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The Plight of the Rifter

Author
Mira Lynne
State War Academy
Caldari State
#81 - 2012-06-12 18:18:01 UTC
Forum ate my post so ill have to make this fast:
@Aliaksandre
-Rifters orbiting at 500: I cant tell you the number of Rifter pilots taht let me hit them with Void. Hence some of my previous comments about orbiting at 500
-Competent Merlin Pilot: Yes, a competent merlin pilot will be able to catch a unaware Rfiter pilot with minor difficulty. Same can't be said about the uncompetent pilots that fly a merlin because its FotM.
-I agree that if you start the fight inside a merlins range, youre unlikely to make it out. This can be said of all blaster ships.

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Aliaksandre
Screaming Hayabusa
Neo-Bushido Movement
#82 - 2012-06-12 18:28:06 UTC
Mira Lynne wrote:
Forum ate my post so ill have to make this fast:
@Aliaksandre
-Rifters orbiting at 500: I cant tell you the number of Rifter pilots taht let me hit them with Void. Hence some of my previous comments about orbiting at 500
-Competent Merlin Pilot: Yes, a competent merlin pilot will be able to catch a unaware Rfiter pilot with minor difficulty. Same can't be said about the uncompetent pilots that fly a merlin because its FotM.
-I agree that if you start the fight inside a merlins range, youre unlikely to make it out. This can be said of all blaster ships.


Thanks for the summary Roll
Mira Lynne
State War Academy
Caldari State
#83 - 2012-06-12 18:45:25 UTC
Did you maybe miss the part where i pointed out the flawes in your argument?

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Aliaksandre
Screaming Hayabusa
Neo-Bushido Movement
#84 - 2012-06-12 18:54:44 UTC
Mira Lynne wrote:
Did you maybe miss the part where i pointed out the flawes in your argument?


If you consider that to be a list of flaws then I am A OK with my "arguments." Roll

Anyway...boost the rifter speed so that it has the same speed advantage over other T1 frigs pre-rebalance, or nerf the merlin's speed back to what it was before. Rifter goes back to being good at versatility/kiting, merlin still dominates in its role with the huge dps and tank advantage, incursus remains annoying loling at barrage dps.

Topic is talked to death, I'm moving on.

Toodles.
Stukkler Tian
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#85 - 2012-06-12 19:31:29 UTC
I dont see why people are complaining about loosing to merlins .I may have been in the minority here but I used to get rolled on by merlins before the buff. The Merlin is just its Achilles heel, just like it was before the patch the only difference is more people are flying Merlins.
Oh and for the people wondering why people still fly t1 frigs over dessys don't seem to understand that getting in good fights doesn't happen if you are in the best ship it happens when you are in a kill-able ship.
Haulie Berry
#86 - 2012-06-12 20:58:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Aliaksandre wrote:


PS. most rifter pilots don't fly with a T2 web, often opting for the T2 scram to increase kiting range.


Meta 4 scram and T2 scram have the exact same range, so this makes approximately ****-all sense. Actually, it makes less than ****-all sense, because you can overheat the meta4 for longer than the T2.

It's also cheaper.

So, meta4 scrams:
-Same range as T2
-Lasts longer heated (effectively giving it more range for more time) than T2
-Easier to fit than T2
-Cheaper than T2


No frigate pilot with half a brain is fitting T2 scrams... OR webs, for that matter - although the Meta 4s and the T2s for webs are more comparably priced, whereas buying a T2 scram is just throwing a few hundred thousand isk away for an inferior module.

Oh, lower cap cost on the meta 4s, too.

I'm forced to conclude that you don't know what you're talking about.
Aliaksandre
Screaming Hayabusa
Neo-Bushido Movement
#87 - 2012-06-12 22:03:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Aliaksandre
Haulie Berry wrote:
Aliaksandre wrote:


PS. most rifter pilots don't fly with a T2 web, often opting for the T2 scram to increase kiting range.


Meta 4 scram and T2 scram have the exact same range, so this makes approximately ****-all sense. Actually, it makes less than ****-all sense, because you can overheat the meta4 for longer than the T2.

It's also cheaper.

So, meta4 scrams:
-Same range as T2
-Lasts longer heated (effectively giving it more range for more time) than T2
-Easier to fit than T2
-Cheaper than T2


No frigate pilot with half a brain is fitting T2 scrams... OR webs, for that matter - although the Meta 4s and the T2s for webs are more comparably priced, whereas buying a T2 scram is just throwing a few hundred thousand isk away for an inferior module.

Oh, lower cap cost on the meta 4s, too.

I'm forced to conclude that you don't know what you're talking about.


Look at you, pulling me back in.

You are right; however, using a meta 4 scram is a very new thought i didn't consider, since up until a few weeks ago they were way more expensive (7m ish?) and would never be fitted on a t1 rifter...old habits and all. Also, they OH to the same range, 10.8.

Secondly, that extra 3% or so from T2 web from meta web is totally worth it.

Thirdly, even though you are being a prick, you have actually provided new insight.

Sadly, I also had several trial runs where i operated inside web but right outside scram range (simulating OH scram) and it was still way closer than it should have been and lost.

The extra 400m from a meta scram isn't going to make enough of a difference to win the argument that the rifter didn't get shafted.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#88 - 2012-06-12 22:13:28 UTC
So is the rifter getting "shafted" by just the Merlin, or the Incursus and Punisher too?

Without going through extensive analysis it seems to me that it's game over once the rifter gets neuts on the other two.

Caldari > Minmatar > Gallente > Amarr > Caldari.. etc...




Haulie Berry
#89 - 2012-06-12 22:46:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Aliaksandre wrote:


Look at you, pulling me back in.

You are right; however, using a meta 4 scram is a very new thought i didn't consider, since up until a few weeks ago they were way more expensive (7m ish?) and would never be fitted on a t1 rifter...old habits and all. Also, they OH to the same range, 10.8.


No, I said they overheat for *longer*. As in, they burn out more slowly. AFAIK this is true across the board for meta4 Vs T2. So you get that 10.8 range for a little bit longer by packing the meta4 instead of the T2.

Quote:
Secondly, that extra 3% or so from T2 web from meta web is totally worth it.


Not sure what you're on about here. Meta4 and T2 have the same velocity mod: -60%


Quote:
Sadly, I also had several trial runs where i operated inside web but right outside scram range (simulating OH scram) and it was still way closer than it should have been and lost.

The extra 400m from a meta scram isn't going to make enough of a difference to win the argument that the rifter didn't get shafted.


I'm not really sure how you think it got "shafted". The Merlin and Incursus definitely have an advantage over the standard Rifter fits in a close range brawl, yes, but that doesn't really equate to it being "shafted". There are frigates it doesn't completely dominate now - so what? Is there some special reason the Rifter deserves to be the uncontested king of the frigates?


Quote:
So is the rifter getting "shafted" by just the Merlin, or the Incursus and Punisher too?

Without going through extensive analysis it seems to me that it's game over once the rifter gets neuts on the other two.

Caldari > Minmatar > Gallente > Amarr > Caldari.. etc...


Punisher is still pretty bad from what I've seen. I've trivially destroyed every punisher I've run into in my rifter with no particular effort. Orbit, turn mods on, wait for the explosion. It might go differently if any of them packed dual pulse, maybe (I'd have to look at the tracking numbers), but every one I've run into is packing medium. The end result is that I'm faster, I have a web, and their guns don't track quite well enough at very close range.
Aliaksandre
Screaming Hayabusa
Neo-Bushido Movement
#90 - 2012-06-12 23:31:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Aliaksandre
Haulie Berry wrote:
Aliaksandre wrote:


Look at you, pulling me back in.

You are right; however, using a meta 4 scram is a very new thought i didn't consider, since up until a few weeks ago they were way more expensive (7m ish?) and would never be fitted on a t1 rifter...old habits and all. Also, they OH to the same range, 10.8.


No, I said they overheat for *longer*. As in, they burn out more slowly. AFAIK this is true across the board for meta4 Vs T2. So you get that 10.8 range for a little bit longer by packing the meta4 instead of the T2.

Quote:
Secondly, that extra 3% or so from T2 web from meta web is totally worth it.


Not sure what you're on about here. Meta4 and T2 have the same velocity mod: -60%


Quote:
Sadly, I also had several trial runs where i operated inside web but right outside scram range (simulating OH scram) and it was still way closer than it should have been and lost.

The extra 400m from a meta scram isn't going to make enough of a difference to win the argument that the rifter didn't get shafted.


I'm not really sure how you think it got "shafted". The Merlin and Incursus definitely have an advantage over the standard Rifter fits in a close range brawl, yes, but that doesn't really equate to it being "shafted". There are frigates it doesn't completely dominate now - so what? Is there some special reason the Rifter deserves to be the uncontested king of the frigates?


Quote:
So is the rifter getting "shafted" by just the Merlin, or the Incursus and Punisher too?

Without going through extensive analysis it seems to me that it's game over once the rifter gets neuts on the other two.

Caldari > Minmatar > Gallente > Amarr > Caldari.. etc...


Punisher is still pretty bad from what I've seen. I've trivially destroyed every punisher I've run into in my rifter with no particular effort. Orbit, turn mods on, wait for the explosion. It might go differently if any of them packed dual pulse, maybe (I'd have to look at the tracking numbers), but every one I've run into is packing medium. The end result is that I'm faster, I have a web, and their guns don't track quite well enough at very close range.


You are right, I misread the distance. Also on the T2 web, same deal as T2 scram; just forgot about price changes. However I doubt prices will remain the way they are, so snap up the meta4s while you can.

Once again, it still isn't enough. The point isn't about how the rifter should avoid the merlin and incursus, the point is that the rifter has been "shafted" by not being good at a particular role. Brawling ships with brawling fits should not kill a nimble kiter 9/10 times should they? Like I said, simple fix, change the base speeds to how they were pre-buff.

No one is saying rifter should be king, but it should have a purpose. What is it? Merlin and Incursus now do everything better than the rifter. It will also lose to a tristan and tormentor (good DPS out to 10km), so what else is there to fight? Kestrel? Burst? Executioner? Sweet...find people flying those.

The merlin and incursus can simply switch ammo to be a real brawler (void), and switch again to be a "kiter" (that kills a kiting rifter) with null. The rifter cannot do this. Instead of balancing by bringing the incursus and merlin to the level of the rifter, they pushed them above.

And yes, you can orbit at 500 under the punishers guns pretty easily.
Shadow Adanza
Gold Crest Salvage
#91 - 2012-06-12 23:47:15 UTC
Give the Punisher a boost! The Punisher is the unquestioned lesser of all the other ships mentioned here! Even out the Punisher! All hail the future Punisher! Right now it is nowhere near its name.

Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?

Mira Lynne
State War Academy
Caldari State
#92 - 2012-06-13 00:43:44 UTC
Aliaksandre wrote:
No one is saying rifter should be king

Aliaksandre wrote:
Brawling ships with brawling fits should not kill a nimble kiter 9/10 times

Roll Winmatar should win because of Winmatar.
Sorry, but it sounds alot like youre saying:
Aliaksandre wrote:
Rifter should be king

Give me one good reason that Kiting ships should be 'I-Win' buttons that should have the right to defecate all over brawling ships. If anything it should be the other way around, as a reward to brawlers for having the balls to commit their ship to a fight, as opposed to 'Oh Dear! I may loose this one! I best run away, lest i break a Nail!'

Aliaksandre wrote:
lose to a tristan

Tristan is pretty much pre-nerf Merlin, yes it can kill a Rifter, with about 3x as many SPs as the rifter pilot.

Aliaksandre wrote:
merlin and incursus can simply switch ammo to be a real brawler (void), and switch again to be a "kiter" (that kills a kiting rifter) with null. The rifter cannot do this

If only there was some sort of ammo for projectiles, that increased their range in much the same way that Null increases blaster Range Roll

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Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#93 - 2012-06-13 08:29:15 UTC
Mira Lynne wrote:

If only there was some sort of ammo for projectiles, that increased their range in much the same way that Null increases blaster Range Roll

And if only this weapon could benefit twice as more as any other weapon from module enhancing range...Roll

Versatility come to a price : you cannot do everything better than those who specialize on something. If you are used to this, this is because that was broken. And autocanon are not a kitting weapon of choice, arty or lasers are. Problem of kitting weapon is that they are prone to be outtrack at close range. You cannot have everything and the rifter do not deserve to win every fight with one fit. To kite, you should start by fitting a tracking enhancer for example.

Oh, and about your actual fighting prowess : basically, what you are saying is that if your oponent is better than you and manage to get every advantage it can benefit from, he will win, but that was pretty obvious in fact. Same used to be said by blaster boat users : fight never start at 4km unless in a wormhole, and when slower than your oponent, you cannot go to point blanc range. That was an (imo bad) argument for (the imo bad idea of) blaster boat to become the fastest ship to allow them to reach their effective range.

First thing we learn for solo pvp is how to wisely pick our fight. Rifter pilots seem to have forgoten this. You cannot win every fight with one fit.
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#94 - 2012-06-13 15:11:00 UTC
Wait, some people didn't crosstrain all frigates in anticipation for the AF buff? Shocked
Kalli Brixzat
#95 - 2012-06-13 16:10:54 UTC
Roosterton wrote:
Wait, some people didn't crosstrain all frigates in anticipation for the AF buff? Shocked


Oh, I did...though I was close to passing on the Amarr training since I see their frigates as the worst of the bunch for PvP.
Kyle Myr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#96 - 2012-06-13 20:11:53 UTC
From something of an outsider perspective, it's interesting to see all this discussion focused on 1v1 scenarios. It's far from an invalid stance, and in fact may be common in modern post-Inferno FW world (that seems to be the engagement scenario this board focuses on most these days). I started out learning with larger 0.0 fleet combat and smaller 0.0 roams, with the odd very small bit of homeland defense work on the side. Since then, I've had a chance to see low sec war, high sec war, and a lot of smaller action stuff, but coming to this after having seen the others, I have slightly different priorities for fitting. I figure I can at least do my best to share this perspective, so people can consider a different angle

Rifters are great, and we encourage our new players to train them, and fly them, and hand them out for free. This is fairly well known. I've personally assembled a few hundred Rifters (I have nothing on the king of space likes, Lyris Nairn). My first experience with significant combat beyond a few basic training missions and the odd newbie training exercise was flying a Rifter in the defense of DKUK about a year ago. I flew around, went after a bunch of Interdictors, and died horribly when a Claw decided he'd had enough of my shenanigans. It was chaotic and fun. Later, I actually proved useful by getting a warp-in on a sniper gang in a different fight on some undock, and continued to provide a warping when I was webbed, scrammed, and popped. Somewhere around this time, I moved to flying Stabbers.

Our Rifter fitting is designed to be produced or purchased en masse for pennies, to lock down a target, to move quickly to get that tackle, and to have a salvager so newbies can make money on something besides the insurance from death. The fit is a deathtrap - it's got little EHP, can't really receive reps, and doesn't do great damage. However, a heroic tackle will get a new player a nice killmail, and a showering of ISK:

3x 200mm AC I
1x Salvager I

1x MWD I
1x Scram
1x Web

1x Cap Power Relay
2x Nanos

1x Reload of ammo in the cargo

Given the priorities listed above, the rifter really is the best choice - it can fit a scram, web, and MWD, it gets 2 nanos and a cap mod to help people with lower skills run it longer, and it has capless weapons that do decent damage if you need to orbit your target at further than point-blank range (staying outside of smart bomb range is critical to frigate/destroyer gangs)

Hopefully this adds some perspective to why other people love Rifters so much.
Stukkler Tian
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#97 - 2012-06-14 01:06:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Stukkler Tian
Those of you complaining about the punisher obviously haven't flown the fat slicer fit. Also in a brawl the punishers only real problem is that it cant hold onto a smart opponent because of the lacking 3rd mid, however if you gave the punisher a mid for webs it would be retardely good at kiting inside scram range so its kind of a catch 22. also the goon above me makes a valid point you cant discount the versatility of a rifter when complaining about it.
Gitanmaxx
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#98 - 2012-06-14 04:09:42 UTC
Kyle Myr wrote:
Strictly speaking, these changes did more to bring other ships in line with the Rifter than they did for making the Rifter in any way bad. Fixing the mixed slots disease on the Merlin is a welcome change for new players (though I do wish it had a spare slot left for a salvager). Punishers always felt ilke they had the worst end of the stick before, of the 4 types of decent newbie tackler (Incursus being the choice for the 4th racial pick). Now, there are compelling arguments to be made for fitting out all of these ships, where before the Rifter really had a strong edge over everything else with the exemption of the guy who made the best use of that one Warrior II that he possibly could.

At the end of the day, the Rifter's speed advantage and great slot layout let it be fit a range of ways, many of which are still valid. I'm glad that the other frigates now have the opportunity to kill poorly fit battleships as well.



Exactly.

This is why I'm very happy with the direction of the rebalance, each t1 frig is now an equally viable option.
Dood Maker
Doomheim
#99 - 2012-06-14 08:10:39 UTC
I'm confused by the OP Question the same as others on here.

I fly Amarr but have a great deal of respect to the Rifter and what it can do - To attack something in a solo fight you need to know what it can do and even I can fit it with using all the slots and still get kills.

You will find that there are so many different great fits out there for this ship and only shield tanking the ship is well a bit of a waste.

The biggest thing that people need to remember when fitting it is that it's a Minmitar ship = speed (hit and run is the name of the game) saying that there is the rupture (for another time)

Your in a frigate so tank is limited. (Unless you 200/400mm plate it) so transversal is your biggest friend.

A good pvp pilot blames himself for dying and learns from the mistake and will try his utmost to not do it again. Only a fool blames the equipment he is using.

Don't blame the ship. Just stop fitting it like a moron.

Adapt to change of events or sit there and die crying in the corner
Smabs
Perkone
Caldari State
#100 - 2012-06-14 08:31:36 UTC
Quote:
Goon standard rifter fitting


They work for goons or test because you get a lot of new players and can use them in masses. I don't know, I never liked that fit at all, even for newbies because it doesn't teach a terrible lot of anything other than 'I'm going for point I hope I don't die oh I died'.

I know the rifter is kinda symbolic for goons so that's fair enough. Plus it leads on to welpcanes then maelstroms so it makes sense to get those ships trained on an alliance level. You can technically do a better job with a merlin (waay more hitpoints) or incursus (better slot layout and good hp just from a damage control). The rifter might not be the best fit anymore for alliances that don't train so heavily into minmatar.