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Apocalypse cannot fit T2 Tachyon

Author
PinkKnife
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2012-06-06 19:02:46 UTC
Mira Lynne wrote:
Oh No! I Can't Fit a full rack of [Highest Tier Weapon] and [High PG Use Mod] and [Other High PG Use Mod] on [Ship] without [Fitting Mod]
Buff! BUUFFFF!

In all seriousness, thats the POINT of higher Tier Weapons - You need to make Sacrifices in exchange for better performance.



No. Difference being you can't fit 8 T2 tachyons at all on the ship by themselves.

Any other guns, you can fit 8 just fine and may have trouble with the rest of the modules.

With Tachyons, you cannot even fit JUST the guns, without a fitting module. No other weapon in the game requires a fitting module just to fit as intended.

With 0 low slots filled, and 0 medium slots filled, you use all of your powergrid and then some, fitting 8 T2 tachyons.

You do not have this problem with the highest tier projectiles, blasters, or rails. They can be TIGHT fits, but you can make it happen without fitting modules.

For what? Good range and good dps, but Rails give better range, and a better damage type. (compare a rohk dps to a beam apoc)

If i'm not mistaken a 425 rohk will do similar DPS numbers and not need a fitting module.
Wolfic
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2012-06-06 19:42:10 UTC
PinkKnife wrote:
Mira Lynne wrote:
Oh No! I Can't Fit a full rack of [Highest Tier Weapon] and [High PG Use Mod] and [Other High PG Use Mod] on [Ship] without [Fitting Mod]
Buff! BUUFFFF!

In all seriousness, thats the POINT of higher Tier Weapons - You need to make Sacrifices in exchange for better performance.



No. Difference being you can't fit 8 T2 tachyons at all on the ship by themselves.

Any other guns, you can fit 8 just fine and may have trouble with the rest of the modules.

With Tachyons, you cannot even fit JUST the guns, without a fitting module. No other weapon in the game requires a fitting module just to fit as intended.

With 0 low slots filled, and 0 medium slots filled, you use all of your powergrid and then some, fitting 8 T2 tachyons.

You do not have this problem with the highest tier projectiles, blasters, or rails. They can be TIGHT fits, but you can make it happen without fitting modules.

For what? Good range and good dps, but Rails give better range, and a better damage type. (compare a rohk dps to a beam apoc)

If i'm not mistaken a 425 rohk will do similar DPS numbers and not need a fitting module.


First the Apoc fits 8 guns versus 6 on the tempest, try to fit the largest weapons in all 8 highs on the tempest and you'll have the same problem. Tachs also have about a 10% advantage in DPS and a 30% improvement in tracking over 425mm rails. An Apoc with 2 damage mods will do more damage than a Rokh with 3.
Thelron
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#23 - 2012-06-06 20:06:42 UTC
Tachs actually have about a 20% base DPS advantage (or rather, the rails have about 80% of the base Tach multiplier/RoF), 425's are just slightly behind mega-beams (which fits with rails having the range advantage and lasers having the damage advantage, as 425's fire 10/8 further than the mega-beams). Tachs, incidentally, also have almost the same range as 425s.

Tachs are *not* equivalent to 425's and 1400s. They're bigger than either, much the same way that dual 250 rails are smaller than any of the long-ranged laser and projectile options.
Mira Lynne
State War Academy
Caldari State
#24 - 2012-06-07 01:02:35 UTC
PinkKnife wrote:
if i'm not mistaken a 425 rohk will do similar DPS numbers and not need a fitting module.

You are Mistaken. 425s are approximately equal to mega beams (Megas having more DPS and Tracking at the expense of Range) Tachyons do SIGNIFICANTLY more DPS than 425s at an only slightly reduced Range, and with much better Tracking.
In addition: For PvP, a Sniper Apoc doesnt need tank: Just Tachs and an MWD, rest should be damage and damage application mods. For PvE, Mega Beams STILL do more DPS, have still better tracking, and not that much less range for a significant reduction on fittings.
Working as Intended. Tachyons are for Max Gank/Range and are SUPPOSED to mean you fly either tankless or Damage Control Tank. If you want Tank, use Mega Beams. Or a Navy Apoc.

[u]I, too, horse frogs.[/u] Support the Return of Realistic Module Icons! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=114818&find=unread

Alara IonStorm
#25 - 2012-06-07 04:06:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Mira Lynne wrote:
For PvE, Mega Beams STILL do more DPS, have still better tracking, and not that much less range for a significant reduction on fittings.

T2 Megabeams can not be fit on the Apoc ether. They go over grid at max skill with nothing else fitted.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#26 - 2012-06-07 05:31:35 UTC
The outrageous fitting requirements of lasers are one of the major reasons why very few lasers armed ships are competitive. It would be super great if CCP would either actually make them good enough to warrant their absurd fitting requirements or reduce their fitting requirements so that amarr ships aren't quite so commonly fit with projectile turrets instead of the racial weapons they are bonused for.
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2012-06-07 10:03:52 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
The outrageous fitting requirements of lasers are one of the major reasons why very few lasers armed ships are competitive. It would be super great if CCP would either actually make them good enough to warrant their absurd fitting requirements or reduce their fitting requirements so that amarr ships aren't quite so commonly fit with projectile turrets instead of the racial weapons they are bonused for.


This and Alara. If you do the calculations, lasers do the least dps per point of grid used. If you correct for the naturally large grid in laser ships, they still do the least dps per point of grid used. At least for short range weapons with short range ammo. Dunno about the others.

This stuff doesn't matter because long range pvp is dead thanks to on-grid warping/probing. Long range weapons are only used for alpha, which means that arties are best by far.
Cardano Firesnake
Fire Bullet Inc
#28 - 2012-06-07 10:23:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Cardano Firesnake
Lunkwill Khashour wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
The outrageous fitting requirements of lasers are one of the major reasons why very few lasers armed ships are competitive. It would be super great if CCP would either actually make them good enough to warrant their absurd fitting requirements or reduce their fitting requirements so that amarr ships aren't quite so commonly fit with projectile turrets instead of the racial weapons they are bonused for.


This and Alara. If you do the calculations, lasers do the least dps per point of grid used. If you correct for the naturally large grid in laser ships, they still do the least dps per point of grid used. At least for short range weapons with short range ammo. Dunno about the others.

This stuff doesn't matter because long range pvp is dead thanks to on-grid warping/probing. Long range weapons are only used for alpha, which means that arties are best by far.


If you add the fact that lasers can't fire when you are out of capacitor whereas projectiles and missiles can, I find lasers not so excellent.

And Lasers do only EM and Thermal Damages... Hell Why did I choose Amarr as first choice ?? ;-)

Posted - 2010.07.01 11:24:00 - [4] Erase learning skills, remap all SP. That's all.

Maeltstome
Academy of the Unseen Arts
#29 - 2012-06-07 11:09:01 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Vilnius Zar wrote:
Sure, if they lower scorch range to be more in line with other short range weapons. Win some, lose some. Besides on a sniper you can fit them just fine, we've been doing so for years.


That would make already overpowered Barrage even more powerful.


because falloff = 100% dps ?

Please... lowest DPS of all guns that also fight in falloff for even less DPS. Minnie ships finally are being flown as an alternative to Gallente/Amarr and suddenly 'winmatar' whines start to appear.

Stop looking at EFT and peeing your pants and get into the real world.
Sebroth
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2012-06-07 12:34:12 UTC
give me a minmatar ship that can fitt this and I would be happy to let you fit your oversized guns on any ship without any kind of extra fitting needs. Shocked

=================================
"Hand of God" class battleship
=================================
8x 2200mm Artillery Cannons II

1x 100mn MicroWarpdrive II
2x Large Shield Extender II
2x Invulnerability Field II
1x EM Ward Field II

2x Gyrostabilizer II
2x Tracking Enhancer II
1x Damage Control II

3x Large Core Defence Field Extender I

and some drones
=================================

oh and almost forgot.

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage per level
5% shield resistance per level





Buzzmong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2012-06-07 14:48:05 UTC
The apoc should be able to fit 8x Megabeam II's on it, but certainly not 8x Tach II's without fitting mods.

Amarr are the only race with what's essentially a tier 4 gun in the form of the Tach.
PinkKnife
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2012-06-07 17:04:16 UTC  |  Edited by: PinkKnife
Buzzmong wrote:
The apoc should be able to fit 8x Megabeam II's on it, but certainly not 8x Tach II's without fitting mods.

Amarr are the only race with what's essentially a tier 4 gun in the form of the Tach.


It's also the only race with no Tier 2 or Tier 3.

Don't forget there are only Tachs, and Mega Beams. There is no third option for beam lasers.

I would be happy if they made a third option that was a nice compromise, but the sheer fact that you can't fit JUST the guns on any amarr ship without a fitting module is ridiculous. Tachs do NOT have enough intrinsic value to warrant needing a fitting module just to fly them. With the exception to the Oracle. Why does that ship get the ability to fit them but the battleships don't?

The argument isn't "I want sniper range DPS and tank"

The argument IS "I want to fit 8 guns as the ship is supposed to be able to fit"

You can not fit a sniper apoc with T2 tachs without a fitting module. The ship doesn't have the PG to fit the Tachyons alone, let alone any other modules.
Gally Alita
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#33 - 2012-06-07 17:53:13 UTC
Get a Naga and play like a boss
Alara IonStorm
#34 - 2012-06-07 18:12:35 UTC
PinkKnife wrote:

Don't forget there are only Tachs, and Mega Beams. There is no third option for beam lasers.

I would be happy if they made a third option that was a nice compromise, but the sheer fact that you can't fit JUST the guns on any amarr ship without a fitting module is ridiculous. Tachs do NOT have enough intrinsic value to warrant needing a fitting module just to fly them. With the exception to the Oracle. Why does that ship get the ability to fit them but the battleships don't?

Duel Heavy Beam Lasers.

Don't be surprised you haven't heard of them their is a reason for that.
Buzzmong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2012-06-07 19:46:13 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
PinkKnife wrote:

Don't forget there are only Tachs, and Mega Beams. There is no third option for beam lasers.

I would be happy if they made a third option that was a nice compromise, but the sheer fact that you can't fit JUST the guns on any amarr ship without a fitting module is ridiculous. Tachs do NOT have enough intrinsic value to warrant needing a fitting module just to fly them. With the exception to the Oracle. Why does that ship get the ability to fit them but the battleships don't?

Duel Heavy Beam Lasers.

Don't be surprised you haven't heard of them their is a reason for that.


Alara beat me to it.

The use of Dual Heavy Beam's is rare.
Wolfic
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2012-06-07 19:52:34 UTC
PinkKnife wrote:
Buzzmong wrote:
The apoc should be able to fit 8x Megabeam II's on it, but certainly not 8x Tach II's without fitting mods.

Amarr are the only race with what's essentially a tier 4 gun in the form of the Tach.


It's also the only race with no Tier 2 or Tier 3.

Don't forget there are only Tachs, and Mega Beams. There is no third option for beam lasers.

I would be happy if they made a third option that was a nice compromise, but the sheer fact that you can't fit JUST the guns on any amarr ship without a fitting module is ridiculous. Tachs do NOT have enough intrinsic value to warrant needing a fitting module just to fly them. With the exception to the Oracle. Why does that ship get the ability to fit them but the battleships don't?

The argument isn't "I want sniper range DPS and tank"

The argument IS "I want to fit 8 guns as the ship is supposed to be able to fit"

You can not fit a sniper apoc with T2 tachs without a fitting module. The ship doesn't have the PG to fit the Tachyons alone, let alone any other modules.

The apoc is a tier 2 battleship and the only tier 2 battleship that has 8 turrets. So fit 6 tachs and pretend you're in a Tempest, or fit 7 mega beams and pretend you're in a Megathron, the damage should come out fairly close.
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba
Crunchy Crunchy
#37 - 2012-06-07 20:53:11 UTC
Nightmare.... that is all.
Mavnas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2012-06-07 22:01:09 UTC
Why fit t2 Tachs anyway? You get maybe 10% damage out of it at the cost of a fitting mod. Or you can lose the fitting mod and get an extra heat sink for more damage than you just lost. You also spend less on the guns themselves. Not like T2 LR ammo is particularly great for lasers.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#39 - 2012-06-07 22:56:59 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:
because falloff = 100% dps ?

Please... lowest DPS of all guns that also fight in falloff for even less DPS. Minnie ships finally are being flown as an alternative to Gallente/Amarr and suddenly 'winmatar' whines start to appear.


No. Range.

Damage starts in falloff for lasers too. Cane has 30km range easily with Barrage. If range of Scorch crystal would get reduced lasers would be quite close to useless. Remember that Scroch is only reason short range lasers are competitive with other short range turrets.

Maeltstome wrote:
Stop looking at EFT and peeing your pants and get into the real world.


Well, actually I sit currently in my Cane. No offense taken. Cool
Veryez
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2012-06-08 05:57:40 UTC
Cardano Firesnake wrote:
Hello
The Apocalypse Battleship have Excllent bonuses to make him a sniper.
But it is impossible to fit eight T2 Tachyon on it without Reactor Control Unit or Ancillary Curent Router even with all skills at V.

I think it is really strange. It is as if creating a sport car without the place for a good motor.


Tachyons are designed to be in a league of their own, period. They are a league above 425's and 1400's:

http://www.eve-search.com/thread/80584/page/1#3


Every 3 or 4 years someone else brings this up....