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Hulk Insurance Services

Author
Sanadras Riahn
Turbo Nuclear Pirate Punch
#41 - 2012-06-06 09:53:16 UTC
Seems like an interesting idea, and I wish you luck with it! A couple questions for you:

1) Could I, as CEO of my extremely small corporation, pay for an insurance policy on a "Corporate-owned Hulk" that another pilot flies, and still file a claim so long as I've got the notifications from the player who lost it?

2) More of a suggestion, but perhaps to mitigate the loss to you, you could create a corporation with your name of choice, and perhaps try to garner some attention in the Market Discussions board and perhaps get some investments from other people? Then, put that money into reserve as an initial pool of money to pull claims from? You'd have to do some more paperwork on how investors would get a return on their money and when, but might help you get off the ground in the event that every individual you ever insure loses their Hulk all at once.

Either way, an innovative idea I don't think I've ever seen before in EVE, so best of luck!

Tradition defines and shapes a person, but should be evaluated frequently; far too often does Tradition no longer help, but hobble a person and stunt their growth. Especially a Capsuleer.

Hrothgar Nilsson
#42 - 2012-06-06 11:00:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrothgar Nilsson
Sanadras Riahn wrote:
Seems like an interesting idea, and I wish you luck with it! A couple questions for you:

1) Could I, as CEO of my extremely small corporation, pay for an insurance policy on a "Corporate-owned Hulk" that another pilot flies, and still file a claim so long as I've got the notifications from the player who lost it?

2) More of a suggestion, but perhaps to mitigate the loss to you, you could create a corporation with your name of choice, and perhaps try to garner some attention in the Market Discussions board and perhaps get some investments from other people? Then, put that money into reserve as an initial pool of money to pull claims from? You'd have to do some more paperwork on how investors would get a return on their money and when, but might help you get off the ground in the event that every individual you ever insure loses their Hulk all at once.

Either way, an innovative idea I don't think I've ever seen before in EVE, so best of luck!

If there were some way to know the specific Hulk being insured, but I don't think that's possible.

Otherwise I could run into the issue where I offer one policy to a member of a corporation, and a claim is filed when one of ten Hulks owned by members of that corporation is lost. Hulks don't have VINs and license plates like automobiles do.

So, in that example, I would receive one premium, and for the sake of argument assume the risk of loss for Hulks is equal, incur 10 times the risk.
Hrothgar Nilsson
#43 - 2012-06-06 11:44:56 UTC
Johnny Frecko wrote:
Remove the refund(or allow for half refunds at best) and you've eliminated the major "scammish" feeling from your business plan.

The main difference between my plan and a conventional full-coverage insurance plan is that what I'm offering is a risk pool.

Typically intergovernmental and intercorporate risk pools allow the refund of contributions. Some have caveats (requirement of minimum time enrolled), others do not.


Dezolf
DAX Action Stance
#44 - 2012-06-06 17:20:51 UTC
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:

Updates
  • Every 24 hours, the following information will be recorded on this thread:
  • ----the total insurance pool
    ----number of new policies
    ----number of canceled policies
    ----insurance payouts.
    ----note: these will be verifiable via the API ID & key provided at the bottom of this post.


So.. When has 24 hours passed?
Hrothgar Nilsson
#45 - 2012-06-06 17:23:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrothgar Nilsson
There's been no new information to record. Have updated OP accordingly.
Taji Taka
The Arcadian Sun
#46 - 2012-06-06 20:05:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Taji Taka
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:
Sanadras Riahn wrote:
Seems like an interesting idea, and I wish you luck with it! A couple questions for you:

1) Could I, as CEO of my extremely small corporation, pay for an insurance policy on a "Corporate-owned Hulk" that another pilot flies, and still file a claim so long as I've got the notifications from the player who lost it?

2) More of a suggestion, but perhaps to mitigate the loss to you, you could create a corporation with your name of choice, and perhaps try to garner some attention in the Market Discussions board and perhaps get some investments from other people? Then, put that money into reserve as an initial pool of money to pull claims from? You'd have to do some more paperwork on how investors would get a return on their money and when, but might help you get off the ground in the event that every individual you ever insure loses their Hulk all at once.

Either way, an innovative idea I don't think I've ever seen before in EVE, so best of luck!

If there were some way to know the specific Hulk being insured, but I don't think that's possible.

Otherwise I could run into the issue where I offer one policy to a member of a corporation, and a claim is filed when one of ten Hulks owned by members of that corporation is lost. Hulks don't have VINs and license plates like automobiles do.

So, in that example, I would receive one premium, and for the sake of argument assume the risk of loss for Hulks is equal, incur 10 times the risk.


Instead of insuring by Hulk you could insure it by corp member so only if that specific player loses a Hulk will it be covered and only once for that specific loss (they would need to re-insure that player again after 1 loss)...that way the client corp would need to insure all its active miners against loss...just a thought.
Dezolf
DAX Action Stance
#47 - 2012-06-06 20:13:28 UTC
Taji Taka wrote:
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:

So, in that example, I would receive one premium, and for the sake of argument assume the risk of loss for Hulks is equal, incur 10 times the risk.


Instead of insuring by Hulk you could insure it by corp member so only if that specific player loses a Hulk will it be covered and only once for that specific loss (they would need to re-insure that player again after 1 loss)...that way the client corp would need to insure all its active miners against loss...just a thought.


Which is not an insurance at all, since that one person could easily file a claim for any of his corp mates.

So, a single miner/corp mate/CEO just needs to purchase a single premium, and you incur the risk for all the hulks in his circle of acquaintance (or corpmates, friends, whatever)
Taji Taka
The Arcadian Sun
#48 - 2012-06-06 20:18:56 UTC
Dezolf wrote:
Taji Taka wrote:
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:

So, in that example, I would receive one premium, and for the sake of argument assume the risk of loss for Hulks is equal, incur 10 times the risk.


Instead of insuring by Hulk you could insure it by corp member so only if that specific player loses a Hulk will it be covered and only once for that specific loss (they would need to re-insure that player again after 1 loss)...that way the client corp would need to insure all its active miners against loss...just a thought.


Which is not an insurance at all, since that one person could easily file a claim for any of his corp mates.

So, a single miner/corp mate/CEO just needs to purchase a single premium, and you incur the risk for all the hulks in his circle of acquaintance (or corpmates, friends, whatever)


The claim is based on an API-verified kill report...so how is a single miner going to report a claim for everyone else who doesn't have an insurance policy when it's not his/her name on the kill report?
Dezolf
DAX Action Stance
#49 - 2012-06-06 20:25:36 UTC
Taji Taka wrote:
The claim is based on an API-verified kill report...so how is a single miner going to report a claim for everyone else who doesn't have an insurance policy when it's not his/her name on the kill report?


You're perfectly correct. I just had to re-read the OP, it seems.
Hrothgar Nilsson
#50 - 2012-06-06 21:37:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrothgar Nilsson
Taji Taka wrote:
Dezolf wrote:
Taji Taka wrote:
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:

So, in that example, I would receive one premium, and for the sake of argument assume the risk of loss for Hulks is equal, incur 10 times the risk.


Instead of insuring by Hulk you could insure it by corp member so only if that specific player loses a Hulk will it be covered and only once for that specific loss (they would need to re-insure that player again after 1 loss)...that way the client corp would need to insure all its active miners against loss...just a thought.


Which is not an insurance at all, since that one person could easily file a claim for any of his corp mates.

So, a single miner/corp mate/CEO just needs to purchase a single premium, and you incur the risk for all the hulks in his circle of acquaintance (or corpmates, friends, whatever)


The claim is based on an API-verified kill report...so how is a single miner going to report a claim for everyone else who doesn't have an insurance policy when it's not his/her name on the kill report?

Arguing all else is equal, let's say there's a 5% chance any Hulk is a loss in a month.

With any one of 10 Hulk losses being eligible for a claim on a single policy, there would be ten 5% chances, which would highly increase the risks.

Maybe to get a better idea, imagine a game of roulette. You place $10 on a single number, and stand to win $5000. Now imagine if that same $10 bet got you ten numbers, and you still stood to win $5000.

If the payoff is $5000 either way, would you place $10 on a single number, or $10 ($1 each) on ten numbers?

Same exact principle as ten Hulks being eligible for a claim for the price of one policy.
Taji Taka
The Arcadian Sun
#51 - 2012-06-06 22:51:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Taji Taka
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:

Arguing all else is equal, let's say there's a 5% chance any Hulk is a loss in a month.

With any one of 10 Hulk losses being eligible for a claim on a single policy, there would be ten 5% chances, which would highly increase the risks.

Maybe to get a better idea, imagine a game of roulette. You place $10 on a single number, and stand to win $5000. Now imagine if that same $10 bet got you ten numbers, and you still stood to win $5000.

If the payoff is $5000 either way, would you place $10 on a single number, or $10 ($1 each) on ten numbers?

Same exact principle as ten Hulks being eligible for a claim for the price of one policy.


Think of it this way:

Your client corp has 10 Hulks, 10 miners:

Ex1. They do what you said and order 1 policy tied to Miner A (as you would REQUIRE it to be tied to a character, not a corpful of characters). All 10 miners go out in their Hulks to mine and lose 3 Hulks, none of which have Miner A in them, so when they send the claim you see the Kill Reports do not show Miner A as a victim, therefore they get nothing.

Ex2. Same thing, but they lose 3 Hulks, and one belongs to Miner A. You payout the corp for only a SINGLE HULK loss, because again, only Miner A was insured, and for only one loss at a time. If Miner A were to lose another Hulk he would get nothing unless he had paid for another policy after that loss.

What I'm getting at is if you tie it to a single miner/character and allow only one loss for that character before he/she has to buy another policy you are only inheriting THAT character's risk, not all 10. They could have 100 Hulks, but Miner A can only pilot one Hulk at a time, and he's paid for one policy.

Ideally, you have a client corp with 10 miners purchase 10 policies, one for each miner character, and then you've taken on the risk of 10 Hulks, but you've also got 10 paid policies as well. The whole process is still done on an individual basis as you originally designed.

-T
Aokema
#52 - 2012-06-07 02:40:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Aokema
A thought... just going to throw it in there:

Hulks and other ships in Eve dont a numberplates or any Unique ID like cars or any other item with a serial number in the real world...

In Eve the Unique ID is the Pilot only... then again that ID can be corresponded with a date and Corp membership, and so forth to a ship via the killmail.

To sum up my thought : It would have to be done on an individuel basis.
Hrothgar Nilsson
#53 - 2012-06-07 03:51:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrothgar Nilsson
Taji Taka wrote:
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:

Arguing all else is equal, let's say there's a 5% chance any Hulk is a loss in a month.

With any one of 10 Hulk losses being eligible for a claim on a single policy, there would be ten 5% chances, which would highly increase the risks.

Maybe to get a better idea, imagine a game of roulette. You place $10 on a single number, and stand to win $5000. Now imagine if that same $10 bet got you ten numbers, and you still stood to win $5000.

If the payoff is $5000 either way, would you place $10 on a single number, or $10 ($1 each) on ten numbers?

Same exact principle as ten Hulks being eligible for a claim for the price of one policy.


Think of it this way:

Your client corp has 10 Hulks, 10 miners:

Ex1. They do what you said and order 1 policy tied to Miner A (as you would REQUIRE it to be tied to a character, not a corpful of characters). All 10 miners go out in their Hulks to mine and lose 3 Hulks, none of which have Miner A in them, so when they send the claim you see the Kill Reports do not show Miner A as a victim, therefore they get nothing.

Ex2. Same thing, but they lose 3 Hulks, and one belongs to Miner A. You payout the corp for only a SINGLE HULK loss, because again, only Miner A was insured, and for only one loss at a time. If Miner A were to lose another Hulk he would get nothing unless he had paid for another policy after that loss.

What I'm getting at is if you tie it to a single miner/character and allow only one loss for that character before he/she has to buy another policy you are only inheriting THAT character's risk, not all 10. They could have 100 Hulks, but Miner A can only pilot one Hulk at a time, and he's paid for one policy.

Ideally, you have a client corp with 10 miners purchase 10 policies, one for each miner character, and then you've taken on the risk of 10 Hulks, but you've also got 10 paid policies as well. The whole process is still done on an individual basis as you originally designed.

-T

The way it's set up is that a payout for a loss can only be made to the purchaser of a policy, for a policy they personally purchased, for a loss they personally incurred.

It's the only way it can be done. Doing things the way you previously suggested leaves it fraught with the potential for abuse and increases risk, along the same exact statistical lines as the roulette analogy I provided earlier.
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