. That right there is a RED flag that something is wrong.

+1 to OP with Ancillary Armor Reps, it needs to be done.

As it is, this is the major differences between active shield tanking compared to armor tanking.

Shield Tanks
- Faster
- More Dps
- More Self Rep Defense
- LESS Midslots Utility

Armor Tanks
-Slower
-Less Dps
-Less Self Rep Defense
- MORE midslot Utilty


Considering that on any PVP ship you NEED at least 2 slots for a MWD and Point, considering that shield tanks can accomadate 2 slots to this as well as the neccesary Cap Booster and still have a superior tank over an armor tank - the armor tank IS sub-par.

I dont know about you, but i'd rather fly a Sleipner or Maelstrom over an Astarte or Hyperion anyday, in any situation, its just the smarter choice.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#30 - 2012-06-21 19:46:09 UTC
To give active tanks a nice, free buffer, especially for Gallente, change armor repairers to repair hull, as well. The repair rate would still be lower, but with a big hull and a DCII you'd have some staying power.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#31 - 2012-06-21 22:31:49 UTC
Protector X wrote:
If anyone reading this fails to note that armor tanking needs obvious improvements, then please do yourself a favor and dont post, because you are ********, and you proably have never flown active armor tanks ships.

If i knew how to quote i would, but someone said that its a bad sign when you find armor tanking ships shield tanking. That right there is a RED flag that something is wrong.


If anyone reading this fails to note that armor tanking is different to shield tanking and neither really need any improvements, then please do us all a favour and dont post, because you are ********, and you probably only fly armour tanks ships.

Having said that, there are shield-tank ships that often fit armor tanks, is this a red flag as well? Does shield tanking need a boost because of this?

Some ships can be tanked either way. There are pros and cons for doing either. Take for example the Harbinger. You can fit an armor tank, so it has more staying power, but it is slower and has less DPS. Or you can fit a shield tank to get more DPS and more speed... but you'll be paper thin.

It is a trade-off thing. You want to have your armor and rep it too.
Blastil
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#32 - 2012-06-22 22:44:18 UTC
We can sit around and quote specific situations back and forth to eachother, but that doesn't change the fact that those situations are specific, and you should NEVER effect a nerf/boost based on specific examples.

What IS a fact, and indisputable is the fact that no one flies viable armor fleets in small gang warfare. DPS is far too important in small gang warfare to allow armor tanking to have room. Passive armor does well and SOME ships do well with an active tank, but there is a serious disconnect between 'some ships' and 'just about everyone'.

Armor tanking IS powerful. but it is the underdog of the tanking world by a long shot.

I realize my mistake is in making a specific suggestion, however, I think this issue CANNOT be ignored by CCP, there should be a serious look at the viability of active armor tanking, and the associated ships/races that rely on it. Whatever the solution, there should be one.
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