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Factional Warfare needs to be nerfed
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Lord Meriak
State Naval Academy
#21 - 2012-06-11 06:03:04 UTC
Amarr bring in the neuting power as per race bonus.
no cap no burner or mwd. Twisted
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2012-06-11 06:30:15 UTC  |  Edited by: MotherMoon
it has nothing to do with PvE, they are losing the PvE war. its dumb.

running factional warfare sites is as difficult as running a level 4 mission. but easier for minmatar, to a stupid degree.

They need to be as hard a wormhole sites to make them worth the reward and worth running in gangs.

more small gangs roaming about equals more small gang warfare. Make frigate only sites pay out just as much as battleship sites. if you can only bring in frigates then a lot of skill points can be spent into the tech 2 frigate line, give us the same rewards in PvP in frigate only Arenas. The timing being held by one team is a good touch. If a gang of 4 frigates is looking for sites in finds one, they should be ready for a fight with player level NPCs. 3 frigates something easy for a small gang to handle. stops people from soloing sites. Then other small fleets doing the same thing will come across each other if you focus warfare only into the boarder systems. Make more sites pop in systems connected to enemy space.

Then you'd have 10 on 10 fights all the time with the bigger plex running teams, with battleships, sometimes carriers. But the blobs moves apart becuase the reward is so high to hold these sites teams spilt up. It uses the incursion pay out balaner. Have you seen it? It's prefect for FW to fight the blob while promting roaming in small gangs. FW has the promise to be amazing PvP, CCP just have to actully design a smart system.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#23 - 2012-06-11 06:31:27 UTC
Private Pineapple wrote:


2) Amarr has a harder time conquering our systems.



So you're saying you haven't noticed the 4 systems that the Amarr retook last week?

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Herr Hammer Draken
#24 - 2012-06-11 06:35:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Hammer Draken
The side effect of this thread is that now the cat is out of the bag tons of people will be pouring into the Minmatar FW war to make quick riches before this gets axed. The situation will get far worse before it gets better.

Of course their is another group that is looking for action in low sec. They have been pushing to have level 4 missions moved to low sec. Well they need look no further. It looks like this will be a target rich environment. Lots of low skilled pilots in low sec.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2012-06-11 06:41:49 UTC
time to buy.... datacores... >.> <.<

omg this is awesome lol.we are all going to make so much money! *if you don't know what I'm talking about check the new datacore LP bonus and price thing. muhahahaha, minmatar datacores are 16 times cheaper than amarr datacore right now! : O

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Lexmana
#26 - 2012-06-11 07:20:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexmana
MotherMoon wrote:
They need to be as hard a wormhole sites to make them worth the reward and worth running in gangs.

This is not the solution. The hard part of FW plexes should be the defending militia. Buffing NPCs will only promote PVE fits/fleets. The problem right now is that some factions can AFK cap major plexes in rifters without even fitting guns.

The simple solution is that all NPCs has to be killed to capture the plex.
ModeratedToSilence
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2012-06-11 07:31:22 UTC
I for one am looking forward to buying fleet issue stabbers for 25mil because there is a rapid influx in Minmatar FW pilots.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2012-06-11 09:08:42 UTC  |  Edited by: MotherMoon
Lexmana wrote:
MotherMoon wrote:
They need to be as hard a wormhole sites to make them worth the reward and worth running in gangs.

This is not the solution. The hard part of FW plexes should be the defending militia. Buffing NPCs will only promote PVE fits/fleets. The problem right now is that some factions can AFK cap major plexes in rifters without even fitting guns.

The simple solution is that all NPCs has to be killed to capture the plex.


I disagree. The NPCs need to be upgraded again then, just for Factional warfare. it should be just as hard as fighting player ships, should require PvP fits to kill. How can you be ok with sites being soloable? It's like grinding level 4 missions, it's entirely a solo activity. No one to fight becuase the other militia is running your sites solo as well. hard to catch everyone when there are 200 targets all soloing thier own systems.

Isn't this suppose to be war? not solo fest 5000?If the reward "is the PvP" then I'd just go join a war.. oh look I FOUND IT. it's Red verus Blue. The reward for FW is NOT PvP. that would be stupid. Guildwars 2 pulled it off, why can't eve?


In fact all NPC missions should be brought up to player strenght. CCP has talked about revamping the mission system for a long time. I think it's about time we got used to NPC ships not being push overs in general. Level 4 missions should be a challenge. Whats the point of 10 battleships in place of a single battleship? it's scareen cluter, it's silly that you can solo so many ships.

It's beyound silly running missions in Eve online. Not that wormhole space or incursions have it right either. But I want missions where I have to fight 2 ships, and it's a hard tough battle that promotes actually learning to fly when combat lasts longer than lock, fire twice, repeat.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Lexmana
#29 - 2012-06-11 09:52:12 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:
Lexmana wrote:
MotherMoon wrote:
They need to be as hard a wormhole sites to make them worth the reward and worth running in gangs.

This is not the solution. The hard part of FW plexes should be the defending militia. Buffing NPCs will only promote PVE fits/fleets. The problem right now is that some factions can AFK cap major plexes in rifters without even fitting guns.

The simple solution is that all NPCs has to be killed to capture the plex.


I disagree. The NPCs need to be upgraded again then, just for Factional warfare. it should be just as hard as fighting player ships, should require PvP fits to kill. How can you be ok with sites being soloable? .

The main problem is not doing them solo. I am fine with that. But they should require you to kill the NPCs making it impossible to solo them AFK in a ship without guns and inefficient to solo medium/major in frigates just to farm LP. That will promote group work.

Today there is a low threshold to enter these sites and that is a good thing. There are lots of fights (i.e. PVP) of various sizes going on inside of these plexes. I think that part is working mostly as intended.

Tougher NPCs will mean:
1. higher threshold to enter these sites for plexing
2. higher threshold to enter these sites to attack those who are plexing
3. a disadvantage for those having aggro inside the plex making them more likely to warp off if attacked
4. more PVE fits/fleets

All these factors will reduce PvP.

The general idea of FW plexing I think is fine. It is basically a capture the flag game with a beacon broadcasting your position to the enemy to come and get you before the timer runs out. Just make it impossible to farm them for LP efficiently solo in a frigate and they will be fine.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2012-06-11 11:24:11 UTC
how would, pvp fit NPC ships promote PvE fits? what?

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Lexmana
#31 - 2012-06-11 12:05:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexmana
MotherMoon wrote:
how would, pvp fit NPC ships promote PvE fits? what?

You think you are smart ... but you are not.
MotherMoon wrote:
But I want missions where I have to fight 2 ships, and it's a hard tough battle that promotes actually learning to fly when combat lasts longer than lock, fire twice, repeat.

Maybe that is an RvB thing? In FW we are looking to PvP and not PvE.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#32 - 2012-06-11 12:44:21 UTC
Private Pineapple wrote:


There are a number of reasons how I am able to get this much LP and how I have a high ISK per LP ratio:

1) I can speedtank their complexes.

2) Amarr cannot speedtank Minmatar complexes.


CCP have known about this problem for years.

CCP decided to not fix it in favour of implementing changes which will magnify the imbalance.


Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Private Pineapple
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2012-06-11 15:11:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Private Pineapple
Lord Meriak wrote:
Amarr bring in the neuting power as per race bonus.
no cap no burner or mwd.


Right now only the Imperial Templar frigates actually neut. I think it's a short range on it (~12 km? i have no idea) so in a medium/major complex the orbital is too wide for them to actually get to you and neut. At that point you do have to realize it's a crappy frigate neut, so we're talking about 30-50 cap every 10 seconds. The "neuting" race bonus is nonexistent in these complexes.

Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
The side effect of this thread is that now the cat is out of the bag tons of people will be pouring into the Minmatar FW war to make quick riches before this gets axed. The situation will get far worse before it gets better.


ModeratedToSilence wrote:
I for one am looking forward to buying fleet issue stabbers for 25mil because there is a rapid influx in Minmatar FW pilots.


This is one of my intentions. I believe that to get a problem looked at and solved correctly, the majority of the playerbase has to be involved in it. I know FW pilots are not even close to being "the majority" but as long as I can cause a significant increase in the amount of pilots doing this kind of activity, CCP may treat it more seriously.

.
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#34 - 2012-06-11 17:23:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Muad 'dib
this thread made me sad.

600mil in no time on a 8 day old char.

I knew minmatar were making good and easy money but thats insane, ive made 600k lp so far in the amarr miltia since the fw patch and would make so little isk from it i cant even bring my self to exchange any of it, nor spend any upgrading many systems yet as we hold so few.

All while the progress on the war is going so slow i dont think we will even get to t2 for months.

Minmatar can earn enough offensive plexing in a few hours to spant the intire rest of the day loosing ships decontesting systems to halt the Amarr progress.

Ive been hearing about amarr making minnie alts to cash in for their mains to fight on Amarr side: this is a crazy situation to be in. Effectively holding back more amarr progress to get the isk to be able to fight for the systems, its a total circle jerk.

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
Lord Ryan
True Xero
#35 - 2012-06-11 17:30:21 UTC
Maybe I'm doing it wrong but I've never made an ISK off FW. FW cost me tons of ISK though. If every now in than I get a small amount of my ISK back plexing, I don't see a problem with that.

If you don't like carebears, carebearing in your FW do something about it and stop QQ!

Do not assume anything above this line was typed by me. Nerf the Truth, it's inconvenient.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#36 - 2012-06-11 18:54:35 UTC
Muad 'dib wrote:
this thread made me sad.

600mil in no time on a 8 day old char.

I knew minmatar were making god and easy money but thats insane, ive made 600k lp so far and would make so little isk from it i cant even bring my self to exchange any of it.

All while the progress on the war is going so slow i dont think we will even get to t2 for months.

Minmatar can earn enough offensive plexing in a few hours to spant the intire rest of the day loosing ships decontesting systems to halt the Amarr progress.

Ive been hearing about amarr making minnie alts to cash in for their mains to fight on Amarr side: this is a crazy situation to be in. Effectively holding back more amarr progress to get the isk to be able to fight for the systems, its a total circle jerk.


Let's step back and look at that. You have 200+ pilots vying for plexes in 10-14 systems. You can also get LP from kills - but you are sharing those with the fleet you're in. And you have to fleet up b/c Amarr are pushed into those 10-14 systems pretty tightly. And you have mission running. (which should be allowed only in enemy systems).

Now Pineapple is all excited. But other Minmatar are starting 'LP for defensive plexing!' threads. I was in Minmatar for 3 weeks after Inferno. I played sparingly and got 80k LP. I've played sparingly for the Amarr for a week and have 700k LP. Minmatar will suffer LP scarcity the more they push the Amarr out.
Synthetic Cultist
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#37 - 2012-06-11 19:52:42 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:
how would, pvp fit NPC ships promote PvE fits? what?


Because NPCs are dumb and have fixed capabilities.

An NPC punisher always has the same damage output, the same speed, the same tank, the same behaviour.

Once people have figured out the pattern, the challenge disappears.


If the NPCs are a challenge to faction fit faction frigates with off-grid gang boosters, then they will compel people flying lowskill tech1 frigate groups to decline action against any other players that turn up. They'd have their hands full dealing with the NPCs.

If the NPCs are not a challenge to the faction frigates, then they are irrelevant, and exist only to be farmed. The situation isn't improved.



There are other things that could be done to counter afk plex running.

Some of the Incursion sites featured things that had to be done simultaneously, or moving an object from one location to another.
FW complexes may be more interesting if they used some of those mechanics.

Orbit a thing for X amount of time, it generates an object in container A. Move the object to container B, it contributes to capturing the plex.
That could reduce the problems of NPCs being dumb, if the geometry of the plex means that to speedtank the thing you orbit places you in optimal for being shot at by the npcs around the containers, and vice versa.

Synthia 1, Empress of Kaztropol.

It is Written.
RTSAvalanche
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#38 - 2012-06-12 03:26:28 UTC
Muad 'dib wrote:
this thread made me sad.

600mil in no time on a 8 day old char.

I knew minmatar were making good and easy money but thats insane, ive made 600k lp so far in the amarr miltia since the fw patch and would make so little isk from it i cant even bring my self to exchange any of it, nor spend any upgrading many systems yet as we hold so few.

All while the progress on the war is going so slow i dont think we will even get to t2 for months.

Minmatar can earn enough offensive plexing in a few hours to spant the intire rest of the day loosing ships decontesting systems to halt the Amarr progress.

Ive been hearing about amarr making minnie alts to cash in for their mains to fight on Amarr side: this is a crazy situation to be in. Effectively holding back more amarr progress to get the isk to be able to fight for the systems, its a total circle jerk.



Unable to effectively do missions, especially with the LP ratio down the drain - how are we meant to fight the good fight once broke?
Plexing + PvP - you get paid for doing it! Great, but it's in worthless LP..

One might say - you are building up lots of LP bit by bit

And yes thats great and all (around 890k) - but my arguement is quite simple - we need a means to sustain ourselves through the tough times, i'm happy for Minmatar to swim in isk while they are winning. But how are the Amarr meant to fight back with no real income to speak of?? Go Go Battle-Impairors!!??
^ It should be noted since locking us out of stations we have needed to adapted with POS's (which is somthing i never wanted to deal with!!!) and now we need to pay for POS fuel... how exactly?
Torneach
Doomheim
#39 - 2012-06-12 03:58:53 UTC
I might have to join Amarr FW so I can zip around and try and gank some plexers....
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2012-06-12 04:07:25 UTC
Private Pineapple wrote:
First off, I want to say two things:

1) I have no idea if these changes were in before Inferno, as I didn't play much after I last quit in 2010. I also knew nothing about FW when I quit in 2010.

2) I apologize if there is already a thread up on this topic.

As it stands, it is too easy to make ISK via Minmatar FW. I made 600 mil with little to no effort in the last two days (Friday/Saturday) and if I care enough I'll make another 100 or 200 mil today. I am a 8-day old character, I should not be able to make that kind of ISK in so little time with the exception of intelligently playing the market. I know nothing about playing the market so I have to "work" for my ISK, but with FW I barely have to work at all for a lot of ISK.

Major complexes give 25000 LP.
Medium complexes give 15000 LP.
Minor complexes give 10000 LP.

For my horrible navigation skills, I can't speedtank a minor complex in a Vigil, nor can I really "do them" because my speedtanking Vigil fit with 200mm ACs can't even track them fast enough as I orbit them. This is still nice because I prefer to do Medium/Major complexes. Ultimately, I prefer doing major complexes as I can pretty much AFK in them as the orbital is so wide that they never get a lucky hit on me. In mediums I can't AFK too much because I'll get a hit here and there, so I have to pulse my SSB once in a while.

I made 188k LP in the last 2 days doing mostly majors, but some medium and minors (with partners) here and there. I didn't bother doing any plexes for the majority of yesterday as I made like 100k LP and I got bored of making more LP. On Friday night I made 80-90k LP. With what I'm trading in (which is slowly crashing in the market compared to the other Minmatar faction stuff that's crashing really fast) I get 3000 ISK per LP.

188k LP took me from 85 mil to 691 mil ISK.

There are a number of reasons how I am able to get this much LP and how I have a high ISK per LP ratio:

1) I can speedtank their complexes.

2) Amarr cannot speedtank Minmatar complexes.

Combine these reasons together and you will understand why Amarr is losing the Amarr vs Minmatar war heavily as Minmatar complexes cannot be speedtanked due to TPing and webbing NPCS. This means Amarr has very little progress in T1 while Minmatar is always T3 but fluctuates up to T4 daily.

The Gallente vs Caldari war do not have this problem because both sides can speedtank both factions. This means both Caldari and Gallente fluctate between T1 and T2.

The T3/T4 fluctuation is a huge advantage to my success. At T3, we pay normal price as other corporations for anything in the LP store. At T4, we pay 50% of the price! (just a note: T1 means you pay 4x the price, T2 you pay 2x, so as the tiers go you divide by two, this means T5 will be absolute insanity as it'd be 25% of normal price). This is for both ISK and LP, so something that costs 10000 LP and 10 million ISK to buy is 5000 LP and 5 million ISK to buy at T4.

So let's take a step back and see what this means. With T4, we get more from the LP store for cheaper. Factor in the fact that speedtanking Amarr plexes is effortless, resulting in a massive pseudo-free LP income, we have brand-new characters with crappy navigation skills making 200-300 mil per day with no effort and a couple of Vigil losses to retardation.

However, this can be fixed.

There are two solutions. One is easy, but detrimental to the whole point of FW. The other is good and solves the basic problem behind FW at the moment.

1) Let Amarr speedtank Minmatar complexes so everyone is "equal" in our ability to speedtank. But this is a bad suggestion because the ability to speedtank each others' complexes is a bad design implementation. Let's move on to the better suggestion.

2) Have all NPCs that spawn in all 4 faction complexes be able to web you. This will solve the problem behind speedtanking and force intelligent fleet composition and gameplay to actually conquer complexes.


cuz what we really need to do for factional warfare to make it more popular right now is gut the reward.... (sic)
This is not wow... factions don't need to be equal...

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

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