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Is there an NPC Trade Goods machanic?
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Erik Valensteed
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-06-05 15:20:05 UTC
Is the supply and demand of NPC trade goods (antibiotics, spiced wine, etc.) based on any kind of mechanic?

As in, does the station X have an hourly use of antibiotics that, when not available, controls the amount that that the station is offering for antibiotics? So, for instance, if the staion does not get antibiotics for 10 hourse, their demand increases and the ISK per item increases.

Or is it all just arbitrary/random occurances?
Ilkahn
Ideal Mechanisms
#2 - 2012-06-05 15:37:35 UTC
To my knowledge this is just fixed in game stuff. Some items are totally worthless, others are used by players for whatever.

I had a buddy that liked to carry spiced wine, cigarettes, and hookers or marines in his cargo for good luck in pvp. (he escaped many a bubble camp so it must have worked LOL)

I think the short answer to your question is that they are just pieces in a game, uses largely unknown, created for missions that no longer exist, or whatever.
Hans Tesla
RigWerks Incorporated
#3 - 2012-06-05 15:50:33 UTC
Erik Valensteed wrote:
I[D]oes the station X have an hourly use of antibiotics that, when not available, controls the amount that that the station is offering for antibiotics? So, for instance, if the staion does not get antibiotics for 10 hourse, their demand increases and the ISK per item increases.


If it doesn't, it should. From my limited experience in NPC trade goods, I've only seen the NPC buy order prices drop during the course of selling, which would seem to stimulate demand being met. Not sure if the buy order prices go up gradually, or just reset at DT.

It would be pretty cool (albeit possibly very, very exploitable) to allow for the introduction of incremental pricing based on changes in supply/demand as mentioned above as well as introducing impact from the destruction of NPC convoys that shuttle trade goods to/from stations.

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Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-06-05 15:58:41 UTC
When you completely fill an NPC order, the same NPC places another order priced a little higher (sell order) or lower (buy order) immediately. In addition to that there is some kind of gradual change towards an equilibrium going on, I have never investigated the details much.

Destruction of NPC convoys has no effect on NPC order prices.

NPC prices of skillbooks and blueprints (and a few other items, like sov upgrades) are fixed and never change.
Erik Valensteed
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-06-05 16:00:36 UTC
Well, here is why I am asking.

Let's say that the median buying price for spiced wine is 1600 ISK. A player buys up all the spiced wine in a system that is 1600 ISK and below, and then waits. Will the inevitable lack of spiced wine importing (because players are not going to buy spiced wine for trade runs if there is none available below 1600) drive the buying price up as the supply in the buying system runs low?

Or is the system based on not real supply and demand mechanic.

As I have read about Eve, it is a re-envisioning of the game Elite. In Elite, there was a rudimentary supply and demand system that caused prices to increase when a lack of supplies occurred. But, as it was a single-player game, there was an unseen importation of supplies, as well, to simulate a galaxy full of traders. I think the old BBS game Trade Wars was similar.

In Eve, as the trading is done by a substantial amout of human players, there would be no need for computer augmented moving of goods.

I am just attempting to determine if I should take the time to develop a real trade strategy, based on a supply/demand mechanic, or just look for a different way to make isk.
Erik Valensteed
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2012-06-05 16:06:57 UTC
Hans Tesla wrote:

It would be pretty cool (albeit possibly very, very exploitable) to allow for the introduction of incremental pricing based on changes in supply/demand as mentioned above as well as introducing impact from the destruction of NPC convoys that shuttle trade goods to/from stations.


Yes, exploitable, but really, isn't that what Eve is all about. For instance, most MMOs won't tolerate gangs of players preying on newer players for profit. But in Eve, the liberal environment helps promote a more “realistic” experience. This is would be, or already may be, one more aspect of creating a “real” economic system. Although, with the missing element of ISK capping in-game, it could possibly create issues. [unless the various notional EVE political leaders voted for an increased debt ceiling ;)]
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-06-05 16:12:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
Erik Valensteed wrote:
Let's say that the median buying price for spiced wine is 1600 ISK. A player buys up all the spiced wine in a system that is 1600 ISK and below, and then waits.


You can't buy out "all" the spiced wine, as NPC stocks will keep refreshing (and raising in price) indefinitely.

Quote:
Will the inevitable lack of spiced wine importing (because players are not going to buy spiced wine for trade runs if there is none available below 1600) drive the buying price up as the supply in the buying system runs low?


I'm pretty sure there is a maximum cap or a "stable price" that the NPC prices will tend to converge to with no player interference. They won't just in/decrease without a limit. And the stable buy order price is lower than the stable sell order price.

Quote:
Yes, exploitable, but really, isn't that what Eve is all about. For instance, most MMOs won't tolerate gangs of players preying on newer players for profit. But in Eve, the liberal environment helps promote a more “realistic” experience.


Not placing arbitrary restrictions on player behavior is one thing, exploiting game mechanics to literally magick ISK out of thin air is another. (I'm not accusing you of anything, just pointing out the difference.)

NPC orders form an almost negligible minority of the market (especially if you don't count the fixed price items). There are hundreds of other items which are constrained by a very real supply/demand mechanic. If you know how to profit from that, you can make billions without even having to undock.
Erik Valensteed
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2012-06-05 16:22:41 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:


Not placing arbitrary restrictions on player behavior is one thing, exploiting game mechanics to literally magick ISK out of thin air is another. (I'm not accusing you of anything, just pointing out the difference.)




You whole post from which I pulled the above quote answered my question very well. Thank you. I understand now what you meant before and how it affects the price balancing for NPC trade goods.

As far as the bit of your post that I pulled out and pasted above, the ability to control a market in such a way is no more "magik-ing" ISK than "magik-ing" a US Dollar. It is a very real (although oft times a very cut-throat) tactic used in modern-day business models. It would not be an "exploit" that circumvents game mechanic, it is a way of business that would exploit a vulnerable market and a notional population cross-section (NPC starbase dwellers). Kinda like pirating is not an "expolit" of game security measures, but an "expoitation" of unweary, unwise capuleers.
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-06-05 16:37:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
The difference is, playing the market moves ISK (or dollars, or yens, or whatnot) from one person to another. You can only get as much money as other people are willing to spend. Pockets of NPCs are limitless, therefore if there was an exploit allowing you to make significant profits from NPC orders repeatedly, it would keep pumping new ISK into the economy with no limits, instead of the same ISK in circulation changing hands.

There *was* an exploit involving NPC trade orders a while ago allowing you to do just that - make as much ISK as you could carry in your freighter, anytime you wanted, without any regard to the actual player market. It was fixed pretty fast.
Ryelek d'Entari
Horizon Glare
#10 - 2012-06-05 16:43:15 UTC
Erik Valensteed wrote:


As far as the bit of your post that I pulled out and pasted above, the ability to control a market in such a way is no more "magik-ing" ISK than "magik-ing" a US Dollar.


Remember that NPC buy orders do in fact create ISK out of thin air, and NPC buy orders do in fact destroy ISK. NPC ISK is in fact an unlimited supply. The artificial trade goods buy/sell order pricing is not based on how much ISK has been transferred to/from NPC coffers, it's only based on when the stock gets bought out and downtime resets.

The only thing that keeps NPC trade goods from creating an unstoppable faucet of ISK is the amount of player-time required to actually take advantage of it by hauling it around, which is prohibitive.

In fact, some new pilots do use NPC trade goods hauling to make their living until they can acquire enough capital to compete in the real player-to-player trading markets. It's not exactly optimal in terms of time spent/ISK earned, but it does work. Exactly like missions, this activity magically creates ISK out of nothing (except the player's time), much like a themepark MMO, and contributes to ISK cost inflation of useful goods. However it contributes exactly zero to all other NPC ISK sinks/sources: it's a purely localized effect only.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-06-05 18:24:46 UTC
NPC goods you mention are seeded on the market.

They have a price that is monitored, so prices do change from system to system a bit and thus is an easy to get into trading.

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Peri Simone
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2012-06-06 00:23:37 UTC
Erik Valensteed wrote:
Well, here is why I am asking.

Let's say that the median buying price for spiced wine is 1600 ISK. A player buys up all the spiced wine in a system that is 1600 ISK and below, and then waits. Will the inevitable lack of spiced wine importing (because players are not going to buy spiced wine for trade runs if there is none available below 1600) drive the buying price up as the supply in the buying system runs low?

Or is the system based on not real supply and demand mechanic.


NPC trade goods such as spiced wine, cigarettes and passengers are a very small part of the Eve market system and do not work on a real supply and demand mechanic. I've always seen them as a sort of introduction to trading for new players.

The vast majority of items traded in game are player created, and the market in general is based on genuine supply and demand, rather than a mechanic. Serious Eve traders deal in hundreds of billions, even trillions of isk, and are well versed in real world market strategy.

If this is something you're interested in there's an incredibly rich level of gameplay here - check out the Market Discussion forum for more detailed information.
malaire
#13 - 2012-06-06 08:31:07 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
NPC prices of skillbooks and blueprints (and a few other items, like sov upgrades) are fixed and never change.

NPC skillbook prices can also change, at least for some of them. I noticed this once but didn't inspect it further. (I bought all skillbooks at certain station and NPC made new order at higher price.)

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