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Lets give the mining profession the same consideration as mercenaries
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Amdor Renevat
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-06-14 11:49:05 UTC
The other day CCP Soundwave said he had no interest in making combat in Eve fair but he was trying to make sure Mercs had a role to play in the game. Given the past months jihad against miners I think it's high time we look at the mining profession and extend a little love their way as well. The game isn't supposed to be fair so why don't we shift the balance in favor of the miners instead of the gankers who drive away subscribers and potentially ruin game play for other people. You know, just like allowing free allies ruins the game play for mercs.

The way I see it why should a few people who like to gank have all the advantages, instead lets make them HTFU and work for their kills instead of letting them abuse others. Also, since the dev's care so much about making sure the small Merc crowd has a chance to ply their wares it only seems fair to let the much larger mining crowd have the tools needed to enjoy their playstyle. Gankers can still get their gank on, they'll just be the underdogs now instead of the miners.


First, lets take on the biggest gank magnet right now, the Hulk. Someone in another post mentioned it would be a good idea to boost PG and CPU sufficiently to allow a Hulk to actually fit a tank. While we are at it lets put another mid slot and two more low slots on the Hulk to really boost the tank potential. I'd like to see a 300mil ISK hulk with the potential to mount a 75-100k tank. There's no offensive weapons so I'm sure the Ore designers would have considered mounting a heavy defense. Depending on your level of risk you could then fit the strongest tank with lesser mining return or you could balance out how much you pull in while having a lower tank. This would mean someone wanting to gank would have to at least bring a battleship or two. The miners could then actually put up a defense fleet since the Hulks wouldn't just melt when something looked at them with evil intent. After all we are talking about a Tech 2 vessel, surely it deserves to get something in return for rather large cost investment. The low CPU would still limit the number of MLU's you could mount so the yield won't change, just the ability for the Hulk to actually get to do it's job.

Next we have the rest of the mining barges exhumers. In the same theme as our Hulk everyone gets a buff to tank ability. The exhumers get a significant jump in tanking ability corresponding to their development as T2 ships and a couple of extra mids and lows to make pilots choose tank or yield. The barges get BC level tanks to offset their BC cost.

Finally the Orca gets a boost to it's defense as well, not much, but another 10k base shield HP would probably make sure the Orca is strong enough to stay with it's mining fleet.

There, miners get the same level of consideration mercs do with much less coding required. By allowing mining ships to actually be tanked and protected we are creating emergent gameplay by requiring teamwork to provide combat defenders and logistics to mining operations. Mining yields stay the same but no longer can a cheap ship costing 1/100th of a Hulk kill with impunity and with no way for the Hulk to be defended.
Kitt JT
True North.
#2 - 2012-06-14 15:22:18 UTC
Sounds like someone's been ganked recently...
Selissa Shadoe
#3 - 2012-06-14 15:31:07 UTC
Kitt JT wrote:
Sounds like someone's been ganked recently...


Sounds like someone is afraid of losing easy mining barge kills

"Whether suicide ganking or doing anything in eve, there are exorbitant amounts of people in the game and on the forums that are complete jerks." - Spikeflach
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#4 - 2012-06-14 16:35:28 UTC
+1

Side note: If PvP is not supposed to be fair... and isk is not a balancing mechanism....then swop the prices of hulks and destroyers.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2012-06-14 17:07:48 UTC
Kitt JT wrote:
Sounds like someone's been ganked recently...


nah, it sounds rather to me like you just want easy non combat kills.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Baaa Shakiel
Kinnah Incorporated
#6 - 2012-06-14 18:10:37 UTC
This is the age old conundrum. I'd like the OP to do some research on the subject matter of Bot Miners in Eve First and tell me how is this not going to make it even harder for the playerbase to do part to help keep the Bot miners and a healthy minimal level.

Also, eve is very much a social game. The more people u know in game, the less likely you'll get popped, even if you are a miner.

Who Said that Noob Ships SuCK? http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=15091146#lostLoadout

Buddy Program Available - Start off with Millions of Isk! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=9874&p=10
Viktor Fyretracker
Emminent Terraforming
#7 - 2012-06-14 19:23:02 UTC
Why not look at this from a different angle and change that mining forman link that reduces cap usage that nobody at all uses and change it into a shield link.

EVE is about being social and working with others to increase the strength of your unit. So if a friend is in an Orca why not have something that instead of decreasing the cap usage of mining lasers which is a gang link I never see picked over a tractor beam for the Orca and instead have something that either raises a shield bubble around the mining ships based on the shield HP of the Orca or something that directly links the shields of the squad to that of the Orca. Meaning that the gankers would have to bring enough firepower to bust 14k+ of shields before concord arrives.

This would not help lone boaters but it would be a benefit to those who travel in groups with an industrial command ship.

EVE is like swimming on a beach in shark infested waters,  There is however a catch...  The EVE Beach you also have to wonder which fellow swimmer will try and eat you before the sharks.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#8 - 2012-06-14 21:04:14 UTC
Read the dev blog http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=72890 , and stock up on skiffs.
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#9 - 2012-06-14 21:09:40 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Read the dev blog http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=72890 , and stock up on skiffs.


QFT stop whining, they are addressing it.
ReiAnn
Nova-Tek
#10 - 2012-06-14 21:16:59 UTC
Boting is in every game. They will continue to evolve with game mechanics. However, they should never be the reason ANYTHING is ever implemented in a game. It's up to us to report them and the tech support to remove them. The ganking is only chasing away real people, not bots. Bots will easily make the money back from any kill.
fantazmythe
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-06-15 15:39:23 UTC
also, CCP is VERY heavily addressing botting and i have been seeing a noticable difference because of it. CCP's banhammer is working
Haquer
Vorkuta Inc
#12 - 2012-06-15 17:44:13 UTC
Selissa Shadoe wrote:
Kitt JT wrote:
Sounds like someone's been ganked recently...


Sounds like someone is afraid of losing easy mining barge kills


The Hulk is not a mining barge and can, in fact, fit a tank.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#13 - 2012-06-15 19:33:21 UTC
Haquer wrote:
Selissa Shadoe wrote:
Kitt JT wrote:
Sounds like someone's been ganked recently...


Sounds like someone is afraid of losing easy mining barge kills


The Hulk is not a mining barge and can, in fact, fit a tank.


Only an idiot would support the OP's "I want an invulnerable ship becuase I'm too stupid to tank my hulk" suggestion!!! If you're not fitting a damage control, you deserve to die to a single catalyst!!!

To give reference:
A completely unfit Curse has 7.5k EHP.
A completely unfit Vaga has 9.1k EHP.
A completely unfit Hulk has 9.2k EHP...
A completely unfit Scimi has 10.4 EHP.

A standard fit curse has 35k EHP.
A standard fit Vaga has 28k EHP
A tanked Hulk has 30+ k EHP.
A standard fit Scimi has 29k EHP.

A single catalyst does 9-13k damage before concord arrives in a 0.5 system, and will kill an untanked hulk (this is as it should be)!!!

With no MLU, a solo hulk can have above 30k EHP without using blingy and/or faction modules...
With one MLU, a solo Hulk can have above 23k EHP without using bling and/or faction modules...

If you're fitting 2 MLU's on a hulk, you'll have less than 15k EHP, primarily because you lose the damage control.

WIth those numbers, the hulk seems quite reasonable in the tank vs function of the ship!!!!!!! Before the dev blog, I would support a tweak to the hulk's tankability (ideally with the same base tank, but improved it's tanking fitting options). IMO, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me for a solo, single MLU hulk to have a 28-30k EHP tank, and a fully tanked hulk to have a 35-40k EHP tank.

With the latest dev blog, I dont' think any of this matters.

To the Op... CCP is about player responsibility: They want to give you the ability to tank your ship, but expect you to choose between tank and yield. Asking for more viable choices is what the players will support, but demanding to get both sides of the coin at the same time will get you ignored and laughed at.
Korg Tronix
Mole Station Nursery
#14 - 2012-06-15 19:39:48 UTC
Adding any slots to the hulk wont make any difference to ganking, all it will mean is all the idiots that dont tank their hulk now will just use the extras slots to improve their mining somehow and just max their yield. They will still get ganked and it will still be by Destroyers.

Increasing tank beyond the 30k that is achievable currently will just mean that the people who tank now will still tank and the people who dont will continue not to and will continue to whinge about being killed.

Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One! [zaps one of his minions accidentally, minion screams]
Korg Tronix
Mole Station Nursery
#15 - 2012-06-15 19:42:37 UTC
Viktor Fyretracker wrote:
Why not look at this from a different angle and change that mining forman link that reduces cap usage that nobody at all uses and change it into a shield link.

EVE is about being social and working with others to increase the strength of your unit. So if a friend is in an Orca why not have something that instead of decreasing the cap usage of mining lasers which is a gang link I never see picked over a tractor beam for the Orca and instead have something that either raises a shield bubble around the mining ships based on the shield HP of the Orca or something that directly links the shields of the squad to that of the Orca. Meaning that the gankers would have to bring enough firepower to bust 14k+ of shields before concord arrives.

This would not help lone boaters but it would be a benefit to those who travel in groups with an industrial command ship.


Or rather than adding an idiotic module like that the orca could use some of the already available shield links that improve resists etc. and then they could tank there hulk rather than try and get a best of both worlds situation like yours.

Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One! [zaps one of his minions accidentally, minion screams]
Amdor Renevat
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2012-06-16 04:15:54 UTC
Well, first let me say this thread was started prior to the devblog coming out about the future changes to mining ships. Having the option to go tank or yield is great and I really like the idea of what the devs are doing.

That said there are a few problems with some of the replies in this thread. A tank fit Hulk is going to have less then 30k EHP and a lot of that figure is from structure. Even buffed the shield is fairly weak. So while it might not take one destroyer to kill a tanked Hulk I bet it doesn't take much more than two or three.

How anyone could think a super cheap destroyer should have such an easy time killing a T2 ship with no offensive power is beyond me. The point of the original post wasn't about making things fair for the miner, rather I want to make it unfair towards the ganker so they actually have to work hard for a kill instead of making the miner assume all of the burden. The current version of mining ship is impossible to protect, even with a tank. Hopefully the new designs will let people make a choice between safety and yield and actually force gankers to put some effort into getting a kill.
lovebus
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-06-16 07:10:10 UTC
Amdor Renevat wrote:
The other day CCP Soundwave said he had no interest in making combat in Eve fair but he was trying to make sure Mercs had a role to play in the game. Given the past months jihad against miners I think it's high time we look at the mining profession and extend a little love their way as well. The game isn't supposed to be fair so why don't we shift the balance in favor of the miners instead of the gankers who drive away subscribers and potentially ruin game play for other people. You know, just like allowing free allies ruins the game play for mercs.

The way I see it why should a few people who like to gank have all the advantages, instead lets make them HTFU and work for their kills instead of letting them abuse others. Also, since the dev's care so much about making sure the small Merc crowd has a chance to ply their wares it only seems fair to let the much larger mining crowd have the tools needed to enjoy their playstyle. Gankers can still get their gank on, they'll just be the underdogs now instead of the miners.


First, lets take on the biggest gank magnet right now, the Hulk. Someone in another post mentioned it would be a good idea to boost PG and CPU sufficiently to allow a Hulk to actually fit a tank. While we are at it lets put another mid slot and two more low slots on the Hulk to really boost the tank potential. I'd like to see a 300mil ISK hulk with the potential to mount a 75-100k tank. There's no offensive weapons so I'm sure the Ore designers would have considered mounting a heavy defense. Depending on your level of risk you could then fit the strongest tank with lesser mining return or you could balance out how much you pull in while having a lower tank. This would mean someone wanting to gank would have to at least bring a battleship or two. The miners could then actually put up a defense fleet since the Hulks wouldn't just melt when something looked at them with evil intent. After all we are talking about a Tech 2 vessel, surely it deserves to get something in return for rather large cost investment. The low CPU would still limit the number of MLU's you could mount so the yield won't change, just the ability for the Hulk to actually get to do it's job.

Next we have the rest of the mining barges exhumers. In the same theme as our Hulk everyone gets a buff to tank ability. The exhumers get a significant jump in tanking ability corresponding to their development as T2 ships and a couple of extra mids and lows to make pilots choose tank or yield. The barges get BC level tanks to offset their BC cost.

Finally the Orca gets a boost to it's defense as well, not much, but another 10k base shield HP would probably make sure the Orca is strong enough to stay with it's mining fleet.

There, miners get the same level of consideration mercs do with much less coding required. By allowing mining ships to actually be tanked and protected we are creating emergent gameplay by requiring teamwork to provide combat defenders and logistics to mining operations. Mining yields stay the same but no longer can a cheap ship costing 1/100th of a Hulk kill with impunity and with no way for the Hulk to be defended.





you may have noticed but they are retooling the smalledst mining barge and exhumer variant to have "battleship levels of EHP" and they are actually increasing the EHP of all mining ships so there. problem solved. now people will have to really bust tehir ass to kill you before concord gets em
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#18 - 2012-06-16 07:14:48 UTC
Amdor Renevat wrote:
The other day CCP Soundwave said he had no interest in making combat in Eve fair but he was trying to make sure Mercs had a role to play in the game. Given the past months jihad against miners I think it's high time we look at the mining profession and extend a little love their way as well. The game isn't supposed to be fair so why don't we shift the balance in favor of the miners instead of the gankers who drive away subscribers and potentially ruin game play for other people. You know, just like allowing free allies ruins the game play for mercs.

The way I see it why should a few people who like to gank have all the advantages, instead lets make them HTFU and work for their kills instead of letting them abuse others. Also, since the dev's care so much about making sure the small Merc crowd has a chance to ply their wares it only seems fair to let the much larger mining crowd have the tools needed to enjoy their playstyle. Gankers can still get their gank on, they'll just be the underdogs now instead of the miners.


First, lets take on the biggest gank magnet right now, the Hulk. Someone in another post mentioned it would be a good idea to boost PG and CPU sufficiently to allow a Hulk to actually fit a tank. While we are at it lets put another mid slot and two more low slots on the Hulk to really boost the tank potential. I'd like to see a 300mil ISK hulk with the potential to mount a 75-100k tank. There's no offensive weapons so I'm sure the Ore designers would have considered mounting a heavy defense. Depending on your level of risk you could then fit the strongest tank with lesser mining return or you could balance out how much you pull in while having a lower tank. This would mean someone wanting to gank would have to at least bring a battleship or two. The miners could then actually put up a defense fleet since the Hulks wouldn't just melt when something looked at them with evil intent. After all we are talking about a Tech 2 vessel, surely it deserves to get something in return for rather large cost investment. The low CPU would still limit the number of MLU's you could mount so the yield won't change, just the ability for the Hulk to actually get to do it's job.

Next we have the rest of the mining barges exhumers. In the same theme as our Hulk everyone gets a buff to tank ability. The exhumers get a significant jump in tanking ability corresponding to their development as T2 ships and a couple of extra mids and lows to make pilots choose tank or yield. The barges get BC level tanks to offset their BC cost.

Finally the Orca gets a boost to it's defense as well, not much, but another 10k base shield HP would probably make sure the Orca is strong enough to stay with it's mining fleet.

There, miners get the same level of consideration mercs do with much less coding required. By allowing mining ships to actually be tanked and protected we are creating emergent gameplay by requiring teamwork to provide combat defenders and logistics to mining operations. Mining yields stay the same but no longer can a cheap ship costing 1/100th of a Hulk kill with impunity and with no way for the Hulk to be defended.



You want gankers to "work" for their kills? Fine, how about you take a 50% reduction in mining yield for mining in an NPC corp? And if war is declared, the war follows you if you try and hop into another player corp to get away?

Oh wait, what you mean was "please render suicide ganking even less viable, but continue to allow us to evade any and all legitimate methods of attack".

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Xhaiden Ora
Doomheim
#19 - 2012-06-16 07:47:27 UTC
I swear, anymore of these threads and *I'm* going to start ganking Hulks and I've never attacked another player first in EVE before.

You're making other carebears want to kill you.
Jenghiz
Neo Brigade
#20 - 2012-06-16 07:47:46 UTC
I would love for a hulk to be able to take a bit more beating then they can. They were designed for deep space low/null sec mining. Based on their current incarnation they aren't really able to take on rats there let alone a player with no concord hanging over them. I do however think the initial reason this thread was opened is a bit overkill. Besides it seems all of the mining vessels are getting re worked anyway. Im not a big fan of how the changes so far are supposed ot happen but we will have to roll with them.
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