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Why some of us don't PVP as much as we'd like to, and what can be done to fix that.
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Viktor Goldheart
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-06-08 13:55:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Viktor Goldheart
A good way to make people like me get into PVP way more is to remove attribute implants from the game, and if possible the whole attribute system, all it does is cause headaches and petitions.

And don't start with the "but you have jump clones" bullshit, jump clones have a HUGE timer, and by the time the timer expires, there is already another fleet I have to get into the next day, and it's basically like not being in a +4clone at all.

Not to mention that every time a fleet is made, 80 % of the people on ANY alliance's comms go like "sorry, but my clone timer is not ready..." which leads to less PVP.

So the fixes to this BS would be:

1) Remove attribute implants and just give +5 to everyone from the start, permanently.

OR

2) Remove attribute implants AND THE WHOLE ATTRIBUTE SYSTEM, and just have set training times from 1 to 5 on all skill tiers to balance it. (hardwires would just have their attribute bonus removed, easy).

OR

3) Make pods immune to warp bubbles (make up a lore reason like "They are too small for the frequency of the sphere to affect their warp drive, which is a special, miniaturized Jovian version), because getting caught in a bubble when your ship explodes pretty much means that you will get podded 99% of the time, hell, it even happens on the test server where there is no real need to pod people. Catching and killing a pod should be a difficult and rewarding task, not just a kill you basically get offered on a silver platter if the pod is in a bubble. They are, after all, MADE to protect it's occupant's life.

OR

4) Make the jump clone timer way less, like 6 hours, and that could be lowered to 1 hour by training a skill to lvl 5, -1 hour per level.

OR

5) Add a way to be able to remove your implant sets for a fee, or add an "implant hub" that can hold a whole implant set, and that can be removed at will, but doesn't allow hardwires to be plugged in if the hub is not in use.

Also it is not fair that high sec care bears, who do nothing but **** the economy up by causing inflation, get to stay in their +4 and +5 implants and super pimped out faction ships, 100% safe, and not do anything but make more and more money, and train skills very fast with no risk, get to do all that.

I understand that attribute implants are supposed to be an ISK sink, but wouldn't a ship crew system where you would have to pay a salary to your crew every month be a better ISK sink?

At least that way everyone would have to spend money, not just people who want to PVP, while care bears and traders get stinking rich.

It is absolutely stupid that we have to worry about losing our ships and fittings and 120+ million Isk for the attribute implant sets most of us use (+4) + our expensive clones every time we get podded, just for the sake of not training slowly as hell.

Seriously, flying a BS or a stealth bomber or a BC or interceptor tackler in a fleet, and basically losing 4-500 mil worth of ISKper death is bullshit, some of us have real lives and we can't afford to lose crap tons of isk like that.

Thank you for reading.
Price Check Aisle3
#2 - 2012-06-08 13:58:30 UTC
Ahah! You're the alt of the alt who posted the pod thread, aren't you!

/If it weren't for you meddling kids! :shakes fist:
  • Karl Hobb IATS
Viktor Goldheart
Doomheim
#3 - 2012-06-08 14:01:53 UTC
Price Check Aisle3 wrote:
Ahah! You're the alt of the alt who posted the pod thread, aren't you!

/If it weren't for you meddling kids! :shakes fist:


Yeah, I decided to make a thread for it because it was too obscure in the other one.

Actually I am the alt of Freezehunter, who is forum banned due to err "personal attacks".
Which is ******** if you think about it, since I can post on the same account with my 2 alts.
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#4 - 2012-06-08 14:04:50 UTC
Awesome, my new favorite vid is somehow relevant. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyPyh9Qtawk <-lots of swearing in russian w/ subtitles....your fragile minds have been warned.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 
Morganta
The Greater Goon
#5 - 2012-06-08 14:05:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Morganta
so you're mad because you got podded with a full set of +5s and come here to make up some crap story that the removal of said items will improve pvp?

wouldn't it simply improve your lossmails?

if CCP wanted to get more people to pvp they would grant us hulls on a monthly basis or a monthly stipend for all paying (cash, not plex) customers so we can afford to pvp and not have to hold down a space job to do it
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-06-08 14:09:09 UTC
From a personal perspective, I could make a few suggestions:

1. I would like to see winning/losing determined more by player skill than character skillpoints. The old wives' tale of EVE is that SP doesn't matter. To this, I propose a simple challenge. Two characters. One with 500 SP, with best ship, modules and implants possible. Other with 50 million SP, again with the best ship, modules and implants possible. Give them to two total noobs. Have them duel, and switch places after each fight. You will find that in 90% of the cases the 50 mil SP char will win, hands down.

2. EVE has a longish "recovery period". That is, time after a loss that you spend recovering from it, and usually not having any fun doing it. Some games have a very short or even nonexistent recovery period - you simply respawn X seconds later and your "punishment" for dying is having to travel back to the front line. In EVE, you have to re-ship, re-fit, re-arm and then travel. And that's assuming you can afford to do that in the first place.

Now, different games took different approaches. Personally I quite liked what Pirates of the Burning Sea did, that's a game that I like to call EVE Lite. It's very similar in many ways, but its combat is a LOT more player skill based and tactical than EVE's. You also lose ships there. But you could use a ship deed item to "reload" your ship. That is, you had a Xebec. If you used a deed (item that creates or assembles another such Xebec) on your current Xebec, you could have Xebec (2). That meant, if you got sunk, you wouldn't have to re-ship. You would just find yourself in a nearest port in the same Xebec, only it would be down to Xebec (1). As such, the loss was tangible and expensive, but recovery period was considerably shorter.

For example, in preparation for a night of PvP, I would leave port in a Xebec (4). And yeah, by the end of the night I sometimes ended up with nothing. But the amount of time I spent recovering from a loss and not having any fun during it (which is doubly true for EVE, because I would also have to battle its horrendous UI) was minimal. As a result, the game felt a lot more fun and more full of action.

These are just shooting from the hip reasons why I'm not crazy about EVE's PvP.
Aliaksandre
Screaming Hayabusa
#7 - 2012-06-08 14:09:41 UTC
Implants are a very poor excuse to not PVP.
Viktor Goldheart
Doomheim
#8 - 2012-06-08 14:10:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Viktor Goldheart
Morganta wrote:
so you're mad because you got podded with a full set of +5s and come here to make up some crap story that the removal of said items will improve pvp?

wouldn't it simply improve your lossmails?

if CCP wanted to get more people to pvp they would grant us hulls on a monthly basis or a monthly stipend for all paying (cash, not plex) customers so we can afford to pvp and not have to hold down a space job to do it


Personally, I don't give half a **** about loss mails, friend, I am not a kill board whore.

What I do care about is my wallet being 300 mils more empty every time I lose a Stealth Bomber or a Drake.
AFK Hauler
State War Academy
#9 - 2012-06-08 14:15:05 UTC
Viktor Goldheart wrote:
Morganta wrote:
so you're mad because you got podded with a full set of +5s and come here to make up some crap story that the removal of said items will improve pvp?

wouldn't it simply improve your lossmails?

if CCP wanted to get more people to pvp they would grant us hulls on a monthly basis or a monthly stipend for all paying (cash, not plex) customers so we can afford to pvp and not have to hold down a space job to do it


Personally, I don't give half a **** about loss mails, friend, I am not a kill board *****.

What I do care about is my wallet being 300 mils more empty every time I lose a Stealth Bomber or a Drake.



Come now, use a jump clone...

(You know someone was going to say it because it's true)
Virgil Travis
Non Constructive Self Management
#10 - 2012-06-08 14:15:29 UTC
It's your choice to use implants, if you can't get your pod out in low sec then it's not everyone else's problem. As was pointed out in the other thread, there are only a few situations in low sec where you should be losing your pod, otherwise your precious implants should be in little danger.

If you find it too expensive to use implants and pvp then just don't use them, don't expect CCP to make that choice for you. Every choice has consequences. Jump clones are fine, perhaps the timer could be reduced a little to make them less awkward but if you're so obsessed with getting every minute of optimal training time then you'll need to learn to get your pod out, it's not difficult.

Unified Church of the Unobligated - madness in the method Mamma didn't raise no victims.
Bloutok
Perkone
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-06-08 14:15:57 UTC
Aliaksandre wrote:
Implants are a very poor excuse to not PVP.



One more person who think he is right and thus everyone else can only be wrong.
Savage Angel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2012-06-08 14:15:57 UTC
So jump to a clone with +2 implants to go pew pew, replace as necessary, then jump back to your +4 or 5 clone when you are on an extended PvE stint. Like I am while doing a bit of Standings repair. (my Amarr standing was a bit, shall we say, low.)
Bloutok
Perkone
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-06-08 14:19:34 UTC
Virgil Travis wrote:
If you find it too expensive to use implants and pvp then just don't use them, don't expect CCP to make that choice for you.


So. There is only 1 option. Do not use the implants. The option to not PVP does not exist at all......

And, hypocrite can wear this hat. For years, pod would rarely if not ever explode. It was wrong then, i guess ?
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-06-08 14:20:11 UTC
A better solution than removing the implants would be cutting the period between clone jumps, the only related issue I have with PvPing sometimes is I don't want to be in the jump clone for 24 hours, Make it 4 or 3 hours and I'd do more evening roams
Tobiaz
Spacerats
#15 - 2012-06-08 14:21:07 UTC
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Awesome, my new favorite vid is somehow relevant. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyPyh9Qtawk <-lots of swearing in russian w/ subtitles....your fragile minds have been warned.


That made my day! Lol

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!
Aliaksandre
Screaming Hayabusa
#16 - 2012-06-08 14:21:38 UTC
Bloutok wrote:
Aliaksandre wrote:
Implants are a very poor excuse to not PVP.



One more person who think he is right and thus everyone else can only be wrong.


Wow the level of reason you possess is tremendously low.

My point is, OP is trying to fight a game mechanic that he absolutely does not have to utilize. PVP is not dependent on using implants. If your reason for avoiding PVP is because you want to fill your head with million of isk, then well, sorry, that is your decision.

CCP does not and should not alter the game because YOU don't want to lose isk you clearly can't afford to lose.
Virgil Travis
Non Constructive Self Management
#17 - 2012-06-08 14:25:21 UTC
Bloutok wrote:
Virgil Travis wrote:
If you find it too expensive to use implants and pvp then just don't use them, don't expect CCP to make that choice for you.


So. There is only 1 option. Do not use the implants. The option to not PVP does not exist at all......

And, hypocrite can wear this hat. For years, pod would rarely if not ever explode. It was wrong then, i guess ?


You have that choice too, up to you really. If you have a problem losing a few skill points per hour then stick with your implants and don't risk them in pvp. If you can let go and not be quite so bothered about reducing your skill training speed for a while, maybe using a couple of +2s or +3s for the two attributes you're currently training with then it doesn't cut the training rate so much and you can go enjoy some pvp.

In the end if implants are stopping you from going out for pvp that's your choice, nobody else's. Don't lay it on CCP and ask them to change the game for everyone else to suit you.

Unified Church of the Unobligated - madness in the method Mamma didn't raise no victims.
Viktor Goldheart
Doomheim
#18 - 2012-06-08 14:26:30 UTC
Virgil Travis wrote:
It's your choice to use implants, if you can't get your pod out in low sec then it's not everyone else's problem. As was pointed out in the other thread, there are only a few situations in low sec where you should be losing your pod, otherwise your precious implants should be in little danger.

If you find it too expensive to use implants and pvp then just don't use them, don't expect CCP to make that choice for you. Every choice has consequences. Jump clones are fine, perhaps the timer could be reduced a little to make them less awkward but if you're so obsessed with getting every minute of optimal training time then you'll need to learn to get your pod out, it's not difficult.



If you bothered to read my post before posting, you'd see that I am talking about 0.0, and last time I checked, 0.0 had BUBBLES, which a pod CANNOT escape.

I would gladly PVP in 0.0 a lot more, even in my +4 clone if I knew that there wasn't a 100% chance to lose my pod when in a bubble.
Viktor Goldheart
Doomheim
#19 - 2012-06-08 14:29:11 UTC
Aliaksandre wrote:
Bloutok wrote:
Aliaksandre wrote:
Implants are a very poor excuse to not PVP.



One more person who think he is right and thus everyone else can only be wrong.


Wow the level of reason you possess is tremendously low.

My point is, OP is trying to fight a game mechanic that he absolutely does not have to utilize. PVP is not dependent on using implants. If your reason for avoiding PVP is because you want to fill your head with million of isk, then well, sorry, that is your decision.

CCP does not and should not alter the game because YOU don't want to lose isk you clearly can't afford to lose.


Oh, so training my skills at a decent speed is something I don't have to utilize right?

It's perfectly fine for parasite care bears to stay in their +4 and +5 clones for years on end, and never lose them, and train at full speed, while I get penalized for PVPing.

Your logic, there is none.
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
#20 - 2012-06-08 14:29:22 UTC
Viktor Goldheart wrote:
A good way to make people like me get into PVP way more is to remove attribute implants from the game, and if possible the whole attribute system, all it does is cause headaches and petitions.

And don't start with the "but you have jump clones" bullshit, jump clones have a HUGE timer, and by the time the timer expires, there is already another fleet I have to get into the next day, and it's basically like not being in a +4clone at all.

Not to mention that every time a fleet is made, 80 % of the people on ANY alliance's comms go like "sorry, but my clone timer is not ready..." which leads to less PVP.

So the fixes to this BS would be:

1) Remove attribute implants and just give +5 to everyone from the start, permanently.

OR

2) Remove attribute implants AND THE WHOLE ATTRIBUTE SYSTEM, and just have set training times from 1 to 5 on all skill tiers to balance it. (hardwires would just have their attribute bonus removed, easy).

OR

3) Make pods immune to warp bubbles (make up a lore reason like "They are too small for the frequency of the sphere to affect their warp drive, which is a special, miniaturized Jovian version), because getting caught in a bubble when your ship explodes pretty much means that you will get podded 99% of the time, hell, it even happens on the test server where there is no real need to pod people. Catching and killing a pod should be a difficult and rewarding task, not just a kill you basically get offered on a silver platter if the pod is in a bubble. They are, after all, MADE to protect it's occupant's life.

OR

4) Make the jump clone timer way less, like 6 hours, and that could be lowered to 1 hour by training a skill to lvl 5, -1 hour per level.

OR

5) Add a way to be able to remove your implant sets for a fee, or add an "implant hub" that can hold a whole implant set, and that can be removed at will, but doesn't allow hardwires to be plugged in if the hub is not in use.

Also it is not fair that high sec care bears, who do nothing but **** the economy up by causing inflation, get to stay in their +4 and +5 implants and super pimped out faction ships, 100% safe, and not do anything but make more and more money, and train skills very fast with no risk, get to do all that.

I understand that attribute implants are supposed to be an ISK sink, but wouldn't a ship crew system where you would have to pay a salary to your crew every month be a better ISK sink?

At least that way everyone would have to spend money, not just people who want to PVP, while care bears and traders get stinking rich.

It is absolutely stupid that we have to worry about losing our ships and fittings and 120+ million Isk for the attribute implant sets most of us use (+4) + our expensive clones every time we get podded, just for the sake of not training slowly as hell.

Seriously, flying a BS or a stealth bomber or a BC or interceptor tackler in a fleet, and basically losing 4-500 mil worth of ISKper death is bullshit, some of us have real lives and we can't afford to lose crap tons of isk like that.

Thank you for reading.


If you don't want to lose them, jump clone or don't fit, simples.

Why nerf it for those ppl who do want to use them. Also I don't think it would make any diff to PVP.


After implants what's next, expensive ships and modules ????



Tal
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