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Faction Warfare: or How I learned to AFK in a frigate

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Author
Lucia Denniard
Half Empty
skill urself
#1 - 2012-06-20 22:53:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucia Denniard
Confederation of xXPIZZAXx recently joined Faction Warfare. Initially, we believed that recent changes had made for a better PVP experience, but we quickly encountered problems.

#1 - The ease of running both defensive and offensive plexes solo, using low sp afterburner frigates makes flipping and defending systems impractical for larger, PVP oriented gangs. Forming a fleet to run individual plexes is pointless; fights are not forced.

#2 - Defensive plexing is risk free and needs no real investment. A t1 frigate alt can defensive plex with impunity, faces no immediate threat, and ship losses are trivial. This only serves to stymie the rate at which systems come under threat, and fighting for these systems.

#3 - Plex behaviour is unpredictable. Plexes spawn and de-spawn in an inconsistent fashion, can fail to award lp, and can stack to huge numbers in specific systems.

#4 - Acceleration gates favour ‘camping’ behaviours and limit the viability of long range fleets.

#5 - Reward tier disparity. A Slicer at tier 1 costs 40kLP, 2.5kLP at tier 5, and pilots gain LP at a 20% increased rate at tier 5. Pilots may simply play both sides of the war, using alts, for personal profit; faction loyalty isn’t incentivised. This further serves to stagnate the progress of system conquest.

#6 - Reward disparity. The Amarr LP store itself contains fewer high demand ships and modules than the Minmatar LP store. This is a minor issue, and mostly the fault of the larger EVE sandbox. But is an issue nonetheless.

As a small gang PVPer, I feel that faction warfare has too much emphasis on alts, incentivising low risk play with LP, and fails to offer enough opportunities for fleet combat. Ultimately, Faction Warfare is still focused on a PVE metagame.

Any constructive comments regarding these issues would be appreciated.
Wirty Dhore
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2012-06-20 22:55:07 UTC
As a female small gang PVPer I support this as well.
zero9300
Perkone
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-06-20 22:57:45 UTC
As a female small gang PVPer I agree on all points.
Vordak Kallager
New Order Outreach Division
CODE.
#4 - 2012-06-20 23:00:22 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Dosnix
*snip*

EDIT: Off-topic posts cleared
ISD Dosnix

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.

Aldrith Shutaq
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#5 - 2012-06-20 23:09:47 UTC
See here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=121960

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu

Garrus Calby
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2012-06-20 23:11:27 UTC
As a bona fide space liberal I feel that the misogynistic and tyrannic system known as faction warfare is keeping strong independent womyn down and only aiding the ultra masculine minmatar and leaving the sleek feministic amarr in the space dirt. And as a minmatar pilot I apologize on behave of my race's faction warfare militia for these crimes against female small gang PVPers and equality as a whole.
420rainbowdash1488xxx
Doomheim
#7 - 2012-06-20 23:16:11 UTC
Vordak Kallager wrote:
Fweddit > PIZZA, tbh. Maybe you guys should just go back to farming nullbears.


if faction warfare really is just a ratting contest, then we have no interest in continuing with it. in nullsec there are incentives to fight, and ways to punish people for not fighting your gangs. i don't want to bully my members to go out ratting solo for monopoly money that might be worth something one day, in the vain hope that maybe we can rat more than our enemies and their alts, so that maybe they will fight us over an ihub. **** that.SadSadSadSadSadSad
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Villore Accords
#8 - 2012-06-20 23:23:09 UTC
Lucia Denniard wrote:
#4 - Acceleration gates favour ‘camping’ behaviours and limit the viability of long range fleets.


Actually, IMO plexes favour long range nano fleets over short range. Why? because warping is not allowed within complexes nor outside on the acceleration gate!

Consider the following scenarios:

a) You are in the plex first: You set up at range, you pummel the opposition as it comes in. If you can maintain your range, the enemy can't even get a warpin on you.

b) You are not in the plex first, however the enemy fleet is. If you have a fleet and not just a few guys, there's a decent chance you can get in, only lose a few on the warpin and get your range advantage.

c) The acceleration gate itself is a fantastic place to place a ranged fleet, same reasons as a).
Della Monk
Monastery of Drakes
#9 - 2012-06-20 23:27:13 UTC
chatgris wrote:
Lucia Denniard wrote:
#4 - Acceleration gates favour ‘camping’ behaviours and limit the viability of long range fleets.


Actually, IMO plexes favour long range nano fleets over short range. Why? because warping is not allowed within complexes nor outside on the acceleration gate!

Consider the following scenarios:

a) You are in the plex first: You set up at range, you pummel the opposition as it comes in. If you can maintain your range, the enemy can't even get a warpin on you.

b) You are not in the plex first, however the enemy fleet is. If you have a fleet and not just a few guys, there's a decent chance you can get in, only lose a few on the warpin and get your range advantage.

c) The acceleration gate itself is a fantastic place to place a ranged fleet, same reasons as a).


If sitting at range in a sniper fit waiting for prey to land at your optimal isn't camping I don't know what is
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Villore Accords
#10 - 2012-06-20 23:29:06 UTC
Della Monk wrote:
chatgris wrote:
Lucia Denniard wrote:
#4 - Acceleration gates favour ‘camping’ behaviours and limit the viability of long range fleets.


Actually, IMO plexes favour long range nano fleets over short range. Why? because warping is not allowed within complexes nor outside on the acceleration gate!

Consider the following scenarios:

a) You are in the plex first: You set up at range, you pummel the opposition as it comes in. If you can maintain your range, the enemy can't even get a warpin on you.

b) You are not in the plex first, however the enemy fleet is. If you have a fleet and not just a few guys, there's a decent chance you can get in, only lose a few on the warpin and get your range advantage.

c) The acceleration gate itself is a fantastic place to place a ranged fleet, same reasons as a).


If sitting at range in a sniper fit waiting for prey to land at your optimal isn't camping I don't know what is


I bolded the relevant part I was referring to the viability of long range fleets: Camping happens everywhere in eve: gates, stations and plexes and isn't an issue I address in this post.
White Tree
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-06-20 23:33:43 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Dosnix
*snip*

Edit: Off-topic posts cleared
ISD Dosnix

Former member of CSM6.

Vordak Kallager
New Order Outreach Division
CODE.
#12 - 2012-06-20 23:40:09 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Dosnix
*snip*

Edit: Off-topic posts cleared
ISD Dosnix

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.

zero9300
Perkone
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-06-20 23:41:04 UTC  |  Edited by: zero9300
chatgris wrote:
Lucia Denniard wrote:
#4 - Acceleration gates favour ‘camping’ behaviours and limit the viability of long range fleets.


Actually, IMO plexes favour long range nano fleets over short range. Why? because warping is not allowed within complexes nor outside on the acceleration gate!

Consider the following scenarios:

a) You are in the plex first: You set up at range, you pummel the opposition as it comes in. If you can maintain your range, the enemy can't even get a warpin on you.

b) You are not in the plex first, however the enemy fleet is. If you have a fleet and not just a few guys, there's a decent chance you can get in, only lose a few on the warpin and get your range advantage.

c) The acceleration gate itself is a fantastic place to place a ranged fleet, same reasons as a).

I actually agree with you, and in practice, we were able to get our fleet burned out to range while taking minimal losses, but soon after the first SFI died to our caracal fleet, they simply buggered off. Whatever was left behind to tackle was eaten up shortly after.

We held field, and if they tried to warp back in with that same gang, they would be further disadvantaged by the fact that we have the initial range dictation, a strong disincentive to even try to fight the long range fleet once it is in the site.
But what did that mean? We got to sit on a PVE site for 37mins to take our 0.7% of one of the 70 systems in the amarr-minmatar FW zone, and we wouldn't even be given a proper brawl over it because who in their right mind would warp to the optimals of our ships?
It is not conductive to ~fun~
zero9300
Perkone
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-06-20 23:43:14 UTC  |  Edited by: zero9300
Vordak Kallager wrote:
White Tree wrote:
Vordak Kallager wrote:
Fweddit > PIZZA, tbh. Maybe you guys should just go back to farming nullbears.

Hey, yo, shut up.


Lol. I have not been impressed with PIZZA's performance in the Min/Amarr warzone, from a purely PvP stand point. vOv

citation needed

edit: wait, since when was this a thread about PIZZA and not about the inherent boring bullshit in FW?
420rainbowdash1488xxx
Doomheim
#15 - 2012-06-20 23:43:16 UTC  |  Edited by: 420rainbowdash1488xxx
Vordak Kallager wrote:
White Tree wrote:
Vordak Kallager wrote:
Fweddit > PIZZA, tbh. Maybe you guys should just go back to farming nullbears.

Hey, yo, shut up.


Lol. I have not been impressed with PIZZA's performance in the Min/Amarr warzone, from a purely PvP stand point. vOv


well we can make minmatar militia avoid fighting us pretty easily, whatever that accomplishes. (which is absolutely nothing, btw)
Lucia Denniard
Half Empty
skill urself
#16 - 2012-06-20 23:58:46 UTC
Well, here are my thoughts for the evening, what if Faction Warfare worked like Incursions, and you earned LP into a pool which paid out when the system flipped? That'd encourage actually taking systems and offensively plexing in systems you intend to take.

My other thought is that complexes should be done in groups, so you could either crank up the rat difficulty, or just hold people there until the rats have died. Scram/web rats would work pretty well, holding down players for extended periods, leaving them open to possible PVP situations.

Any and all crazy ideas are appreciated.
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Villore Accords
#17 - 2012-06-21 00:02:51 UTC  |  Edited by: chatgris
Lucia Denniard wrote:
My other thought is that complexes should be done in groups, so you could either crank up the rat difficulty, or just hold people there until the rats have died. Scram/web rats would work pretty well, holding down players for extended periods, leaving them open to possible PVP situations.


This I strongly oppose: Factional warfare is differentiated from null in that dispersed solo work is more valuable than big fleet fights in determining who wins. If you want fleet warfare, null is the place for it. FW actually provides incentives to disperse and run small gangs/solo rather than who can form the biggest blob and win.
Mai Amarr Waifu
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2012-06-21 00:09:47 UTC
chatgris wrote:
Lucia Denniard wrote:
My other thought is that complexes should be done in groups, so you could either crank up the rat difficulty, or just hold people there until the rats have died. Scram/web rats would work pretty well, holding down players for extended periods, leaving them open to possible PVP situations.


This I strongly oppose: Factional warfare is differentiated from null in that dispersed solo work is more valuable than big fleet fights in determining who wins. If you want fleet warfare, null is the place for it. FW actually provides incentives to disperse and run small gangs/solo rather than who can form the biggest blob and win.


For groups that size in the 3000+ member range each side should be able to field 50 guys, surely?

The fact is, there's no reason to fight, since it's entirely based on the simple meta game of getting the most alts into running sites as you can at the same time in t1 junk frigates to farm LP on whatever side has the best LP store.

Pretty much everyone knows this in faction war, and the only people who seem to have a problem with a change in the system is those who stand to lose from not being able to exploit the ****** game mechanics where ccp puts AFK-pseudo pve in front of PVP, when the whole point of FW is supposed to be PVP.

Or are you the kind of person who thinks meaningless '1v1's with 2 boosting alts and a cloaked falcon is the pinnacle of lowsec pvp?
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Villore Accords
#19 - 2012-06-21 00:26:46 UTC  |  Edited by: chatgris
Mai Amarr Waifu wrote:

For groups that size in the 3000+ member range each side should be able to field 50 guys, surely?


50 guys is still a blob IMO. I far prefer the 2-5 man gangs myself. Which have a purpose in fw. I DO NOT WANT to be stuck in a fleet to play my game: That's why I do not and never intend to live in nullsec.

Mai Amarr Waifu wrote:

The fact is, there's no reason to fight, since it's entirely based on the simple meta game of getting the most alts into running sites as you can at the same time in t1 junk frigates to farm LP on whatever side has the best LP store.


Which is a far preferable situation than one where I am forced to sit in a fleet all day to play the game.

Mai Amarr Waifu wrote:

Pretty much everyone knows this in faction war, and the only people who seem to have a problem with a change in the system is those who stand to lose from not being able to exploit the ****** game mechanics where ccp puts AFK-pseudo pve in front of PVP, when the whole point of FW is supposed to be PVP.


A change in the system is great: killing all rats for example is an almost universally proposed solution to slow down the afk frigate farmers. A change in the system that turns this into blob warfare is not. Right now people already blob to avoid risk: At least the mechanics of the game (how plex LP is split up among those on the button, LP split on kills and occupancy) provide some incentive to move away from the natural "safety in numbers" that eve tends to move towards.

If you want a system that is geared towards fleet pvp, then my gosh there is a LOT of eve waiting for you. Go enjoy it, don't try to make everything in eve need a 20, 30, 50 man blob.

Mai Amarr Waifu wrote:

Or are you the kind of person who thinks meaningless '1v1's with 2 boosting alts and a cloaked falcon is the pinnacle of lowsec pvp?


I have one boosting alt, and I don't bother to drag it around with me when I'm roaming solo with with a friend or two. I do bring it for fleets. I do sometimes bring it out when I find myself significantly outnumbered. I also tend to ditch it when things change and I end up with greater numbers etc. Please, find the last kill of mine which is just me and a falcon. You'll be looking a long long ways back.

And if you want to start epeening about killboards and solo-ing and lowsec do please post with your main. It sounds like you're a nullbear to me, afraid to roam without your fleet and logis trailing along. (At least I make these accusations without even knowing your main, unlike your post above).
Duke Dantez
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2012-06-21 00:35:54 UTC
Lucia Denniard wrote:
Well, here are my thoughts for the evening, what if Faction Warfare worked like Incursions, and you earned LP into a pool which paid out when the system flipped? That'd encourage actually taking systems and offensively plexing in systems you intend to take.

My other thought is that complexes should be done in groups, so you could either crank up the rat difficulty, or just hold people there until the rats have died. Scram/web rats would work pretty well, holding down players for extended periods, leaving them open to possible PVP situations.

Any and all crazy ideas are appreciated.

Absolutely horrible idea!!

Isk hungry carebears will always figure out a way to out-wit the NPCs. Making the rats harder to kill and with more Ewar will only decrease the amount of small scale pvp and especially a lot of the 1v1s that happen in and around plexes. And you wont get rid of the smart carebear who figured out the trick to minimize effort whilst alone in a plex.

Go to high sec if you want incursions. the whole point of the plex is to generate pvp first and a stepping stone to flipping a system second.
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