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Am I safe jumping through lowsec and nullsec (i.e., just passing through)

Author
Jonas Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2012-06-08 14:05:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonas Altol
This point after much reading is still unclear to me. If I want to travel through a lowsec or nullsec system to get to a particular destination, how safe am I. All I am doing is jumping through (i.e., not visiting any asteroid belts, not putzing around looking for trouble, no autopilot - just getting in and out as quickly as possible enroute elsewhere).

To try to resolve this question I have looked into the components of traveling into and then out of a system:

  1. You jump in and are cloaked (i.e., invulnerable for about 60 seconds)
  2. You align to the gate that you will be using to jump out
  3. You warp to that gate
  4. You decelerate out of warp
  5. You jump to your next system


Now it would seem to me that during point 1 above, you have no worries. At point 2, as you are aligning to warp, you have a window of opportunity for someone to lock your ship and use a warp jammer (disrupter or scrambler) on you. However, can they do this fast enough? If you have pretty fast alignment, because your have trained up your Evasive Maneuvering skill and your ship itself is a frigate or say destroyer it will align and warp relatively quickly. Am I wrong in this?

For step 3 you are in warp and presumably untouchable.

For step 4, there is again a window of opportunity as you are decelerating out of warp before you jump. Can others strike you in this window, it seems longer than the window in step 2, but I am not sure if someone can preven you from jumping with a warp jammer. So, it seems to me that you might take a little damage but will still manage to jump out of the system before you are destroyed, unless there is an entire fleet shooting at you.

Now, I'm still a relative newb, so please explain to me if my logic above if flawed.
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#2 - 2012-06-08 14:14:47 UTC
In lowsec, 2 is the only time you're at all vulnerable, that is when the tacklers of any gate-camp you go through will try to lock you. A frigate or decently-quick aligning cruiser won't have much issue just warping away. It's not 100% perfect, now and then there'll be a really good camp that'll get lucky, but I feel no more in danger flying through lowsec gate-to-gate in a frig than I do in highsec. In step 4, you're not vulnerable because you're still untargetable while your speed is showing "warping". If you spam "Jump" as you finish decelerating, there's nothing they can do. And, no, points don't stop you from jumping.

Nullsec complicates things a bit, due to bubbles. They can make 4/5 take minutes instead of seconds (by dropping you out of warp minutes away from jumping (rather than seconds). This can be mostly alleviated by being smart about bouncing off of celestials. If you know how to bounce properly, then null is almost as safe as lowsec in a frigate. (bouncing is when you go to a planet or safespot which isn't in line with the target gate and anything else and then warp to the gate so that any drag bubbles don't catch you).

Of course, it gets exponentially less safe as you fly bigger ships with slower align time.

My advice: try flying around in lowsec for a while in a T1 frig. Worst case, you lose it. Best case, you learn lowsec isn't as scary as people make it out to be, so long as you don't dawdle around and wait to be caught.

Best of luck.
Jonas Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2012-06-08 14:34:01 UTC
You've confirmed my suspicions about lowsec at least - It's not as scarry a place to jump through as people make it out to be!
Major Trant
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2012-06-08 14:58:06 UTC
Lowsec is pretty safe in a small ship just travelling from gate to gate, because few people will bother to engage you on a gate due to the fact that to attack you there will start the gate guns firing at them. To catch a small ship requires something fast locking, but something fast locking usually doesn't have the tank to withstand the gate guns.

But there are of course exceptions. It is possible to catch a small ship during phase 2. and with remote sensor boosters a larger tankier ship can do it. In addition it is possible to catch someone at both phase 2 and 5 using a smart bombing battleship which doesn't have to lock you before causing damage. Rancer is known for smart bombing gate camps, but that camp is not as permanent as some scare mongers will have you believe. I've passed through Rancer several times and I've yet to see it (famous last words). Your friend is the in game map, check ship and pod kills in the last hour and last 24 hours when planning your route.

Null is completely different due to bubbles. If you jump into a bubble and are not in a covops ship your chance of burning out of the bubble and getting to warp are slim. If you are fitted with a non covert cloak your chances are much improved but still quite high that you will be uncloaked, killed and podded. Your best bet in those circumstances is to MWD back to the gate and jump back.

At the other end of warp during phase 4, you have another danger from bubbles. They can pull you out of warp early or if placed behind the gate, will actually suck you right past the gate into them. In both cases you will most likely end up 70 or 80 Kms from the gate, too close to warp but too far to burn with one of more HACs in close proximity ready to take you down. Your only hope in these cases is a cloak, again the covops ship has a good chance of getting out, with any sort of other cloak giving a small chance (due to the fact that they gimp your burn speed). Your best chance of avoiding getting caught this way is to warp to a celestral first, not directly from your in gate. The bubble has to be inline with your warp path to catch you. As you travel through null, get in the habit of setting up purch bookmarks 200Km above or below each gate you pass through. Warping to them will avoid the bubbles. Do not think that warping to 100 from the gate will save you. If you land on grid with an inline bubble, it will suck you into it.

To summerise, travel through low is pretty safe in a small ship, but occassionally you will be unluckly. Travelling through null is much more dangerous, perhaps 30% of the time you will be caught, unless you're in a covops ship.
Jonas Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2012-06-08 15:08:25 UTC
Wow guys thanks for all the great advice! It is wonderful to have so many supportive people going beyond the question that I asked and offering real world advice on how to travel more safely.
Arch Stanton's Neighbour
Forceful Resource Acquisition Inc
#6 - 2012-06-08 15:29:00 UTC
Instalocking, remote sensor boosted hictors.

No amount of warp stabs will save you.
highonpop
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#7 - 2012-06-08 17:05:12 UTC
Navigating lowsec in a dessy or frigate is pretty easy. as long as you dont auto-pilot or go AFK on a gate, the only way you will die is it you get smart bombed. I landed on a SB gate camp once. They see you in local and immediately start smart bombing.


Nullsec you just have to watch out for bubbles!!

FC, what do?

Jonas Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2012-06-08 18:36:21 UTC
But is it cost effective to smart bomb frigates/destroyers and can my shielding "stomach" it?
Lost Greybeard
Drunken Yordles
#9 - 2012-06-08 18:42:58 UTC
Nullsec - no. You are not safe "just passing through", primarily due to bubbles, without having previously laid a course along your path with off-gate bookmarks, etc.

Lowsec - yes. Qualified in that this "yes" is a "you're as safe as you are passing through high-sec" not "nothing can ever touch you". The effort required to catch and 'splode someone warping to 0 in low-sec is about equivalent to the effort required to suicide people on gates in high-- people won't find it worthwhile + possible unless you're hauling something valuable ain a slow-aligning ship.
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#10 - 2012-06-08 19:04:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Baneken
Other thing about bubbles if it's a large or medium you will in most cases retain your covert ops cloak when you land on it, small bubble how ever is so small that it decloaks and keeps your BR from being cloaked long enough to ensure that you will die before you burn out of the bubble.
Pinstar Colton
Sweet Asteroid Acres
#11 - 2012-06-08 19:05:10 UTC
In low you live and die with #2.

Your goal is to align and warp as fast as possible. With little ships, you have little to worry about. With bigger ones you need to guard against two things.

Stabs in the lows can save you from a scramble...up to a point.
A tank can help you survive an alpha salvo....maybe. (It makes enough of a difference that it is worth fitting)

Lastly you have your biggest weakness: the bump.
Unless you have a MWD and they are all painfully slow, if someone bumps you, you are generally toast. No amount of STABs will prevent bumping, and a thick tank will get burned down since the pirates don't have to kill you in just one shot. Your only defense against a bump is just having a fast enough align/warp to escape before the bumper can ram you.

In the cat-and-mouse game that is low sec, there is no shame in learning to be a better mouse.

Louis deGuerre
The Dark Tribe
#12 - 2012-06-08 20:10:47 UTC
Remember Murphy's Law :
The one time you take a shortcut trough lowsec in a frigate there will be 4 Abaddons smartbombing at the gate.
Lost my first set of +4 implants (ca. 125M isk) like that.
Zoyx Ruhroh
A-OK Logistics and Fabrication
StoneGuard Alliance
#13 - 2012-06-08 22:23:27 UTC
There should be a race of the noobs through null sec. Rookie ships only with a set jump order, lol.
Adaam Ikalaa
Doomheim
#14 - 2012-06-09 06:41:41 UTC
Good information!! :)

If you waste today, you've wasted one of the last days of your life.

Nerath Naaris
Pink Winged Unicorns for Peace Love and Anarchy
#15 - 2012-06-09 07:17:50 UTC
Note that you can always use your d-scan to check if someone is at the destination gate.
If no celestial or other warpable entity is within the 14 AU of that gate to make this d-scan, you can also empty your cap so that you do not warp entirely but stop somewhere in deep space, hopefully within scanning range. You do this by initiating warp then cancelling it.

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Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#16 - 2012-06-09 10:30:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Iria Ahrens
Ok, now here's a related question. Spamming gates with trash to autodecloak people coming through. One person said that has been nerfed or is only doable in null. Is this considered an exploit or valid tactic? Anyone have a firm answer? I know people used to surround gates with corpses so there was no way to get through cloaked.

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Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-06-09 10:49:59 UTC
Jonas Altol wrote:


  1. You jump in and are cloaked (i.e., invulnerable for about 60 seconds)




False. You can be decloaked during this time.

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Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#18 - 2012-06-09 10:51:06 UTC
Iria Ahrens wrote:
Ok, now here's a related question. Spamming gates with trash to autodecloak people coming through. One person said that has been nerfed or is only doable in null. Is this considered an exploit or valid tactic? Anyone have a firm answer? I know people used to surround gates with corpses so there was no way to get through cloaked.


AFAIK it's only an exploit when used to created vast ammounts of lag.

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Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
#19 - 2012-06-09 13:36:46 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Iria Ahrens wrote:
Ok, now here's a related question. Spamming gates with trash to autodecloak people coming through. One person said that has been nerfed or is only doable in null. Is this considered an exploit or valid tactic? Anyone have a firm answer? I know people used to surround gates with corpses so there was no way to get through cloaked.


AFAIK it's only an exploit when used to created vast ammounts of lag.


Yup. I saw a very effective, non lag producing 'gate-trash-decloaking' setup a few weeks ago and some people petitioned it and it came back as 'nothing wrong with it, it's ok'.


To the OP there are a few other things you may want to do before taking a trip down,

- Check on Dotlan how volatile the systems are you going to pass through (or find a way around).
- And check in game the star map.

Click on the star map tab, click on statistics, and click on the following options one at a time:

- average pilots in the space in the last 30 minutes
- escape pods destroyed in the last hour
- jumps in the last hour
- number of pilots currently docked and active
- ships destroyed in the last hour

This usually will give you a good indication of how much trouble may be on your road.


Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#20 - 2012-06-09 19:18:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Jonas Altol wrote:


  1. You jump in and are cloaked (i.e., invulnerable for about 60 seconds)




False. You can be decloaked during this time.

No, you can't.

Your gate cloak is immune to everything, which includes any means of decloaking you and AOE damage from smartbombs/bombs.

E: Lowsec is mostly safe in a small fast ship for the reasons given above. However, if you're asking because you've noticed there's a shortcut to get from highsec A to highsec B then you'll be passing through any one of several well known chokepoint systems. These will have a gatecamp on them setup to catch anything, so they are not advised.

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