Intergalactic Summit

I think it's absurd to argue that certain people aren't born with intrinsic advantages over others, whether that be he advantage of huge inherited and unearned wealth, or genetic advantages. Not everyone is born equal.

What the Federation purports to provide is equality of opportunity, so that the newest Matari migrant has as much chance of becoming President as wealthy individual born on Gallente Prime.

However, left to the devices of the Nationists that would never be the case.

The question is one of clarity. God's will, to be fair, is by definition only know by God. Ask a follower of Sani Sabik what God wills, or a member of the Equilibrium the same. Ask a former slave, raised among Amarr and told she too had a place as Chosen, if only she would fight without question.

God's will is not, in fact, clear.

That's beside the point though. It is a logical fallacy. That's the problem with much of what Seriphyn Inhonores' initial position is; How do you debate a view that does not rely on logic but blind ideology?

Let's look at the reasoning, shall we? "Every child is born equal, and nations are irrelevant. Therefore, my nation is the best since we encompass the greatest amount of national diversity, and you will all accept it once you are also part of my nation."

How can this be deconstructed and either refuted or supported? I personally do not agree with it, but not on the basis of ideology. It is a wonderful ideal, but ignorant. The same reasoning is used by many nations. It's easy to want it to be the truth. It also creates a solid, immovable line; "I believe this, and anyone who does not is unreasonable."

See, that's the danger. Nationalism at it's darkest. "We are good, and not only are we good but others would benefit from our enlightenment. Therefore we must show them their error."

It's a horribly seductive fallacy. It's hard to fight, because we want to be on the right side.

Seriphyn is a good person. So are all of you who oppose him. Ideology is what stands in the way. Nationalism is in fact a separator, but only because we make it a separator. We are all brothers and sisters, regardless of birth. We all exist. We all wish to be free to do what we wish.
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How about this. I believe in the spirit of Seriphyn Inhonores' post. I do not agree with the idea that uniting under the Federation is the only path to move forward. I do not agree with the basis for his views, and hope that he continues to find enlightenment. I further hope that others are not persuaded into following the extreme views that Seriphyn shares on a regular basis.

Hopefully that made some sense.

-N.R.

Seeing as it's already been pointed out that decrying nationalism while trumpeting the Federation is somewhat contradictory I'll go ahead and leave that bit alone.

There are some points you've raised, Seriphyn, that are open to some contention. I'm not sure the average child born in the State is considered property of one of the corporations. In fact, and by all means someone stop me if I'm wrong, but it is generally good business sense to have legally binding paperwork regarding every asset a company can own, and while I have never seen a freshly made birth certificate for a Caldari child, I doubt it bears the phrase "Property of (Insert Corporation Name Here)"

Similarly the notion that the voluval mark is some sort of marker of inescapable destiny, is in a word, wrong. While I'm willing to concede some families and clans might put more extreme amounts of emphasis on the voluval mark and it's influence on a person's life, it has never been described to me as something that dictates a person's path in life. In fact from all the conversations I've had about the voluval, I'm led to believe it serves as essentially a sign. Signs do not dictate, they suggest. Just as you do not have to actually heed various traffic signs, you do not have to heed the voluval mark. However not heeding either can yield unexpected results.

Moving on; I would rather love to see a united cluster. I think a united mankind would be capable of so much more than the sum of all the things we accomplish while divided up as we are today. I do not believe the Federation is capable of uniting humanity. The Federation's greatest advantage, it's embraced diversity, is also it's greatest weakness in any pursuit of true united rule. Simply put, the Federation has no singular purpose or ideal to hold onto and use to spur that sort of conquest even if it were a peaceful one, which it won't be.

I don't believe the State could ever unify humanity either. The State seems to have no desire to force any sort of Caldarification on the universe. In it's own way the State embraces those vaunted "Gallente" ideals moreso than the Federation, in that the State doesn't feel any compulsion to force other cultures to adopt Caldari values and methodology.

Similarly I don't believe the Republic could unite humanity. The Matari seem to understand and accept that there will always be large enough differences to prompt people to not want to identify with their neighbors. Also, like the State, the Republic doesn't want to force tribal and clan customs on other cultures.

I also don't believe the Empire is capable of uniting mankind. Oh the Empire certainly has the singular driving purpose to rally behind, it's faith. But faith alone isn't enough and eventually the divisive tendencies of human nature reach their critical points. For the Empire those critical points manifest as great schisms within the faith itself, and if you thought you've seen over zealous Amarrian fanatics before, just imagine what sorts will pop up when a schism threatens to tear a nearly united humanity in half.

The truth of the matter is none of the four major empires are capable of uniting humanity under one banner, and as such the debate over which one of those four is more "right" than the others is entirely pointless.

Something foreigners with more "diverse" systems can have a difficult time fully understanding is that in the Empire there is no practical difference between the government and the religion. The Empire might have separate offices of state but the two permeate each other and derive their powers from each other in such a tangled manor that they are essentially one in the same. They could not survive without each other in any recognizable format.

Pluralistic societies like the Federation can certainly have bits and pieces of chaff removed for little loss, but cutting the heart out of the Empire is another matter.

As much as I agree with your point, I must point out that however, the Empire does not live anymore under the Council of Apostles, so there is actually a practical difference, even if both are still intricated enough that they can not survive without each other unless the whole system changes in the process.

Preservation of separate cultures stands in direct opposition to guaranteeing every individual's right to choose their own identity, General Inhonores.

I was born a citizen of the Federation, in the medical bay of a Navy cruiser. Before I had even language to defend myself with, the creatures who made me had disfigured my face with "traditional Intaki markings". As soon as I was old enough to grasp the meaning of words I was told, repeatedly, that I had more in common with the people living on the surface of a certain lump of stone and filth in the Intaki system than I did with the ethnically Matari couple living just down the station corridor. It was hammered into my mind that these unsanitary primitives were "my people", and that my fellow station inhabitants were not - or at best, only to a lesser degree.

Ridding myself of those labels has been a long process, and I had to leave the Federation to do so. Not only to flush the entire Intaki identity garbage from my own mind, but even for other people to acknowledge that I had discarded it at all.

As long as the freedoms guaranteed by the Federation include the freedom of parents to culturally indoctrinate their children as they see fit, there is no freedom of identity.

I find it interesting that somebody who had the genetic markers to handle being a capsuleer gripes about no one being born "different".

First off, before saying I'm correct do be a dear and don't pile on your own words on top of mine as if I were agreeing with you. I did not say the Federation has the best chance of uniting the cluster. In this particular case the chances are irrelevant. There is a chance the Empress would invite me over for tea, but really does that mean I should keep my schedule open for that chance? No, of course not.

What you fail to realize is that the very notion of universal freedoms, rights, and opportunities aren't universal at all. It's simply a matter of differing indoctrination. You've been raised to believe the things the Federation promotes, ideologically, are part and parcel of being human and as such should be protected and enforced among all humans. That is as much indoctrination as you've pointed out happens among the State, Empire, and Republic.

Now, could the Caldari collectivize behind the Federation? Well the Caldari you see certainly could since you seem to see the Caldari as nothing but sheep in need of a different shepherd. However, and this is the important part, they do not want to. Saying the State is wrong and should just fold itself into the Federation, despite it not wanting to, is no different than the fanatical zeal of some of my fellow Amarrians that wish to enslave and subjugate the rest of humanity regardless of what the rest of humanity wants. Oh certainly it seems like a prettier sort of fanaticism, less outdated and archaic than religiously motivated fanaticism, but it is fanaticism all the same.

Ashaltiasten.

First, I'd like to remind my Khanid brethren, Math'ra Hiede, that while birth plays an important role as to where ones station in life is within the Empire, it's not the one and prime criterion for that. Where ones place is in life is determined not by genetics or pedigree - it's determined by God alone and it is for us to find out what His will is. Into which family one is born might be a good hint to God's plan for us, but it's not that God would be bound to such things.
I know that the Khanid kingdom is more secular in it's view on this, but that is a rather recent development and something that by far isn't how it is handled in the Empire.

As to the OP: The Gallente's universalism arises out of the notion that those who are equal in any respect are equal in all respects. This, though, is as much faulty reasoning as the claim that children aren't born anything. While you might be right that a child isn't born Gallente or Matari, this doesn't mean that this particular child isn't born Caldari or Amarr or whatever, as by necessity it is born to particular people, people who identify by particular culture, religion or whatever. Universalism will take you only so far, you'll have to see that there a bounds to it.
I could go on to point out how you - apparently - misunderstand those cultures you're not part of, especially the Empire - for example on the role that age plays over here. I think it'll suffice though to state that you seem to lack in this department.

Faithfully,
N. Mithra