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Can someone explain the diff (another MinerHate-related thread)

Author
Mina Hiragi
Perkone
Caldari State
#21 - 2012-06-04 18:44:32 UTC
Nefertiri Ra'apharo wrote:
So if these miners were only out to make isk, wouldn't it be a lot smarter and cheaper to just max out Trade skills and sit in station to trade? I mean it's about as AFK as you can get, just set it and forget it (well maybe check yer prices periodically) and you don't have to shell out isk for big fat Hulk fleets plus fittings.
And if the beef with the miners is because they AFK, .. well.. traders pretty much corner the market on AFK (pun intended).

I dunno I'm just trying to make sense of all this.


Traders == AFK, but sitting and spinning in stations.

Miners == AFK, but sitting in space - therefore, at risk of being blown up.

Hatred isn't so much, "Death to all miners everywhere!" so much as it's against miners who are sitting in space, potentially AFK, who get blown up - and then cry about being blown up. In space. Where you're at risk of being blown up.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#22 - 2012-06-04 18:45:15 UTC
Nefertiri Ra'apharo wrote:
And if the beef with the miners is because they AFK
It's not.
Ituhata Saken
Killboard Padding Services
#23 - 2012-06-04 18:46:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Ituhata Saken
Nefertiri Ra'apharo wrote:

And if the beef with the miners is because they AFK, .. well.. traders pretty much corner the market on AFK (pun intended).

I dunno I'm just trying to make sense of all this.


And again, the traders are vulnerable fiscally to the miners, the lowest common denominator in the production chain. If all the miners start raising the prices on ore, the trader has no choice but to pay or undock and go mine his own material. Blink

So close...

Ira Theos
#24 - 2012-06-04 18:56:11 UTC
Confirming that I routinely sit in HighSec, LowSec, and ZeroSec stations and capture obscene amounts of isk from Alliance Sheep without ever undocking a ship.

Cheers and Cha-Ching !Pirate
Nefertiri Ra'apharo
Mabad Ilhba Alasw'd
#25 - 2012-06-04 18:56:53 UTC
Ituhata Saken wrote:
Nefertiri Ra'apharo wrote:

And if the beef with the miners is because they AFK, .. well.. traders pretty much corner the market on AFK (pun intended).

I dunno I'm just trying to make sense of all this.


And again, the traders are vulnerable fiscally to the miners, the lowest common denominator in the production chain. If all the miners start raising the prices on ore, the trader has no choice but to pay or undock and go mine his own material. Blink


But if the miners are getting whacked the Ores are gonna go up and if the traders go out to get it themselves they become the targets of aggression now.
Ituhata Saken
Killboard Padding Services
#26 - 2012-06-04 18:58:37 UTC
Nefertiri Ra'apharo wrote:
Ituhata Saken wrote:
Nefertiri Ra'apharo wrote:

And if the beef with the miners is because they AFK, .. well.. traders pretty much corner the market on AFK (pun intended).

I dunno I'm just trying to make sense of all this.


And again, the traders are vulnerable fiscally to the miners, the lowest common denominator in the production chain. If all the miners start raising the prices on ore, the trader has no choice but to pay or undock and go mine his own material. Blink


But if the miners are getting whacked the Ores are gonna go up and if the traders go out to get it themselves they become the targets of aggression now.


Exactly! The system works because no one is immune from the effects of other players. Big smile

So close...

Nefertiri Ra'apharo
Mabad Ilhba Alasw'd
#27 - 2012-06-04 19:00:27 UTC
Ira Theos wrote:
Confirming that I routinely sit in HighSec, LowSec, and ZeroSec stations and capture obscene amounts of isk from Alliance Sheep without ever undocking a ship.

Cheers and Cha-Ching !Pirate


Exactly. I guess I don't understand why people are mining when they could be making way better isk by Trading.
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#28 - 2012-06-04 19:02:16 UTC
Ban Bindy wrote:
Akita T wrote:
Trading is PvP with ISK, mining is PvE against things that can't shoot back.

Are there a lot of games that involve mining where the rocks fight back? I'm sorry, I can't think of any.

You're missing the point. The point was to figure out which one between trading and mining is more "carebearish", not to discuss the merits of mining in EVE as opposed to mining somewhere else.
To make it a bit clearer, ganking is PvP with ships against stuff that seldom shoots back, mission-running is PvE with ships against things that usually shoot back.
All four activities are somewhat carebearish in nature. Mining is clearly the carebearishest of them all.
Nefertiri Ra'apharo
Mabad Ilhba Alasw'd
#29 - 2012-06-04 19:02:50 UTC
Ituhata Saken wrote:
Nefertiri Ra'apharo wrote:
Ituhata Saken wrote:
Nefertiri Ra'apharo wrote:

And if the beef with the miners is because they AFK, .. well.. traders pretty much corner the market on AFK (pun intended).

I dunno I'm just trying to make sense of all this.


And again, the traders are vulnerable fiscally to the miners, the lowest common denominator in the production chain. If all the miners start raising the prices on ore, the trader has no choice but to pay or undock and go mine his own material. Blink


But if the miners are getting whacked the Ores are gonna go up and if the traders go out to get it themselves they become the targets of aggression now.


Exactly! The system works because no one is immune from the effects of other players. Big smile


IMO makes more sense to just pay the higher Ore prices!
Nefertiri Ra'apharo
Mabad Ilhba Alasw'd
#30 - 2012-06-04 19:05:08 UTC
Akita T wrote:
Ban Bindy wrote:
Akita T wrote:
Trading is PvP with ISK, mining is PvE against things that can't shoot back.

Are there a lot of games that involve mining where the rocks fight back? I'm sorry, I can't think of any.

You're missing the point. The point was to figure out which one between trading and mining is more "carebearish", not to discuss the merits of mining in EVE as opposed to mining somewhere else.
To make it a bit clearer, ganking is PvP with ships against stuff that seldom shoots back, mission-running is PvE with ships against things that usually shoot back.
All four activities are somewhat carebearish in nature. Mining is clearly the carebearishest of them all.


Thank you.
Ituhata Saken
Killboard Padding Services
#31 - 2012-06-04 19:07:19 UTC
Nefertiri Ra'apharo wrote:
Ituhata Saken wrote:
Nefertiri Ra'apharo wrote:
Ituhata Saken wrote:
Nefertiri Ra'apharo wrote:

And if the beef with the miners is because they AFK, .. well.. traders pretty much corner the market on AFK (pun intended).

I dunno I'm just trying to make sense of all this.


And again, the traders are vulnerable fiscally to the miners, the lowest common denominator in the production chain. If all the miners start raising the prices on ore, the trader has no choice but to pay or undock and go mine his own material. Blink


But if the miners are getting whacked the Ores are gonna go up and if the traders go out to get it themselves they become the targets of aggression now.


Exactly! The system works because no one is immune from the effects of other players. Big smile


IMO makes more sense to just pay the higher Ore prices!


Even so the point is they are at the mercy of other players. I'm not saying all, but some hisec miners would like CCP to make them immune to attack in hisec, therefore completely immune to the effects of other players. That, I believe, is the heart of the issue.

So close...

Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
#32 - 2012-06-04 19:10:50 UTC
Akita T wrote:
All four activities are somewhat carebearish in nature. Mining is clearly the carebearishest of them all.


Agreed, but I'm not so sure mining is the least dangerous anymore...it certainly used to be though, granted.

These days, it's a bit tense pulling out the Hulk. So much so that it's kinda killed the relaxing experience of mining. Whether this is psychological is irrelevant. With mining being so intense now, I find myself not logging in as much. EvE used to be a kind of relaxing escape from hectic work days.

Not so much anymore.
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#33 - 2012-06-04 19:15:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
Ana Vyr wrote:
These days, it's a bit tense pulling out the Hulk.

I never really understood the Hulk obsession.
A Covetor costs a negligible amount of ISK compared to a Hulk and has a yield of roughly 80% that of a Hulk with both ships in a maxed-out mining yield configuration.

Given that only Hulks are being hunted right now, and considering how "rewarding" highsec mining is, you'd probably need to mine somewhat tensely on a full-time-job schedule for nearly a month to offset even a single Hulk loss compared to just mining in near total safety in a Covetor.
Aramatheia
Tiffany and Co.
#34 - 2012-06-04 19:17:24 UTC
Nefertiri Ra'apharo wrote:
Ok I know there's severe prejudice against Carebear Miners right now, but can someone tell me why it does not extend to traders? You know the kind - those who only have Trade skills trained (and maxxed) and sit in station 23.5/7 and don't ever EVERRRRR even undock their entire game life. Aren't they the ultimate Carebear, worse even than miners? I mean they have zero ship skills and at least the miners actually undock and have trained to fly something bigger than a racial frigate. Following the logic of the popular Miner-hate, shouldn't these guys be even higher on the Who-to-Hate list since they are playing Eve even wrong-er than Miners because they don't even FLY!? Or are they not getting any Hate simply because since they don't undock they can't get 'sploded?

Discuss.


problem is though miners hit space and actually enter the grinder. A miner can be blown up because a miner is in the presence of space, and blasters. Untill it becomes possible to destroy high sec stations and kill everyone inside, those station going traders are immune
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2012-06-04 19:20:05 UTC
Traders actively play the game. They have to follow events in the game very closely to predict which will be the most profitable items. They have to dodge gate camps (even in hi-sec) to ship their goods from here to there. Traders have to be careful not to get into a bad investment. They also have to time things perfectly, a market could appear somewhere one day due to an increase in suicide ganking in the region, and collapse just as quickly as the miners move somewhere else.

Hi-sec miners just sit in a belt, turn on their mining lasers and go afk to walk the dog or something. They aren't actively playing the game. If they were then suicide ganking wouldn't be such a problem because they would catch a tornado warping in on their D-scan and GTFO.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#36 - 2012-06-04 19:29:44 UTC
Miners losing multiple billions to a single small mistake, or to less than optimal timing, or by being outsmarted by another player... that almost never happens (unless somebody's stupid enough to officer-fit a Hulk or AFK mine in a carrier), however plenty of traders surely had it happen to them.
Wilma Lawson
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2012-06-04 19:35:27 UTC
Nefertiri Ra'apharo wrote:
I dunno I'm just trying to make sense of all this.

I understand this, but you won't. The extremes of both sides have tried to rationalize their point of view and neither has succeeded.

Simply put:

  • high sec gankers are criminals (in Eve) and like to gank miners (among other groups), all within game mechanics and rules.
  • some high sec miners, can't accept that this might happen and be legitimate game mechanics and rules.

Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#38 - 2012-06-04 19:36:41 UTC
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
Market pvp is deadly! You don're want get involved in those who wage war over .01 isk.


Unlike some think, never undock can be dangerous if you play market games Lol

brb

Wilma Lawson
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2012-06-04 19:38:50 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Hi-sec miners just sit in a belt, turn on their mining lasers and go afk to walk the dog or something.

Clearly you haven't done much mining. :)
Cargo space is not unlimited.
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
#40 - 2012-06-04 19:44:18 UTC
Akita T wrote:
Ana Vyr wrote:
These days, it's a bit tense pulling out the Hulk.

I never really understood the Hulk obsession.
A Covetor costs a negligible amount of ISK compared to a Hulk and has a yield of roughly 80% that of a Hulk with both ships in a maxed-out mining yield configuration.

Given that only Hulks are being hunted right now, and considering how "rewarding" highsec mining is, you'd probably need to mine somewhat tensely on a full-time-job schedule for nearly a month to offset even a single Hulk loss compared to just mining in near total safety in a Covetor.


I hear you...these days I have been flying a covetor mostly. But it's like anything in a game, you want to use the best tool for the job in terms of mining yield, because mining is boring...maximum yield is really the game you play as a miner. I know that PvPer's will often pull out a crap ship to fight with because losses are inevitable, but mining didn't used to be like it is today, and losing your Hulk wasn't an inevitability.
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