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Making nullsec vibrant again

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Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#341 - 2012-06-20 18:18:39 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Malphilos wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
you seem to think that nerfing jump bridges would kill off large nullsec blocs, allow small alliances to settle in nullsec and magically fix the game


At least we're settled on the fact that the mega-blocks are the problem.

Unfortunately there's probably no real way around that as things stand.

First of all, it's blocs, not blocks.

Second of all, it's not "the problem", "the problem" is that "the megablocs" have no proper casus belli to go to war against eachother.


Thanks for the spell check, my admin's out.

What you've identified is the claimed source of boredom (pretty well documented) for the major alliances.

I'm at least a little skeptical about that given the parallel claims that all the fighting is just for fun. Those claims seem to be counter to one another. If you're fighting for fun, there's always a reason. If you're not, the "problem" is even bigger than it seems.

And as I said before, I'm not sure it can be resolved as things stand.
Tenchi Sal
White Knights of Equestria
#342 - 2012-06-20 18:19:05 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:


So you don't have an idea on how to make scanning a whole region multiple times a year not suck dicks, but you're going to push for it anyways?

And I suppose you're definitely not going to whine about how T2 prices are skyrocketing because people just can't be arsed to find them anymore. Right?


i still think you dont understand how professions work in this game.

you dont have to be the one mining the asteroids.
you dont have to be the one ratting.
you dont have to be the one trading.
you dont have to be the one doing missions.
you dont have to be the one doing exploration sites.
you dont have to be the one upping standings for corps to sell.

i can go on but you get the point. there will be profit in it. people will load up their covert ops/blockade runners with moon probes and go find those moons. sell their locations to others, the same way lots of other third party services work. you can go about doing your normal thing and buy the information. you can scan them down and profit from selling their locations.

if you are part of a giant 0.0 alliance, you can assign different people to different constellations. you can even assign serveral people to the same area to compare and see who might be lying. a tech moon just spawned on the boarder between you and your neighbor, whom you dont like so well but its on his side? guess what might just happen!
Kieron VonDeux
#343 - 2012-06-20 18:20:12 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
fun fact: even if force projection was nerfed, the last thing we'd allow to happen is some small alliance setting up near our space - we'd purge them immediately considering that they'd collapse under the threat of an invasion by one of our enemies


so yes, small alliances establishing themselves as sov-holding entities is a dumb fantasy



In the current environment, yes.

But hopfully once CCP gets a grasp on the situation, they will realize that that is in fact the problem. That is one thing that is keeping so many people out of Nullsec.

Reducing the range of influence of the larger organizations will allow smallers ones to take hold in far more areas.
Kind of like why you trim the canopy of a large tree in order for smallers ones to grow closer to its base.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#344 - 2012-06-20 18:21:40 UTC
small nobodies getting squashed is the point of 0.0 not a flaw

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#345 - 2012-06-20 18:22:03 UTC
Kieron VonDeux wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
fun fact: even if force projection was nerfed, the last thing we'd allow to happen is some small alliance setting up near our space - we'd purge them immediately considering that they'd collapse under the threat of an invasion by one of our enemies


so yes, small alliances establishing themselves as sov-holding entities is a dumb fantasy



In the current environment, yes.

But hopfully once CCP gets a grasp on the situation, they will realize that that is in fact the problem. That is one thing that is keeping so many people out of Nullsec.

Reducing the range of influence of the larger organizations will allow smallers ones to take hold in far more areas.
Kind of like why you trim the canopy of a large tree in order for smallers ones to grow closer to its base.


There is no change CCP could make to give small alliances a fighting chance against massive ones, especially when the large alliance determines that the smaller one would just be the lowest common denominator (i.e. the first ones their enemies would knock out) in the case of a proper invasion.

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#346 - 2012-06-20 18:22:06 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Kieron VonDeux wrote:

Judging how much somebody had been in nullsec based upon the single character they happen to be posting with has always been folly.

much like anyone who discusses how nice the air is on the moon can be safely assumed to have never gone there, so too can anyone who claims jbs are used for force protection be safely assumed never to have been in nullsec


Just because spell checking seems to be all the rage: I think it's force projection, as in logistics and forward basing.

Stuff that no one would ever use JBs for.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#347 - 2012-06-20 18:22:40 UTC
while it would be good for there to be a way an alliance can grow and evolve into something useful by restoring the old r64 balance your tiny corp of you and two friends will still always get stomped, as it should

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#348 - 2012-06-20 18:24:21 UTC
Malphilos wrote:
Just because spell checking seems to be all the rage: I think it's force projection, as in logistics and forward basing.

Stuff that no one would ever use JBs for.

i can't spell, unfortunately, you are quite correct

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Rer Eirikr
The Scope
#349 - 2012-06-20 18:25:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Rer Eirikr
Kieron VonDeux wrote:
Reducing the range of influence of the larger organizations will allow smallers ones to take hold in far more areas.
Kind of like why you trim the canopy of a large tree in order for smallers ones to grow closer to its base.


No, no it really wouldn't Straight I'm not trying to be cynical here but every single time its been tried, they've either become pets to the big boys or squashed. JBs existence would have no bearing on this.
Riedle
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#350 - 2012-06-20 18:28:06 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Kieron VonDeux wrote:

Judging how much somebody had been in nullsec based upon the single character they happen to be posting with has always been folly.

much like anyone who discusses how nice the air is on the moon can be safely assumed to have never gone there, so too can anyone who claims jbs are used for force protection be safely assumed never to have been in nullsec


oh is this the part where we compare epeens?

(Side note - JC I hope you frothing at the mouth guys are posting with alts)

look the question was asked and I gave my thoughts on the answer and one of my thoughts on the answer is the nerfing of JB's. There is nothing from the venom spewed my way to make me think that nerfing JB's isn't part of the answer but I never claimed it was the whole answer.

Not sure why you guys have to froth at the mouth about it, but I guess you like to forum warrior or something. I have spent just about my whole time in 0.0 for what's that worth but really, my suggestion was in nerfing JB's to make force projection more difficult. It would make it more difficult - no question. It would also have other secondary effects of discouraging NAPFESTS as well but a few of you Goonies don't like the suggestion. lol That is fine. I never claimed it was the whole answer but I do believe it is part of it.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#351 - 2012-06-20 18:29:10 UTC
Kieron VonDeux wrote:
In the current environment, yes.

But hopfully once CCP gets a grasp on the situation, they will realize that that is in fact the problem. That is one thing that is keeping so many people out of Nullsec.

Reducing the range of influence of the larger organizations will allow smallers ones to take hold in far more areas.
Kind of like why you trim the canopy of a large tree in order for smallers ones to grow closer to its base.

There is no environment that is going to let some tiny alliance establish and hold some sort of hermit kingdom in 0.0, bar converting all of nullsec completely into wormhole space.

Now, the Southern Coalition consists of literally dozens of small alliances (60-80) and some large ones that have reached agreements and understandings with their neighbors that allow them to operate on a day-to-day basis, either by diplomacy, contributing to wars, or just plain rental payments. So yes, being a small alliance breaking into 0.0 is very doable. However there is no way, ever, that anyone big or small in 0.0 can operate in a vacuum, which is what I suspect is what you actually want.
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#352 - 2012-06-20 18:30:16 UTC
Riedle wrote:
It would also have other secondary effects of discouraging NAPFESTS


What's your evidence for this claim?

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#353 - 2012-06-20 18:31:11 UTC
I have not been able to read all of this thread yet as I am at work. I am looking forward to reading the rest in its entirety. I have read the first 10-ish pages and think that we are actually having a constructive discussion about these issues and I think that is a good thing. I would encourage everyone to continue being constructive. By all means, state your opinions and do so in a constructive way. I am very encouraged by a lot of the posts and discussion taking place here. Don't mind me, just ****ing off at work. Please continue. Big smile

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Rer Eirikr
The Scope
#354 - 2012-06-20 18:31:31 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Riedle wrote:
It would also have other secondary effects of discouraging NAPFESTS


What's your evidence for this claim?


His idea was that if you guys "can't jump out 40 jumps to bash some POS" that you would inevitably either start to fight one another or a closer neighbor.

To which most of us have responded with the words "Capitals", or "Deployments", or "Forward Staging POSes".
Riedle
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#355 - 2012-06-20 18:31:36 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
while it would be good for there to be a way an alliance can grow and evolve into something useful by restoring the old r64 balance your tiny corp of you and two friends will still always get stomped, as it should


You are boxing with shadows. I made no such suggestion and I agree with you.
Riedle
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#356 - 2012-06-20 18:32:50 UTC
Rer Eirikr wrote:
Kieron VonDeux wrote:
Reducing the range of influence of the larger organizations will allow smallers ones to take hold in far more areas.
Kind of like why you trim the canopy of a large tree in order for smallers ones to grow closer to its base.


No, no it really wouldn't Straight I'm not trying to be cynical here but every single time its been tried, they've either become pets to the big boys or squashed. JBs existence would have no bearing on this.


After the first JB nerf it was the first time I saw a non-aligned SOV Holding Alliance take some space in my 0.0 neighbourhood.

I don't think it was a coincidence.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#357 - 2012-06-20 18:32:59 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Riedle wrote:
It would also have other secondary effects of discouraging NAPFESTS


What's your evidence for this claim?

Oh man, those guys are attacking our flank where it would be a real pain in the ass for us to redeploy to, I better not blue the nearby guys to help defend it because
Cameron Cahill
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#358 - 2012-06-20 18:34:48 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Kieron VonDeux wrote:
In the current environment, yes.

But hopfully once CCP gets a grasp on the situation, they will realize that that is in fact the problem. That is one thing that is keeping so many people out of Nullsec.

Reducing the range of influence of the larger organizations will allow smallers ones to take hold in far more areas.
Kind of like why you trim the canopy of a large tree in order for smallers ones to grow closer to its base.

There is no environment that is going to let some tiny alliance establish and hold some sort of hermit kingdom in 0.0, bar converting all of nullsec completely into wormhole space.

Now, the Southern Coalition consists of literally dozens of small alliances (60-80) and some large ones that have reached agreements and understandings with their neighbors that allow them to operate on a day-to-day basis, either by diplomacy, contributing to wars, or just plain rental payments. So yes, being a small alliance breaking into 0.0 is very doable. However there is no way, ever, that anyone big or small in 0.0 can operate in a vacuum, which is what I suspect is what you actually want.


Listen to this guy, he knows what he's talking about. Even if he is a slumlord ;P
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#359 - 2012-06-20 18:34:59 UTC
Tenchi Sal wrote:
i still think you dont understand how professions work in this game.

you dont have to be the one mining the asteroids.
you dont have to be the one ratting.
you dont have to be the one trading.
you dont have to be the one doing missions.
you dont have to be the one doing exploration sites.
you dont have to be the one upping standings for corps to sell.

i can go on but you get the point. there will be profit in it. people will load up their covert ops/blockade runners with moon probes and go find those moons. sell their locations to others, the same way lots of other third party services work. you can go about doing your normal thing and buy the information. you can scan them down and profit from selling their locations.

if you are part of a giant 0.0 alliance, you can assign different people to different constellations. you can even assign serveral people to the same area to compare and see who might be lying. a tech moon just spawned on the boarder between you and your neighbor, whom you dont like so well but its on his side? guess what might just happen!

I know perfectly well how they work, I've done it multiple times. It still doesn't change the fact that moving moon goo around randomly at 3-6 month intervals is a bad idea.

1) tons of moons would be ignored because their content isn't worth enough to go kill a tower over.
2) tons of moons wouldn't be mined because they're towered by someone else who aren't paying attention or just flat out don't give a **** about moongoo
3) the moon scanners will slit their wrists
4) the POS guys will slit their wrists
5) everyone'll ***** and moan even more about how expensive all things T2 are.

Now, I've no idea why you keep harping on about how "I will not have to do it", it's like I'm supposed to be unable to see a bad mechanic when I see it. vOv

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Riedle
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#360 - 2012-06-20 18:35:06 UTC
Rer Eirikr wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
Riedle wrote:
It would also have other secondary effects of discouraging NAPFESTS


What's your evidence for this claim?


His idea was that if you guys "can't jump out 40 jumps to bash some POS" that you would inevitably either start to fight one another or a closer neighbor.

To which most of us have responded with the words "Capitals", or "Deployments", or "Forward Staging POSes".


And to which I responded that no JB's would still make it more difficult and that I never offered it as the final answer, but it is part of it.

Been GOON RAGE ever since. lol