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Emergent Contradiction with HulkaWoWagettingboringdon

Author
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#61 - 2012-06-05 22:52:17 UTC
Spikeflach wrote:
I Believe its pretty rational for a miner to not mine when people are out looking to gank them.


Of course you do. You are precisely the sort of unthinking miner we're discussing here. Normal EVE players know that no matter what they're doing, someone, somewhere may wish to gank them. But they manage to overcome the crippling fear of losing their ship, take reasonable precautions, and play the game. When they're making money, they know they have reduced the risk of loss to a level where when factoring in losing their ship they will still come out ahead overall.

The miner, unable to deal with the fear of loss, can only consider if someone might gank him. If there's a chance he could get ganked he will turn tail and run, cowering in a station pleading for CCP to ban ganking. The fact that if he mines and takes basic precautions he will have a positive expected return, factoring in the risk of ganks, is irrelevant to the miner - and to you. That's not rational, thats the cold clammy hand of fear clutching your heart as you consider the slight risk you might lose your ship.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#62 - 2012-06-05 22:54:38 UTC
Spikeflach wrote:
I Believe its pretty rational for a miner to not mine when people are out looking to gank them.

It's been suggested by the same people that have been saying miners want to be risk free.


If it's rational to not mine when people want to gank you, then you should never mine because there's always someone out there who would like to gank you.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Spikeflach
Perkone
Caldari State
#63 - 2012-06-05 23:48:17 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Spikeflach wrote:
I Believe its pretty rational for a miner to not mine when people are out looking to gank them.


Of course you do. You are precisely the sort of unthinking miner we're discussing here. Normal EVE players know that no matter what they're doing, someone, somewhere may wish to gank them. But they manage to overcome the crippling fear of losing their ship, take reasonable precautions, and play the game. When they're making money, they know they have reduced the risk of loss to a level where when factoring in losing their ship they will still come out ahead overall.

The miner, unable to deal with the fear of loss, can only consider if someone might gank him. If there's a chance he could get ganked he will turn tail and run, cowering in a station pleading for CCP to ban ganking. The fact that if he mines and takes basic precautions he will have a positive expected return, factoring in the risk of ganks, is irrelevant to the miner - and to you. That's not rational, thats the cold clammy hand of fear clutching your heart as you consider the slight risk you might lose your ship.



I'm sorry, i haven't mined for months, i'm only confirming the tactic of not mining to not get ganked.

Why you have to go on, i don't know.

And yes, even super duper pvp types will turn tail and run if they have even the littlest bit of a chance they could lose.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#64 - 2012-06-05 23:55:05 UTC
being loss-averse is assumed in all discussions of risk aversion because without it the entire discussion makes no sense

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

AllUrIskRBelongToMeToo
NuclearSpaceFishCapitalism
#65 - 2012-06-06 00:02:49 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:
Wat?
The OP is listing a number of claims being made about the current situation in EVE and is hoping that they are contradictory.

They're not, really.



ha, of course you would say that.

sandbox based harassment and nothing more. Unfortunately CCP is to cowardly to intervene before players destroy the sandbox that ccp created. Of course a sandbox is absolutely pointless if there is no one playing in it. If these hacks that consider themselves "pvpers" were anything they suggest then they would be appalled by the idea of bothering with miners that cannot fight back.

Unfortunately ccp...i mean eve pvp has turned into nothing but picking on toddlers and punching them in the face repeatedly. Its no longer about the risk of getting blown up by someone that was better then you. eve pvp has become all about beating on those that don't even have a weapon fitted and beating one's chest as though they defeated an impossibly difficult enemy. It used to be about the rush, now everyone is a bunch of light weights that either play station games, the titan bridge shuffle, gate humping, or hulkageddon lemmings. Its no longer about that adrenaline rush that left people's hands shaking like some kind of junkie trying to get their fix.

Unfortunately the eve that I came back to is nothing but a buncha retards looking for the weakest targets possible. Theres more risk involved in playing solitaire. nothing but cowards, the whole lot of them, ccp should just purge the system and pull the plug so that maybe people still have a slightly positive memory of what eve used to be, all in the hopes that they can make a new game and not look like complete tools that let idiots ruin the game.
Klandi
Consortium of stella Technologies
#66 - 2012-06-06 00:42:07 UTC
So instead of discussing subjective theory, let me express a scenario - as close to factual as possible.

I am an industrialist in game - I want to make money by making stuff and selling stuff. The "sandbox" allows this. To perform this I must have a way of making stuff and also making a profit so I can pay for plexes for my characters and purchase components to make into stuff. My preferred method of making stuff is by erecting a POS - a large one, a Minnie POS.
I need to sell my stuff to the masses and the most cost effective location is Jita - so where is the best place to erect my POS?
IN NULL_SEC OF COURSE.
Sadly not oh gentle reader - because it would not be profitable - and the cost of PLEXes is high so I must maximize my profits. So I put up my POS in hi-sec - fairly close to this major hub.
Now I need fuel to maintain this method of gameplay - where do I go to get this?
IN NULL_SEC OF COURSE.
Again - you are not on the same page - I need to get the ice in hi-sec because it is cost effective and I prefer to do it alone as I cannot afford to share it. So - a Metropolis ice bearing system gets the attention of my ice-miner.
And I get ganked ....

Because the situation has been created that means several variables have been created (hi-sec, POS structures, fuel requirements, location of Jita, type of gameplay) I have no choice about where I go to optimize my profits.

So for the casual player, the one that does not like large groups or never feels the need to be hampered by sitting in or creating a super or station - why do I need null-sec?
And why do I need to be ganked?

I am aware of my own ignorance and have checked my emotional quotient - thanks for asking

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#67 - 2012-06-06 02:13:27 UTC
Spikeflach wrote:


I'm sorry, i haven't mined for months, i'm only confirming the tactic of not mining to not get ganked.

Why you have to go on, i don't know.

And yes, even super duper pvp types will turn tail and run if they have even the littlest bit of a chance they could lose.


You've never been in a welped fleet, have you?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Alia Gon'die
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#68 - 2012-06-06 02:32:30 UTC
To not be loss-averse means to be pleased by the loss of your ship. To not be risk-averse means to not be scared of risking your ship. They seem to be pretty different concepts to me.

Though I suppose to someone who has a preformed opinion on these sorts of subjects, it could be difficult to see things a different way.

Self-appointed forums hallway monitor Ask me about La Maison and what it means for you! http://bit.ly/LTW5gW These wardec rules are not in place for our protection. They're in place for yours.

Dimitryy
Silent Knights.
LinkNet
#69 - 2012-06-06 02:32:50 UTC
Klandi wrote:
So instead of discussing subjective theory, let me express a scenario - as close to factual as possible.

I am an industrialist in game - I want to make money by making stuff and selling stuff. The "sandbox" allows this. To perform this I must have a way of making stuff and also making a profit so I can pay for plexes for my characters and purchase components to make into stuff. My preferred method of making stuff is by erecting a POS - a large one, a Minnie POS.
I need to sell my stuff to the masses and the most cost effective location is Jita - so where is the best place to erect my POS?
IN NULL_SEC OF COURSE.
Sadly not oh gentle reader - because it would not be profitable - and the cost of PLEXes is high so I must maximize my profits. So I put up my POS in hi-sec - fairly close to this major hub.
Now I need fuel to maintain this method of gameplay - where do I go to get this?
IN NULL_SEC OF COURSE.
Again - you are not on the same page - I need to get the ice in hi-sec because it is cost effective and I prefer to do it alone as I cannot afford to share it. So - a Metropolis ice bearing system gets the attention of my ice-miner.
And I get ganked ....

Because the situation has been created that means several variables have been created (hi-sec, POS structures, fuel requirements, location of Jita, type of gameplay) I have no choice about where I go to optimize my profits.

So for the casual player, the one that does not like large groups or never feels the need to be hampered by sitting in or creating a super or station - why do I need null-sec?
And why do I need to be ganked?


Let me answer the part i bolded first. You need to be ganked because ganking is part of the sandbox process just like your industry is. You don't HAVE to do anything you listed. You could set your POS and mining operation up somewhere NOT near a trade hub, and move your goods to market, which allows you to minimize loss by keeping your ships safe in less traveled space. You could mine with a cheaper ship or a very well tanked ship, trading slight profits for increased safety.

The idea that you should be guaranteed the absolute most efficient way to run your enterprise, with no modifications to ensure the safety and security of your assets, and not be interfered with at all is FALSE, that is not how the sandbox works, and not how eve should work, ever.

Remember, your enterprise is effecting the market, lowering prices, competing with others. YOU are effecting people, and it is only fair that others should effect you right back.
Cynthia Eldo
Yoyodyne Technologies
#70 - 2012-06-06 03:30:40 UTC
All the interesting my aversion is bigger than your aversion aside, I have not had any of the gankers try to gank me mining with my Rokh. Unlike they did when I was in an unarmed Covetor. I shouted out even saying "Look at me I'm mining in HiSec!". If the issue is HiSec mining then this says more of the gankers aversion to risk or anything else.

Yoyodyne Technologies Bringing You Today's Technologies Tomorrow!

DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#71 - 2012-06-06 03:38:46 UTC
Lexmana wrote:
I will eat my hat if this is not a goon alt.


What hat? The only hats in Eve are my loke my Tin Foil hat!
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#72 - 2012-06-06 03:49:26 UTC
Cynthia Eldo wrote:
All the interesting my aversion is bigger than your aversion aside, I have not had any of the gankers try to gank me mining with my Rokh. Unlike they did when I was in an unarmed Covetor. I shouted out even saying "Look at me I'm mining in HiSec!". If the issue is HiSec mining then this says more of the gankers aversion to risk or anything else.


You're using methods of minimizing risk and I applaud you for that. You reduced your yield a little and added a little clicking, but you're doing something that many people arguing against the whining miners (not all miners, just the whining ones) have been suggesting as a solution, and quite a number of people have been saying is, I dunno, evidence that the Hulk is broken for some reason.

You are rationally coping with an increase risk.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#73 - 2012-06-06 03:49:48 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Being loss-averse and being risk-averse are utterly unconnected things.


Weaselior wrote:
being loss-averse is assumed in all discussions of risk aversion because without it the entire discussion makes no sense


Goon 101. Next comes the claim that he never intended to make sense.

Lol
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#74 - 2012-06-06 03:53:49 UTC
Malphilos wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Being loss-averse and being risk-averse are utterly unconnected things.


Weaselior wrote:
being loss-averse is assumed in all discussions of risk aversion because without it the entire discussion makes no sense


Goon 101. Next comes the claim that he never intended to make sense.

Lol


You can be loss averse without being risk averse. Claiming that someone is necessarily risk averse because they are loss averse is wrong.

Context. It matters.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#75 - 2012-06-06 03:59:26 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Malphilos wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Being loss-averse and being risk-averse are utterly unconnected things.


Weaselior wrote:
being loss-averse is assumed in all discussions of risk aversion because without it the entire discussion makes no sense


Goon 101. Next comes the claim that he never intended to make sense.

Lol


You can be loss averse without being risk averse.


No.

Re-read your compadre's blurb. You risk nothing but loss. It's like saying you can be purple without being a color.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#76 - 2012-06-06 04:04:41 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Malphilos wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Malphilos wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Being loss-averse and being risk-averse are utterly unconnected things.


Weaselior wrote:
being loss-averse is assumed in all discussions of risk aversion because without it the entire discussion makes no sense


Goon 101. Next comes the claim that he never intended to make sense.

Lol


You can be loss averse without being risk averse.


No.

Re-read your compadre's blurb. You risk nothing but loss. It's like saying you can be purple without being a color.


Until you see people self destructing uninsured ships for no reason, it's safe to assume Everybody's loss averse.

While I think he overstated by saying they're unconnected, it's like saying you can't be a [nationality] unless you're human. It's technically true, but it's silly to say in an argument.

Or, to continue your metaphor, like saying you can't be purple if you're not a color when we're talking about the differences between red and blue. It's true, but not relevant.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#77 - 2012-06-06 06:05:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Weaselior wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Miners are irrationally risk averse.


Imagine if we EVER had one thread crying because cloakies AFK in 0.0 systems.

As someone who quails at the thought of losing a ship and who gets clammy at the thought of leaving highsec, i am sure you have difficulty understanding the mind of someone willing to live in 0.0. What outrages a nullseccer, a man who can stand on his own two feet, about an AFK cloaker is not the thought he might lose a ship. It's that someone is in his space and he cannot murder them.



Sadly I am not some e-p33n mofo nor a self proclaimed universe ruler. Therefore I recorded just some tiny fragments.
But anyway since these are enough to prove you wrong once again:

Here is me carrying a BPO thru Rancer less than 1 month ago.

Here is me in Tama when I joined FW, that is when I could not fit a T2 geared Rifter yet.

Here is me in FW again, when I joined DR. I could finally use a cruiser.

Shortly after I was small roaming in Geminate. You don't have the exclusivity of being in 0.0.

Shooting at red crosses. Yes but in 0.1 sec.

Gate camping.

Docked at one of the bases. Jita? No, Taff.

Docked at another home. Jita? No 5J-UEX


Then some very bad events in life happened and I could not commit any more to that EvE life, gameplay now is from 15 to 30 mins a day tops.


Edit:

About

Weaselior wrote:

What outrages a nullseccer, a man who can stand on his own two feet, about an AFK cloaker is not the thought he might lose a ship. It's that someone is in his space and he cannot murder them.


Poor thing, I am all tears. Unlike hi seccers, he's there for the riches, so be ready to harden up counter that. For some reason we never had issues at killing AFK cloakers, since they had to do something sooner or later.
DeliaPrescot
Balintol
#78 - 2012-06-06 06:53:17 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
The fact of the matter is that highsec miners are driven solely by their risk-averse nature. Unwilling to accept any sort of risk, unwilling to factor risk into their business plans, they engage in an activity that cannot create a real loss of isk (merely an opportunity cost) without intervention from other players. As a result, one can herd them like sheep merely by demonstrating the potential for loss: hulkageddon works because as highsec miners a are risk-averse they are unable to process the likelihood of a risk, and we see that constantly. Trying to explain to a highsec miner how he can reduce his risk of being ganked is often like trying to teach a dog calculus: it simply won't process it. The highsec miner will be told he can buffer tank - but will respond it is still possible to gank him therefore the buffer tank offers no advantage.

We see forms of this argument constantly. It doesn't matter to a highsec miner if he can easily make it so it requires three catalysts (or more) to gank him: since it's possible, it's the same as only needing one catalyst to gank him. To the thinking man, of course, these are different: you may have, on any particular day, a 5% chance of a loss of 300m if you are untanked while a .5% chance of a similar loss if you are, meaning your daily loss to ganking is reduced from 15m to 1.5m - an absolutely huge increase. However, to the highsec miner, all that they see is "300m loss". They can't deal with this, and therefore bleat that it must be made impossible to gank them. Now, many have processed this is unacceptable in this game, but the thrust of their argument is clear: they should not be exposed to risk and anything that does expose them to anything more than "asteroid hitting earth tomorrow" levels of risk is unacceptable. If it's reduced to that, well, they're willing to compromise.


That is spot on, i will quote that from now on every time i feel the need.
BoSau Hotim
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
#79 - 2012-06-06 09:15:41 UTC
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
My indy alt was able to mine in a hulk, unmolested for 6 hours yesterday afternoon and early evening. It was a .5 system.

Get over thus fear of ganking. It happens, but no where near as often as you think. If you gave ganking problems, move to a lesser known location.

Seriously, this isn't that hard to figure out, nor that difficult to deal with.



** I dont believe your answer had anything with the point OP was making...

I'm not a carebear... I'm a SPACE BARBIE!  Now... where's Ken?

BoSau Hotim
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
#80 - 2012-06-06 09:16:59 UTC  |  Edited by: BoSau Hotim
ummm accidental ditto (how do u delete a post???) blast!

I'm not a carebear... I'm a SPACE BARBIE!  Now... where's Ken?