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Dark Matter Bonds: #2 - 30B - Finished
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Asura07
Dark Matter Investments
#1 - 2012-06-08 21:28:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Asura07
Introduction:
I’m back for a second round! My first bond went over splendidly and I was quite happy with the results, so I’m giving it another go.

Business Plan:
I’m looking to raise 30B isk this time to further my trading shenanigans and stuff. My previous bond filled up very quickly and I had to increase the original amount, so because of that I will allow to bond to grow up to 50B if the demand is present. I would like to start the bond one week from today, 6/15/2012.

Risks:
No collateral involved. However, I currently do not have any bus driving assassins after me so that danger is not an issue.

The Breakdown:
The minimum investment is 500M and the max is 10B
ArrowAn investment of 500M will receive 4% interest/month for the duration of the bond.
Arrow1B will get 5% interest/month
Arrow5B will get 6% interest/month
Arrow10B will get 7% interest/month

Bond:
60 individual bonds valued at 500M each

Running time:
2 Months

Repayment:
1st Interest payment: 7/15/2012
2nd Interest payment (with principal returned): 8/15/2012

Reporting:
I will provide a customized API for investors.

Starting date:
Bond will launch on 6/15/2012 when investors have sent their isk.

As always, friends and former investors have priority in terms of reservation.

Current Investor List:
Gei’neille – 11.5B
Konrad Amadeus – 10B
xXThe EntityXx – 500M
Gavin Nordoff - 500M
Kr'All Brinknoor - 2.5B
Yarri Jiark - 5B
xXThe EntityXx
Nobody in Local
Deepwater Hooligans
#2 - 2012-06-08 21:34:08 UTC
Confirming a 500M reservation.
Gei'neille
Paragon Group
#3 - 2012-06-09 00:24:28 UTC
Confirming 10B isk investment
Rykker Bow
Center for Advanced Studies
#4 - 2012-06-09 01:07:37 UTC
first, this is a huge second bond. It is a rare thing to see a 30-50b uncolatorized bond. I have only been around for 2-3 years but I cannot think of any second bonds over 20b, please let me know of any that you know of.

secondly, and to be honest I did go too deep, but it seems as if the majority of your previous bond investors and current investors are either current corp mates, previous corp mates or previous alliance mates. Why not just go to them in the first place to solicit funds?

lastly, in the event that this actually finds the usual investors found in MD, what is to prevent you from continually increasing the bond amount as you did in the previous? ie. 5b at 5% up to 20.5b.

The Mjolnir Bloc - Lowsec PvP for the sophisticated - The Mjolnir Bloc Killboards
Asura07
Dark Matter Investments
#5 - 2012-06-09 01:34:03 UTC
Rykker Bow wrote:
first, this is a huge second bond. It is a rare thing to see a 30-50b uncolatorized bond. I have only been around for 2-3 years but I cannot think of any second bonds over 20b, please let me know of any that you know of.

secondly, and to be honest I did go too deep, but it seems as if the majority of your previous bond investors and current investors are either current corp mates, previous corp mates or previous alliance mates. Why not just go to them in the first place to solicit funds?

lastly, in the event that this actually finds the usual investors found in MD, what is to prevent you from continually increasing the bond amount as you did in the previous? ie. 5b at 5% up to 20.5b.


First, you are right that it is a very large collateralized bond, and I'm not familiar with any out there that are this large. But, who's to say it wouldn't work? Also the Paragon Capital Managed Trading Fund that i was a part of was entirely uncollateralized. Granted that's a bit different than doing bonds, but the same idea is there. Once i can gain some trust and a larger investor base, the amount can keep going up over time.

Also, it is true most of my investors are friends and previous corp/alliance mates. Those are the people I would and did go to first, but I am interested in expanding my loyal investor list beyond that.

Thirdly, I'm am still kinda new to bonds, and with my first one I had no idea what kind of demand i would get. As for this one, I have capped it at 50B. I'll admit i would be super excited if i could get over 50B put into a bond, but it will not go any higher on this one.
Rykker Bow
Center for Advanced Studies
#6 - 2012-06-09 01:57:43 UTC
Asura07 wrote:
Rykker Bow wrote:
first, this is a huge second bond. It is a rare thing to see a 30-50b uncolatorized bond. I have only been around for 2-3 years but I cannot think of any second bonds over 20b, please let me know of any that you know of.

secondly, and to be honest I did go too deep, but it seems as if the majority of your previous bond investors and current investors are either current corp mates, previous corp mates or previous alliance mates. Why not just go to them in the first place to solicit funds?

lastly, in the event that this actually finds the usual investors found in MD, what is to prevent you from continually increasing the bond amount as you did in the previous? ie. 5b at 5% up to 20.5b.


First, you are right that it is a very large collateralized bond, and I'm not familiar with any out there that are this large. But, who's to say it wouldn't work? Also the Paragon Capital Managed Trading Fund that i was a part of was entirely uncollateralized. Granted that's a bit different than doing bonds, but the same idea is there. Once i can gain some trust and a larger investor base, the amount can keep going up over time.

Also, it is true most of my investors are friends and previous corp/alliance mates. Those are the people I would and did go to first, but I am interested in expanding my loyal investor list beyond that.

Thirdly, I'm am still kinda new to bonds, and with my first one I had no idea what kind of demand i would get. As for this one, I have capped it at 50B. I'll admit i would be super excited if i could get over 50B put into a bond, but it will not go any higher on this one.



I'm interested to hear more about this Paragon Capital business. From this post here, which details the closing of a 100 billion ISK business involving over 40 investees only two posted showing satisfaction and both of them were members of the same set of corps of your MD bond investors. There were just as many posters being critical. If there are other threads please link them as I would like to read them.

My next questions are:

1. Have you ever had an audit
2. Will you get an audit
3. Has Paragon Capital ever been audited
4. How many of investors on the list of the Paragon business are in the same set of corp/alliance?

These and the previous points I think should be considered in the risk profile of this bond. The risk profile of the last bond spiked hard when you went from 5b to over 20b. Investors are a cautious bunch and don't like drastic changes.

The Mjolnir Bloc - Lowsec PvP for the sophisticated - The Mjolnir Bloc Killboards
Asura07
Dark Matter Investments
#7 - 2012-06-09 02:43:22 UTC
Rykker Bow wrote:
Asura07 wrote:
Rykker Bow wrote:
first, this is a huge second bond. It is a rare thing to see a 30-50b uncolatorized bond. I have only been around for 2-3 years but I cannot think of any second bonds over 20b, please let me know of any that you know of.

secondly, and to be honest I did go too deep, but it seems as if the majority of your previous bond investors and current investors are either current corp mates, previous corp mates or previous alliance mates. Why not just go to them in the first place to solicit funds?

lastly, in the event that this actually finds the usual investors found in MD, what is to prevent you from continually increasing the bond amount as you did in the previous? ie. 5b at 5% up to 20.5b.


First, you are right that it is a very large collateralized bond, and I'm not familiar with any out there that are this large. But, who's to say it wouldn't work? Also the Paragon Capital Managed Trading Fund that i was a part of was entirely uncollateralized. Granted that's a bit different than doing bonds, but the same idea is there. Once i can gain some trust and a larger investor base, the amount can keep going up over time.

Also, it is true most of my investors are friends and previous corp/alliance mates. Those are the people I would and did go to first, but I am interested in expanding my loyal investor list beyond that.

Thirdly, I'm am still kinda new to bonds, and with my first one I had no idea what kind of demand i would get. As for this one, I have capped it at 50B. I'll admit i would be super excited if i could get over 50B put into a bond, but it will not go any higher on this one.



I'm interested to hear more about this Paragon Capital business. From this post here, which details the closing of a 100 billion ISK business involving over 40 investees only two posted showing satisfaction and both of them were members of the same set of corps of your MD bond investors. There were just as many posters being critical. If there are other threads please link them as I would like to read them.

My next questions are:

1. Have you ever had an audit
2. Will you get an audit
3. Has Paragon Capital ever been audited
4. How many of investors on the list of the Paragon business are in the same set of corp/alliance?

These and the previous points I think should be considered in the risk profile of this bond. The risk profile of the last bond spiked hard when you went from 5b to over 20b. Investors are a cautious bunch and don't like drastic changes.


The only other thread we had was this one. We used it to post our monthly profit and dividend amounts, also investors would post there for verification. We did not often hit the forums as our investors were happy enough to see their isk at the end of the month. We also had an in-game chat channel that we communicated through mostly, that and email.

As for auditing, no i've not been, I don't plan on getting one, and PC has not been audited to my knowledge. And we had investors from various corps and alliances, and you should be able to see those yourself, so I'm not sure of the fourth question.

And i realize what happened there on the first bond, but I've learned from that and it won't happen again. At least it was the bond amount where the issue was and not something else.
SetrakDark
Doomheim
#8 - 2012-06-09 02:52:27 UTC
rofl

2nd run at failed ponzi scheme
Rykker Bow
Center for Advanced Studies
#9 - 2012-06-09 03:11:36 UTC
ty for the responses

The Mjolnir Bloc - Lowsec PvP for the sophisticated - The Mjolnir Bloc Killboards
Gei'neille
Paragon Group
#10 - 2012-06-09 03:15:42 UTC
Rykker Bow wrote:


1. Have you ever had an audit
2. Will you get an audit
3. Has Paragon Capital ever been audited
4. How many of investors on the list of the Paragon business are in the same set of corp/alliance?

These and the previous points I think should be considered in the risk profile of this bond. The risk profile of the last bond spiked hard when you went from 5b to over 20b. Investors are a cautious bunch and don't like drastic changes.


Rykker,

I may be able to answer a few of the questions. Though I am not involved in this bond beyond passive investing. I have already pledged 1/3 of it. I wanted to do 20B but Asura07 said no. That's beside the point though. So Paragon Capital was my baby and most questions I can answer. It never had an audit - though I was never against an audit. In regards to investors we had over 90 investors - of which many were organic (inside our alliances, groups of friends, etc) and the rest outside. I would say that it was 60/40. We shut it down and I began to prepare for other things. Each of us went off to our own thing. Asura07 went off to low sec with another corp and I closed down Paragon Capital and stayed in Jita. So while Asura07 was involved in Paragon as a trader, with full access to the wallet, he didn't really handle the investor list. I did.

Now in regards to the first bond going over 20B - that is because many of our former investors still want to work with people that they know and trust, that they worked with for almost a year. So when Asura07approached me about a bond I told him I would put in originally half the bond, but then another investor wanted to do 10B and it snowballed from there. In fact I believe that Asura07 had to turn away investors. So with this bond I believe that he wanted to give the public a chance, beyond the big pockets of his private investor friends. I doubt this bond will go beyond 30B, but I think it is a fine idea in order to allow others who may have an interest in investing to do so. I know that if it doesn't come close to thirty, that I'll fulfill the other 10B that he currently lacks.

One caveat, is that in posing your questions you should perhaps list that you are a bond person yourself and not at all interested in this bond, being, I suppose a competitor for customer base. Though your questions are seemingly amicable, there is of course a conflict of interest and not an altogether altruistic reason behind your questioning.
Rykker Bow
Center for Advanced Studies
#11 - 2012-06-09 03:40:04 UTC
Gei'neille wrote:

Rykker,

I may be able to answer a few of the questions. Though I am not involved in this bond beyond passive investing. I have already pledged 1/3 of it. I wanted to do 20B but Asura07 said no. That's beside the point though. So Paragon Capital was my baby and most questions I can answer. It never had an audit - though I was never against an audit. In regards to investors we had over 90 investors - of which many were organic (inside our alliances, groups of friends, etc) and the rest outside. I would say that it was 60/40. We shut it down and I began to prepare for other things. Each of us went off to our own thing. Asura07 went off to low sec with another corp and I closed down Paragon Capital and stayed in Jita. So while Asura07 was involved in Paragon as a trader, with full access to the wallet, he didn't really handle the investor list. I did.

Now in regards to the first bond going over 20B - that is because many of our former investors still want to work with people that they know and trust, that they worked with for almost a year. So when Asura07approached me about a bond I told him I would put in originally half the bond, but then another investor wanted to do 10B and it snowballed from there. In fact I believe that Asura07 had to turn away investors. So with this bond I believe that he wanted to give the public a chance, beyond the big pockets of his private investor friends. I doubt this bond will go beyond 30B, but I think it is a fine idea in order to allow others who may have an interest in investing to do so. I know that if it doesn't come close to thirty, that I'll fulfill the other 10B that he currently lacks.

One caveat, is that in posing your questions you should perhaps list that you are a bond person yourself and not at all interested in this bond, being, I suppose a competitor for customer base. Though your questions are seemingly amicable, there is of course a conflict of interest and not an altogether altruistic reason behind your questioning.



My only reason for questioning the proposal was to provide infomation to the community; to provide transparency in lieu of an audit. Asura07, and yourself, have answered those questions and I believe the investors are better able to assess the bond. In no way was it in the spirit of competition of trying to solicit investors away from this bond toward my own as I am in a position of having to turn away willing investors on a regular basis.

Apart from that, the information is appreciated

The Mjolnir Bloc - Lowsec PvP for the sophisticated - The Mjolnir Bloc Killboards
Gei'neille
Paragon Group
#12 - 2012-06-09 03:58:03 UTC
Rykker Bow wrote:
Gei'neille wrote:

Rykker,

I may be able to answer a few of the questions. Though I am not involved in this bond beyond passive investing. I have already pledged 1/3 of it. I wanted to do 20B but Asura07 said no. That's beside the point though. So Paragon Capital was my baby and most questions I can answer. It never had an audit - though I was never against an audit. In regards to investors we had over 90 investors - of which many were organic (inside our alliances, groups of friends, etc) and the rest outside. I would say that it was 60/40. We shut it down and I began to prepare for other things. Each of us went off to our own thing. Asura07 went off to low sec with another corp and I closed down Paragon Capital and stayed in Jita. So while Asura07 was involved in Paragon as a trader, with full access to the wallet, he didn't really handle the investor list. I did.

Now in regards to the first bond going over 20B - that is because many of our former investors still want to work with people that they know and trust, that they worked with for almost a year. So when Asura07approached me about a bond I told him I would put in originally half the bond, but then another investor wanted to do 10B and it snowballed from there. In fact I believe that Asura07 had to turn away investors. So with this bond I believe that he wanted to give the public a chance, beyond the big pockets of his private investor friends. I doubt this bond will go beyond 30B, but I think it is a fine idea in order to allow others who may have an interest in investing to do so. I know that if it doesn't come close to thirty, that I'll fulfill the other 10B that he currently lacks.

One caveat, is that in posing your questions you should perhaps list that you are a bond person yourself and not at all interested in this bond, being, I suppose a competitor for customer base. Though your questions are seemingly amicable, there is of course a conflict of interest and not an altogether altruistic reason behind your questioning.



My only reason for questioning the proposal was to provide infomation to the community; to provide transparency in lieu of an audit. Asura07, and yourself, have answered those questions and I believe the investors are better able to assess the bond. In no way was it in the spirit of competition of trying to solicit investors away from this bond toward my own as I am in a position of having to turn away willing investors on a regular basis.

Apart from that, the information is appreciated


Rykker,

I apologize if you feel that I came across as accusing you of anything less than the most honorable intentions with your line of questioning. I, of course, felt it necessary, to ensure that the community also knew that you are a player with bonds that has zero intention of investing. I suppose that those who do care to invest may want to ask those types of questions, but being someone who has a public bond, you will not be investing. I for one, am invested. I know that Asura07 has not had an audit. I know what markets he is trading in, and I have a full API key that I am using to track his NAV, his progress, and my money. I don't want to hijack my friend's bond page for a discussion about this - but I think my point is clear and I apologize for any offense that you may have taken. Can't wait to invest in one of your high yield opportunities too.
Vulcan23
New Eden Advanced Experiments
#13 - 2012-06-09 12:39:13 UTC
A couple of points:

First off, this is really not the way to go about broadening your investor base. You started with a big bond which was predicated on trust earned in a private sphere and which catered entirely to a circle of individuals with private reasons to trust you. The first bond started with no reasons for public investors to trust you and ended with even fewer. The number of reasons for public investors to trust you have diminished even further with the current bond. I'm not saying that it is a bad idea full-stop or that there is no reason to track purely private financial transactions on MD but the idea that this public display of taking money from friends and giving it back to friends should encourage anyone that doesn't already know you to invest is flawed. Of course, that does not mean it won't encourage anyone to invest, it just shouldn't.

Secondly, this lack of reasons to trust you is compounded by the absence of an audit and an unwillingness to pursue one. An audit is pretty much your only hope for bridging the gap between private trust and public trust as it is the only way to show public investors that the private investors were right to trust you in the first place.

In general, these offers have shown little awareness of how the MD investment market works and also little concern for the interests of public investors. As Rykker pointed out, shifting or uncapped investment limits might be cool for the borrower but they add ridiculous extra risks for an investor, especially one who doesn't know you privately and only has a limited amount of data on which to base his risk assessment. No sensible investor will risk investing in someone unknown if they don't know how big the bond will be as bond size is one of the best indicators of risk. In addition, the current setup looks more or less identical to one of the classic structures for a scam (possibly fake investors pumping up an offering to give it a perceived credibility it does not deserve) and you are not taking any steps to differentiate it from such an offer.

Finally, the comments to Rykker about conflict of interest really show how little understanding of the bond market is involved in the offer. Typically those with successful track records of providing high-quality investments have been at the forefront of trying to keep the bond market working well. There is very little competition for investor isk since eve is drowning in spare money and solid investments are few and far between. There is really no need at all to try to push anyone else out of the market. Rykker is worth listening to because he has bent over backwards to provide good investment opportunities and to do as much as possible to make his investors' lives smooth and happy so rather than responding to his questions and comments with comments that are meant to signal to the reader that he shouldn't be taken too seriously (a tactic that crops up frequently in dubious offerings) you would be much better off asking him for advice on how to proceed.

RAW
SetrakDark
Doomheim
#14 - 2012-06-09 13:15:34 UTC
lol

owned
Rykker Bow
Center for Advanced Studies
#15 - 2012-06-09 14:42:28 UTC
well said, succintly put and mirrors my thougths as well RAW.

The Mjolnir Bloc - Lowsec PvP for the sophisticated - The Mjolnir Bloc Killboards
Cheeba Don
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2012-06-09 14:52:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Cheeba Don
Asura07 wrote:

First, you are right that it is a very large collateralized bond, and I'm not familiar with any out there that are this large.


Im running one if it's of any relevance.

and its actually not a scam.

You can follow its progress here if interested.
Gavin Nordoff
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2012-06-10 19:34:28 UTC
In for 500M

Confirming I was also in Paragon alliance and invested when Gei'neille was running a bond.
Kr'All Brinknoor
No-Mercy
Shadow Ultimatum
#18 - 2012-06-10 20:56:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Kr'All Brinknoor
Put me down for 2.5 BISK, please.
Asura07
Dark Matter Investments
#19 - 2012-06-10 23:42:36 UTC
Kr'All Brinknoor wrote:
Put me down for 2.5 BISK, please.


Done. Thank you!

6.5B Remaining
Asura07
Dark Matter Investments
#20 - 2012-06-15 21:39:52 UTC
There is currently 1.5B remaining to reserve. This bond was originally scheduled to start today and would be nice to have it do so. So any takers?
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