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Add Jove ships as "Pirate Faction" T2 ships?

Author
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2011-10-05 16:14:34 UTC
Currently, Pirate faction ships have 3 bonuses, while most normal T1 ships have 2 (occasionally an extra role bonus).
Pirate faction ships have the same resists as T1 ships, and T1 skill requirements
*example, the vindi: web bonus, tracking bonus, and a damage bonus equivalent to 5% hybrid damage per level.
Of course, they also have an extra module slot or two

They are souped up T1 ships on par with T2 ships.

Currently, most T2 ships have 4 bonuses (2 for the T1 ship skill, 2 for the T2 ship skill - occasionally a role bonus)

So, lets make Jove ships souped up T2s on par with T3s (at least in combat, if not adaptability).

Instead of 3 bonuses to 2 for the normal T1, lets make it 6 bonuses to the 4 of normal T2 - maybe a role bonus as well
- and make it have T2 skill and construction requirements. Additionally they'd have an extra low and medium slot relative to T2 ships of their size class.


4 of the bonuses would each come from the racial ship skils, 2 from T2 ship skills.

Example: Jove Cruiser

Role Bonus: +100% damage to Medium Energy Turret

-5% signature radius per Minmatar Cruiser level
+5% shield resist per Caldari Cruiser level
+10m3 dronebay capacity per Gallente Cruiser Skill level
- 5% Medium Energy turret cycle time per Amarr Cruiser level (a more accurate description of ship ROF bonuses)

+10% Medium Energy Turret optimal range per Heavy Assault Ship skill level.
-96% to -100% reduction in Cloaking Device CPU use per level of Recon Ship

6 skill bonuses, T2 skill requirements, T2 resists.
Give it half the normal number of turret slots, so it has some utility highs and the role bonus doesn't make it too OP'd.

BPC would come from the Society of Conscious thought (or add down Jove agents in space that can be scanned down to give missions? make these agents in low sec?)

As no invention would be involved, instead the BPCs would include various data cores from all 4 of the empires as part of their material requirements - in addition to standard minerals, morphite, tools, construction block, and components (like Sustained Shield Emitter, Antimatter Reactor Unit, Tesseract Capacitor Unit, Plasma Thruster, etc)
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#2 - 2011-10-05 16:29:33 UTC
Jove have Tech 5 ships.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Zuteh
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3 - 2011-10-05 16:42:48 UTC
Yeah I support something like this, want some new and fresh ships. While you're at it fix the crap missile speed special bonus on the Rattlesnake to drone speed bonus.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2011-10-05 17:29:22 UTC
I'm still not too hot on my eve lore, but can't the jove spank any other empire without breaking a sweat if they were so inclined? I mean, they did it to the amarrians, right? And aren't the CONCORD ships made of jove tech?
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#5 - 2011-10-05 17:32:33 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
I'm still not too hot on my eve lore, but can't the jove spank any other empire without breaking a sweat if they were so inclined? I mean, they did it to the amarrians, right? And aren't the CONCORD ships made of jove tech?


7 jovian frigates and a mobile station destroyed an amarrian fleet of 10,000 ships in the battle of van'kof making it the asbolutly worst military defeat in amarrian history.

Last jove ship in eve to have been engaged by localized forces was a DAMAGED jovain battleship it operationally took over 400 capsullered battleships to finally sink the jove battleship who couldnt repair itself.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Aidan Patrick
Aldebaran Foundation
#6 - 2011-10-05 18:14:29 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
I'm still not too hot on my eve lore, but can't the jove spank any other empire without breaking a sweat if they were so inclined? I mean, they did it to the amarrians, right? And aren't the CONCORD ships made of jove tech?


7 jovian frigates and a mobile station destroyed an amarrian fleet of 10,000 ships in the battle of van'kof making it the asbolutly worst military defeat in amarrian history.

Last jove ship in eve to have been engaged by localized forces was a DAMAGED jovain battleship it operationally took over 400 capsullered battleships to finally sink the jove battleship who couldnt repair itself.


And this, is exactly why in the games current state releasing Jovian ships is a horrible idea. They would need to be nerfed so horribly to put them in the hands of players; which IMO would ruin the mystique of the Jovians.

If you want to fly one; you're probrably better off volunteering for ISD and potentially getting the chance of flying one for a live event.

It wont let me have an empty signature...

Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#7 - 2011-10-05 18:46:29 UTC
Aidan Patrick wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
I'm still not too hot on my eve lore, but can't the jove spank any other empire without breaking a sweat if they were so inclined? I mean, they did it to the amarrians, right? And aren't the CONCORD ships made of jove tech?


7 jovian frigates and a mobile station destroyed an amarrian fleet of 10,000 ships in the battle of van'kof making it the asbolutly worst military defeat in amarrian history.

Last jove ship in eve to have been engaged by localized forces was a DAMAGED jovain battleship it operationally took over 400 capsullered battleships to finally sink the jove battleship who couldnt repair itself.


And this, is exactly why in the games current state releasing Jovian ships is a horrible idea. They would need to be nerfed so horribly to put them in the hands of players; which IMO would ruin the mystique of the Jovians.

If you want to fly one; you're probrably better off volunteering for ISD and potentially getting the chance of flying one for a live event.



Let me correct myself, the absoulte worse military disaster in the history of new eden.

Never has a fleet ever been destroyed by ships so 'insignificant'.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2011-10-05 19:27:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Verity Sovereign
Nova Fox wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
I'm still not too hot on my eve lore, but can't the jove spank any other empire without breaking a sweat if they were so inclined? I mean, they did it to the amarrians, right? And aren't the CONCORD ships made of jove tech?


7 jovian frigates and a mobile station destroyed an amarrian fleet of 10,000 ships in the battle of van'kof making it the asbolutly worst military defeat in amarrian history.


http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=11-02-05

Of the amarr composition:
Quote:
the mighty Amarr Empire had chosen to show the Jovians the undeniable might of their squadron, a force not even approaching the full size of the great Amarr Navy.
...
It was a rich and diverse mixture of battleships and cruisers, each ship equipped with state of the art Amarrian laser technology. Their ships were bulky and slow, but made up for their lack of agility with the devastating power of their laser batteries. The fleet organized itself in typical Amarrian military fashion - a staggered line designed to maximize the ghastly effect of tachyon fire against the enemy’s front.
...
The first volley of fire erupted from an Apocalypse, its turrets taking aim and firing as one, blood-red beams slicing into the side of a stationary ship until the vessel’s hull ruptured, pieces of it scattering like dust among the rank and file of the Jovian force.
...
And then it happened. Massive, eerily green blasts erupted from seemingly nowhere, and an Amarrian Apocalypse went up in flames. Another blast erupted what seemed mere seconds later, and tore through a squad of Mallers,


I don't know how you got 10,000 Amarrian ships from that.


7 Jove frigates ad a mobile station? hardly, they had advance intelligence, time to plan, and a much larger fleet than 7 frigs and a mobile station:
Quote:
Their need for information had led to the formation of the Jovian intelligence network, an entity with eyes and ears in most Empires’ internal archives. It delivered to the Jovians every plan the Amarrians had laid out for their assault – even before the Amarrian commanders themselves had received the information. This allowed the Jovians to plan extensively for the battle that would take place in one of their own systems – then called Vak’Atioth, now known only as Atioth.
...
The Jovian forces split into smaller wings, each numbering 5 ships, all equipped with devastating Jovian laser technology.
...
the smaller vessels engaged single targets, like a furious pack of wolves,
...
And then it happened. Massive, eerily green blasts erupted from seemingly nowhere, and an Amarrian Apocalypse went up in flames. ... It was a Jovian Mother ship.

Swooping in, the Jove frigate forces caused even more confusion, sending the Amarrian forces into disarray.
...
For hours streams of glaring light lit up the system that night, the nimble Jove frigates diving into the Amarr fleet, their ranged cruisers supporting them with laser-fire over a distance and the titanic Mothership firing blast after blast of its extreme-range weapons; cannons created specifically for this battle. The smaller vessels holding the Jovian line prevented Amarrian squads from coming close enough to fire upon their nemesis, leaving the fleet defenseless against its onslaught.


Based on the description, it seems it was a frigate swarm, many wings of 5 frigates each, supported by cruisers with long range weapons, it seems the Frigate Swarm was backed by a Jove "Mothership" that sounded more like a Titan firing its DD at Amarrian BSes. That is far from a total of 7 frigates.


And it was not without Jove losses, nor was the Amarrian fleet *completely* destroyed.

"The Jovians had won the first battle of this war; the majority of the Amarrian fleet had been demolished whilst only a third of the Jovians ships had been lost."

A third of the Jovian fleet (which was backed by a Super Capital) was destroyed. The Amarrian fleet had A mixture of Battleships and cruisers.
The Jovians knew of the attack plans and incoming fleet composition before the attack came.

According to the lore, it was a crushing defeat, but it wasn't as if a handful of Jove ships could take on 10,000 Amarrian ships.
The Jove were far from invincible, as they had a >30% casualty rate.

The Amarr planned to go at them again after that battle:
"The Amarr knew they had to respond quickly and in numbers.
...
A much larger fleet was ordered to gather in preparation for another assault upon the Jovians.
...
The Amarrians agreed not to attack the Jovians again. Both sides knew this was not sincere. "

More importantly, it showed the Amarrians were not invincible:
Quote:
The Matari chose this moment to rebel against their Amarrian masters. Uncannily well equipped for slaves and high on morale, they proved more than a match for their demoralized Amarrian captors. Faced with losing their grip on the Minmatar, the Amarrians had no choice but to redirect their entire military force to the home front to handle the rebelling slaves.


So, we see the Jove have fast frigates, use lasers, have sniper cruisers, and Titans (or a Titan-Supercarrier hybird/ Mothership?)

We know the Amarr were willing to give it another go - it seems they considered a Minmatar Rebellion as more of a threat than the Jove.

The Jove may have had nice ships, but the Amarr had numbers, and had inflicted significant losses on the Jove during the battle, despite losing the majority of their fleet (those commanders that retreated were executed).

I don't think the Jove sound so advanced that they can't be included in the game.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#9 - 2011-10-05 19:38:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Fox
Somone went back and redacted and relored that story it seems which last I checked was an ongoing project for consistency.

Also the joivan version of a mothership is equateable to a mobile habitation station its not a real super capitol, something invented by the empires.

Now if they're armed or not is unknown though but its not a titan either as we all know as jovians dont have 'doomsday' weapons.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2011-10-05 19:54:13 UTC
It is clearly stated that the Jove Mothership was armed:
Quote:
the titanic Mothership firing blast after blast of its extreme-range weapons; cannons created specifically for this battle


The statements earlier in the lore imply it was a long range one shot kill of Amarr BS's, this is basically what the redesigned DD weapon is.
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2011-10-05 20:02:58 UTC
according to the lore jove ships would rofl stomp any other ship 1 on 1 ( same fits/class ect)
the jove mothership ( now supercarriers) apparently have DD devices, but there are only 3 in total in the jove navy
the reason amarr lost so much is in the lore amarr BS couldn't kill the frigs swarm, while a DD came from out of range from the SC.

in the amarrian military retreat = death because of cowardice, so even though they couldn't fight back they stayed to die, and iirc they did kill lots of jovians


anyways
the issue is, jove ships would be overpowered because
lvl 4 missions in jove ships would be super easy and fast
jove ships in PVP would be expensive but a fleet of them would kill anything else.
ruins the lore, jove is supposed to be ultra secret.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2011-10-05 20:14:18 UTC
The lore can develop

It could be related to the Sansha Incursions, IIRC, Sansha has taken over a Jove system.

T3 should beat anything else of the same size class 1v1.
Yet we just saw that Russian wormhole fleet of basically all T3 get Pwned
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#13 - 2011-10-05 20:23:13 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
The lore can develop

It could be related to the Sansha Incursions, IIRC, Sansha has taken over a Jove system.

T3 should beat anything else of the same size class 1v1.
Yet we just saw that Russian wormhole fleet of basically all T3 get Pwned


Lore develops usually for the worst for players. Ie if you kept up with lore you'd know that they are now finding sleeper drones in normal space.

Either way Devs have clearly stated that Jove is one thing players will never get. But would like to show off more it the time allowed for it.

Jove are remotely the only people who have a chance in hell to stand up against the eudenlandi (sp?) and possibly the terrans. (who knows maybe the eudenlandi are terrans)

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#14 - 2011-10-05 20:41:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
Jove ships are the most advanced ships ever.

They would have bonuses to everything.

Every damage type
Every resistance type
Every module type
Every drone type
Every Ecm
Every Eccm.

EVERYTHING

Joves ships are the ends all of ships in eve.

They are so far advanced that a battlship size vessel can replace carriers, titans, rorquals, orcas, hulks, marauders, black ops, stealth bombers, interceptors, interdictors, command ships.

You name it, a Jove ship can be it.

If Jove ships were introduced into Eve for the players to fly, then I would fully anticipate Eve being shut off sometime shortly after that.
Solinuas
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2011-10-05 20:47:26 UTC
but jove ships ARE in eve, they are just GM piloted lol
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2011-10-05 21:34:48 UTC
Jove ship tech is as old as the sleeper tech/yang jung/ etc tech.
This is the tech that Tech 3 ships are based on
That the devs have called it "tech 5" is meaningless, as they haven't even developed more than 1 ship class of T3- no modules at all. They have no idea what Tech IV might be. They pulled "tech 5" out of their arsch.)
Additionally tech 1 meta items are often better than Tech 2 (even at meta 4, and especially with faction items. Jove stuff could be faction versions of T2 stuff)

Quote:
Jove are remotely the only people who have a chance in hell to stand up against the eudenlandi (sp?) and possibly the terrans. (who knows maybe the eudenlandi are terrans)


Easy lore fix:
"The Jove empire, while technologically advanced, has insufficient resources to stand up against the emerging eudenlandi (sp?) threat. As a result They have begun recruiting capsuleers to bolster their ranks. As a last resort, Jove technology (ie BPCs) has been made available to loyal Capsuleer lead corporations and alliances."
Bam! the lore now allows for capsuleers to have Jove ships.

After all, do you really see an entire T3 ships and module lineup being completed and followed by T4?
Especially since one loses skill points everytime a T3 ship is destroyed, I don't see layer tech ever advancing beyond T3.
I think making the Jove clearly superior to T2, and on par with T3 (slightly better) is good enough.
Especially if you don't get the full Jove lineup - just 1 faction Frig, Cruiser, and BS (even though the NPCs for the current pirate factions have more than the 3 designs we have access to from each one).

If limitation of further proliferation is desired (since high LP/materials/ISk cost will only delay their spread), we could implement a mechanic like the loss of skill points in a T3.

You insert some lore BS along the lines of:
"The modifications needed for a capsuleer to interface with Jovian ships renders the capsuleer vulnerable to the Jovian disease. To prevent psychosis and general insanity following destruction of the Jove ship the capsuleers mind was linked to, a neural remap using an earlier neural scan must be used. As a failsafe, If the capsuleers mind is not yet capable of using another remap, the pod self destructs and a new clone is awakened. In either case, the remap using an earlier neural scan erases much of the pilots recently gained skill and proficiency."


Lore should not limit the game. You can BS your way towards doing anything you want. Gameplay mechanics should be the only limiting factors.

Of course, I actually don't intend to argue if Jove *should* be put into the game.

Rather *if* CCP decided to release Jove ships to the general player base, this is how I would like to see the ships be added.

I think as "faction T2" Jove stuff could still be advanced, highly sought after items with a bit of enigma (or at least status) attributed to them, while not being completely overpowered.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#17 - 2011-10-05 21:40:51 UTC
I wouldn't call that a lore fix,

The third jove empire is far removed from the first two. Who are at a technological disadvantge against the first four empires and even further disadvantage against the original terrans as we find out.

Either way Tech 2 ships is not how'd you classify a jove ship, it be tech 5, which ships that grow and level on thier own means and have multiple pod crew.

And just because Sansha conquered jove space doesnt mean the jove fought them for it, the jove are a dying species and may have just took one of thier motherships and left.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2011-10-05 21:52:00 UTC
Ok, maybe not a "fix", but if CCP wanted to allow players to get Jove BPCs, that is an example of how you could add lore to "enable" what CCP wanted to do.

I don't think the lore implies the Jove have lost technology from their first period of empire, rather they have lost resources and population, while retaining their technology.

Even if they have lost technology, that just makes it easier to steer the lore into allowing dissemination of Jove technology.

The weaker the Jove are in comparison to potential threats, the more likely they will enlist help of the capsuleer class - and allowing the capsuleers access to Jove tech only makes that desperately needed capsuleer help more effective.

My point is, if the developers wanted to do this, they could easily do it within the confines of established lore.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#19 - 2011-10-05 22:13:38 UTC
*cracks knuckles*

Verity Sovereign wrote:
Jove ship tech is as old as the sleeper tech/yang jung/ etc tech.
This is the tech that Tech 3 ships are based on
That the devs have called it "tech 5" is meaningless, as they haven't even developed more than 1 ship class of T3- no modules at all. They have no idea what Tech IV might be. They pulled "tech 5" out of their arsch.)
Additionally tech 1 meta items are often better than Tech 2 (even at meta 4, and especially with faction items. Jove stuff could be faction versions of T2 stuff)


No. T3s are based on reversed-engineered Sleeper technology... which makes SOME use of a materiel called "fullerane".... which Jove ships are based almost ENTIRELY on.

As far as modules and other stuff....... seriously? You do know of the term "balance," right?

Quote:
You insert some lore BS along the lines of:
"The modifications needed for a capsuleer to interface with Jovian ships renders the capsuleer vulnerable to the Jovian disease. To prevent psychosis and general insanity following destruction of the Jove ship the capsuleers mind was linked to, a neural remap using an earlier neural scan must be used. As a failsafe, If the capsuleers mind is not yet capable of using another remap, the pod self destructs and a new clone is awakened. In either case, the remap using an earlier neural scan erases much of the pilots recently gained skill and proficiency."


Except this "backstory" wouldn't fly. The capsules we use ARE Jovian tech and the Jove are technically the "original capsuleers." We "normal people" must have our bodies and minds altered to limit the nasty effects of the device... provided we already have the physical and mental prerequisites required for the alteration process.

Quote:
Lore should not limit the game. You can BS your way towards doing anything you want. Gameplay mechanics should be the only limiting factors.


You're missing one other aspect... "balance." Some ships, weapons, and ideas cannot (and should not) be introduced without altering a good chunk of the game... which isn't always feasible. To illustrate my point...

Imagine a battleship with 8 highs, 8 mids, 8 lows, 8 turret slots, 8 launcher slots, a drone bay equal to that of a dreadnought, more or less even resistances, has enough CPU, Powergrid, and Capacitor power to comfortably fit and run anything BS sized, and with a few fitting mods, it can fit dreadnought weapons.
This is a Jovian Battleship.

Is that something you really want to see a fleet of?


Quote:
Of course, I actually don't intend to argue if Jove *should* be put into the game.

Rather *if* CCP decided to release Jove ships to the general player base, this is how I would like to see the ships be added.


Theorycrafting is good and all between friends, corpies, and alliance mates... but this is a venue where the feasibility of ideas is called into question and/or fleshed out. "Because it'd be cool" or "if it comes" are not things you can casually throw in here.
You post an idea here and you're effectively saying, "this is my idea... is it a good idea, is it feasible, does it need work, if so... where?"

Quote:
I think as "faction T2" Jove stuff could still be advanced, highly sought after items with a bit of enigma (or at least status) attributed to them, while not being completely overpowered.


That is was what said about supercarriers. Then people realized how good they were compared to other ships and built them en mass. In order to not get the same effect you'll have to nerf the Jove ships... hard. And that'll just ruin the whole mystique of the Jovian race.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2011-10-06 04:21:30 UTC
Ok....
Even with the skill penalty like T3s have, the proliferation could still be a problem.

Solution:
Limited edition ships.

Only a limited number of BPCs are released as tournament or event prizes, along the lines of ships like the Adrestia.

http://www.eve-wiki.net/index.php?title=Adrestia
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