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Oh, how I hate collateral.
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Dardoign
Mine n Mellow
#21 - 2012-06-18 06:21:38 UTC
OMG I really miss this. When 20 mills was a fortune and you would risk your ass to make a million.
Players dream of the day when they have 50 mill SP's plus.
Usually by then the excitement has died and rather than playing the game they are in the forums waiting for news on when CCP are going to fix their latest brilliant, unwanted brainwave.
Beckie DeLey
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2012-06-18 07:08:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Beckie DeLey
sabre906 wrote:
Why don't you just do npc courier missions? They pay better.Lol

Player courier contracts, like Jita local, exist only as scams, and are not worth reading through.


This.

There's a point in the life of every industrialist when he realizes that there's basically no need for him to carry stuff from A to B unles sit can be done in a frigate. People value their time so low that there's always someone willing to ship all your crap from Rens to Jita for a few millions, possibly even in multiple trips, all the while taking the risk of the transport.

Quite interesting, really. I have no idea why anyone would want to do this to himself.


If you want to make a living of hauling, consider looking into cloaky transports and start up gunrunning into low and null. A lot of your profit will come from trading skills, market research, buying low and selling high. By that point, you are really more of a trader than a hauler, but that's the closest hauling related profession you can get into if you actually want to get somewhere. Stop caring about courier contracts and let the market dictate where you go and ferry your stuff. This way you can at least reap the rewards of your work and not only the risks.

My siren's name is Brick and she is the prettiest.
DeBingJos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2012-06-18 08:38:09 UTC
The collateral is higher than the value of the good you are transporting because otherwise you could just steal the stuff in the contract and make a profit. It is that simple. The guy making the contract is not scamming you, he is making sure you are not scamming him.

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
#24 - 2012-06-18 08:53:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Pak Narhoo
DeBingJos wrote:
The collateral is higher than the value of the good you are transporting because otherwise you could just steal the stuff in the contract and make a profit. It is that simple. The guy making the contract is not scamming you, he is making sure you are not scamming him.


Hmm, hmm, and that contract I saw yesterday in Amarr, 500mil payout, 3 bil collateral, needed a freighter or JF to move the goods, and ended up in low sec, sure that wasn't someone hoping to make a quick buck and pat his billboard with a freighter or JF kill?

It is always possible it wasn't, then again this is EVE.
Lol
Marcus Harikari
#25 - 2012-06-18 09:04:18 UTC
Why on earth are you doing this in a FRIGATE instead of an industrial ship?!?!?!
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#26 - 2012-06-18 09:07:35 UTC
Makkal Hanaya,

welcome to EvE, where demand and supply dictate pricing like a real, not drugged (like RL is) economy would do.

What you are seeing is the result of natural competition between haulers.
Most of them don't even do it for a true profit but just as a side income they may get while they haul their own stuff to a certain destination. They will just take the contracts that lead to the same place.

It's hard to compete against people who do this just to pad their otherwise unpaid hauling for their own stuff.

In order to "upgrade" you need a freighter or an agile ship (for small packs, high value) and then take a bulk of order at the same time, selecting those paying enough while still having a moderate collateral.

Even if you did have 3B, you should NOT pick those contracts up because either they are a bait to get you killed OR you will be scanned and killed on the way anyway.

With careful selection you can make 20-40M per session (I did), which is not a lot. But that's the life of the hauler, even in RL they are on the very low end of the supply - demand. They are low skill, easy entry point professions a la burger flipper and are paid as such.
If you want to become a professional hauler you indeed have to join the likes of Red Frog, Push and similar.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#27 - 2012-06-18 09:51:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Makkal Hanaya
Marcus Harikari wrote:
Why on earth are you doing this in a FRIGATE instead of an industrial ship?!?!?!

My frigate travels faster, aligns faster, and is harder to target than a Sigil. Moreover, it's not obviously something used to haul valuable items.

Why would I do this in an industrial instead of a frigate?

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.
Cebraio
4S Corporation
Goonswarm Federation
#28 - 2012-06-18 10:17:16 UTC
Yes, don't pick those contracts with extremely high collateral. They are usually scams that rely on you getting blown up.

I understand your interest in the profession. I also like to fly space trucks and would be happy if that was actually worth doing. Unfortunately the prices which are paid are not worth switching from any other profession in EVE.

Last weekend I've offered a contract with a fair 600m collateral and 100m reward. Got it delivered the next day. Cool Ok, maybe I overdid it with the reward, but it was delivery out of 0.0. Needed a jump freighter and in addition the person needed to have access to a player conquered station. I couldn't do it myself and I didn't want to see the contract rotting there, thus the high reward.

You see unless you have a freighter (or JF) there is rarely decent isk to make and the risk is always on your side. Good luck with it anyway!
Phugoid
Absolute Order XL
Absolute Honor
#29 - 2012-06-18 13:22:53 UTC
Hey Makkal......

Doing courier runs is ONE of the ways I make my Isks. I've actually have made at least 500mil in runs in just a few weeks time.

Anywaz, alot depends on the type of ship you want to use. Use the proper ship for the proper mission. When I do the occasional run into lo sec, I ONLY use the Viator. Since it can warp cloaky :) Only bad thing is that it can only hold about 10km3.

There are some things to look out for in certain contracts as to whether they may be a trap or not. If you havent already, make a quick warp to spot at all the major trading hubs. for example, at Ammar, u can warp away in a second or so if done right :)

My rule of thumb is to not do a run inwhich the collateral is more than 10% of my total ISKS. Thats as much as Im willing to risk
on any run. And it has to reward at the min. 200k per jump (more if you consider the return trip home) Lately most of the rewards have been between 4 and 10 mil.

Occasionally you will see some nice ones which reward between 12, up to 50 mil, tho rare. And on occasion, like you said you will get a Thank You. And on occasion an extra reward.
Also, if you do a run inwhich the issuer made an obvious mistake, say made the collateral way to low considering what you are transporting, instead of failing the contract and keeping the goodies, Ive made the delivery and told the issuer that I could have kept their stuff but didnt.. :) which resulted in a bonus of 50 mil for being honest.

You can make good Isks doing runs, but just dont make it your ONLY source of income. I have a few billion in ISKs atm, and I'd say about 50% of that has been made via courier runs. The rest in mining and missions.

Good Luck...happy hauling!

Flugzeugführer
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#30 - 2012-06-18 14:06:00 UTC
Makkal Hanaya wrote:


Last night, someone listed a package for 1.86 m at a 40m collateral located in a .2 system. I was literally shaking as I picked it up and took it to Jita. Hauling for players feels like playing a game of Russian roulette using a gun with 100 cylinders.


Exciting, wasn't it?
Cool

Congratulations - You're playing the game right: Taking risks, boldly going where few dare go, tempting fate.
Carry on!

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc
Russell Casey
Doomheim
#31 - 2012-06-18 14:22:56 UTC
Yeah...they're hoping to kill you and keep the collateral, fyi.
Merovee
Gorthaur Legion
Imperium Mordor
#32 - 2012-06-18 14:29:57 UTC
Makkal

Hauling is all about the risk, and it can be very fun to do. There is nothing wrong with it, I ratted for years for pennies in lowsec for the fun of it. Don't get trapped in the isk game, play for fun.

Empire, the next new world order.
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#33 - 2012-06-18 14:38:16 UTC
Russell Casey wrote:
Yeah...they're hoping to kill you and keep the collateral, fyi.

So - frequently, when you deliver on one of those lop-sided contracts, you're shafting a ganker. Twisted

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#34 - 2012-06-18 19:46:34 UTC
silens vesica wrote:
Russell Casey wrote:
Yeah...they're hoping to kill you and keep the collateral, fyi.

So - frequently, when you deliver on one of those lop-sided contracts, you're shafting a ganker. Twisted


It's even better with the contracts to Sov stations you have docking rights at. Accept it with a neutral alt, contract it to your main, return it and complete it. Enjoy trolling your blues.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
dontbanmebro
Doomheim
#35 - 2012-06-18 19:51:27 UTC
I put multi-billion collateral contracts up for a one or two million fee because I can and someone will take it.

You do not have an inalienable right to a profitable hauling business.
Pinstar Colton
Sweet Asteroid Acres
#36 - 2012-06-18 19:55:51 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Why don't you just do npc courier missions? They pay better.Lol

Player courier contracts, like Jita local, exist only as scams, and are not worth reading through.


Not all player contracts are scams, but plenty of them are.


NPC courier missions, on the other hand, are a good source of income. Nothing you'd ever want to build your EVE career on, mind you, but not bad. You can get into a ship that flies L4 distribution missions MUCH earlier than you could a combat ship that can solo L4 security missions.


A low sec Level 4 courier mission with negotiation IV and Dist Connections IV will pay about ~500k isk (provided you get the time reward) and ~1000 LP. The cargo is generally between 4000-8000m3 in size and the missions will send you anywhere from 2-8 jumps (this can vary depending on your agent and where you're running them). High sec dist missions pay less and are hair-tearingly boring. Low sec ups the rewards and keep things interesting with the occasional gate camp that you may or may not survive.

I personally just run them when I need to grind up rep with an NPC corp.

In the cat-and-mouse game that is low sec, there is no shame in learning to be a better mouse.

sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2012-06-18 20:01:51 UTC
silens vesica wrote:
Russell Casey wrote:
Yeah...they're hoping to kill you and keep the collateral, fyi.

So - frequently, when you deliver on one of those lop-sided contracts, you're shafting a ganker. Twisted


What does the scammer lose if you successfully deliver? The 1 mil isk reward?Lol
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#38 - 2012-06-18 20:10:58 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
silens vesica wrote:
Russell Casey wrote:
Yeah...they're hoping to kill you and keep the collateral, fyi.

So - frequently, when you deliver on one of those lop-sided contracts, you're shafting a ganker. Twisted


What does the scammer lose if you successfully deliver? The 1 mil isk reward?Lol


The better scams have ~20m rewards and go to sov null.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#39 - 2012-06-18 20:48:34 UTC
I sympathize, OP. When I create courier packages I try to pay at least 80~100K per jump in high-sec, especially if it's along a main corridor. It's still peanuts, but it's more than most contracts I've seen.

On some nights when I have the child (and she's being only slightly agreeable) and can only "one-arm" EVE, I log onto my indy alt and run packages in a nanoed Atron. The ISK is pretty **** but it passes the time. It's a hell of a lot more interesting than mining because you get to watch the scenery roll by and see who's camping which gates, etc... That's not exactly saying it's much fun, though...

My suggestion is to train up to cov ops (bonus: you can then fly SBs which gives you a fun PvP avenue) and run high value items from buy orders in choice low- and null-sec locations. Or, if you're extremely ballsy, try to beat the station and gate campers in hot spots buying their under-priced bait goods and selling them in trade-hubs for good profits (never tried this myself, but if you want some thrills without using guns...)

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
AFK Hauler
State War Academy
#40 - 2012-06-18 21:44:57 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
I use courier contracts almost daily to ship items all across EVE. I wouldn't even consider hauling anything around highsec myself, unless I need it right away. In the time it would take me to do the hauling I could make fifty times what I have to pay the hauler. Plus if I get blown up, my stuff is gone and I'm SOL. If a courier gets blown up, I get paid, and I make money.

There are two values input when creating the contract: the collateral and the reward.

The collateral depends only on the value of items I want shipped. It is a simple insurance - if you fail (willingly or not) to ship the contract, I don't lose money. As I always overcollateralize, I actually make money if a hauler is being dumb, picks up six contracts with a billion ISK of stuff in each, and gets blown up. If I ship 500M worth of items, I will set the collateral to 550M - regardless of distance, volume, sec status, etc.

The reward is dictated by the open market, just like everything in EVE. As long as there is enough people willing to move billions of ISK and thousands of m^3 across half the galaxy for pennies, I have no rational reason to pay more. There is no hate or compassion for newbies involved, no desire to screw anyone over or throw ISK at people. Business is business.

Yes, the result in the current state of EVE is a very harsh contract market. Pretty much everything (including highsec mining) can make you more money than picking up courier contracts, if you can be at least somewhat behind the keyboard. But due to the high supply of haulers, courier contracts will always be as cheap as is the cheapest hauler willing to accept.


However don't quit just yet if you want to live the life of a space truck driver. There are heaps of ISK to be made hauling items between different trade hubs. Look for systems where people need to buy a lot of stuff - starter systems, mission hubs, nullsec entrances. See if you can find items that sell that you can buy cheaper in a trade hub and move them there for profit. The offers aren't given to you on a silver plate, but once you find out how to spot profitable trades, you will be rolling in ISK.



I collateralize (real word?) differently. I use current market replacement cost + transport. If I lose an item contracting freight, then the collateral allows me to purchase the item from the closest market hub instantly... because it's the "closest" hub, the freight cost becomes negligible.

Otherwise... I just AFK haul it myself Big smile
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