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Question about aggression timers
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Eyezpiddydafooh
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2012-06-04 14:22:41 UTC
I have a 5 man corporation and would like to run mining ops in high sec like I used to but need to know how the aggression timer works against players.

If my miners are attacked by gankers can other corp members shield rep or armor rep the Hulks without getting 'corded (Concord) if we are all in fleet?

Also, does this mean the repping ships will now have aggression timers from the attacking gankers?
Forest Archer
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-06-04 14:33:43 UTC
Eyezpiddydafooh wrote:
I have a 5 man corporation and would like to run mining ops in high sec like I used to but need to know how the aggression timer works against players.

If my miners are attacked by gankers can other corp members shield rep or armor rep the Hulks without getting 'corded (Concord) if we are all in fleet?

Also, does this mean the repping ships will now have aggression timers from the attacking gankers?


You can't get concorded for repping another player unless the player you are repping is going to be destroyed by concord.
The aggression from from attacker on the other hand depends what exactly you are implying.

Always willing to help all you have to do is ask, though if you're in the other fleet I may not help the way you want. Just a heads up. Pub Channel: Lost Souls Trading Post
Louis deGuerre
The Dark Tribe
#3 - 2012-06-04 14:34:03 UTC
Yes and yes

Well, 99% sure anyways Bear
Ilkahn
Ideal Mechanisms
#4 - 2012-06-04 14:35:02 UTC
if you remote rep your mining ships, the repper will become a viable target. However, a RemoteRep (RR) battleship will likely survive much moreso than a mining ship till concord arrives.

This is of course assuming it's a 1-2 man gank and you are in a relatively hi security area (like maybe .8 and up)

Aggression timers are 30 seconds or 1 minute, i can't remember off top of head.

Global Criminal Countdown (GCC) are 15 min timers. They can't undock in another warship till that runs out or it will be killed as well.

NOTE: I've been out of game for a few months, so timers may have changed (shortened up). Seems the Invul timer at undock has shortened.
Sin Pew
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2012-06-04 14:43:51 UTC
Provided you have the time to react, lock the friendly being ganked and rep him before he goes ... oooooh splosions!

[i]"haiku are easy, But sometimes they don't make sense, Refrigerator."[/i]
Velicitia
XS Tech
#6 - 2012-06-04 15:00:05 UTC
Ilkahn wrote:
if you remote rep your mining ships, the repper will become a viable target. However, a RemoteRep (RR) battleship will likely survive much moreso than a mining ship till concord arrives.

This is of course assuming it's a 1-2 man gank and you are in a relatively hi security area (like maybe .8 and up)

Aggression timers are 30 seconds or 1 minute, i can't remember off top of head.

Global Criminal Countdown (GCC) are 15 min timers. They can't undock in another warship till that runs out or it will be killed as well.

NOTE: I've been out of game for a few months, so timers may have changed (shortened up). Seems the Invul timer at undock has shortened.



aggression is still 15 minutes.
The 30-60 second timer you're thinking about is the "no jump/dock" timer at a station or gate...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-06-04 15:04:00 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Also, members of the same corp can do anything to each other without CONCORD. Even shoot each other.

Within the same corp there is NO concord security.

As for repping the Hulk when he is shot at, keep in mind the guys that has aggro on the hulk also gets aggro on the reppers.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#8 - 2012-06-04 15:37:48 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#9 - 2012-06-04 16:38:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
I wrote an article about how to fight suicide gankers:

Fighting Hulkageddon

In it, there is a section covering aggression timers:

Quote:

Aggression timers:

Understanding aggression timers is an important aspect of PvP. If you shoot someone, there are multiple timers you character receives, all of which are called aggression timers. Here are the timers that most PvP’ers talk about:

1.) Aggression timer 1: Whenever you actively attack a target, you get a 60 second aggression timer that prevents your ship from docking or activating a gate.

2.) Aggression Timer 2: Whenever you aggress or have been aggressed, you get a 15 minute aggression timer that prevents your ship from disappearing when you log off. This timer can be extended indefinitely if an aggressor continues to aggress you.

3.) Aggression Timer 3: Whenever you aggress a target (in lowsec or highsec), you get a 15 minute aggression timer during which the target you aggressed can legally come and shoot you without concord intervention. You can also get this timer by stealing loot out of a can or wreck. Stealing will enable aggression from the can’s owner, and potentially their entire corp. Additionally, repping or remote assisting someone with this timer will get you this timer too. This is very important for logistics.

4.) Criminal Timer (GCC): Whenever you do something illegal, you get a 15 minute criminal timer. When you have this timer, if you enter hisec space while in a ship, concord cometh and concord destroyeth.

Aggression Timer 3 has several nuances pilots should be aware of. When a ganker is trying to gank a ship, and the ship defends itself, that defender gets Aggression timer 3 such that a ganker can legally shoot his ship. However, suicide gankers are committing a criminal act which gives them a 15 minute criminal timer too. Since these timers are the same length, the defending pilot doesn’t need to worry about legal retaliation, because the criminal is a criminal during the entire length of Aggression Timer 3, meaning if he boards a ship, concord destroys it. If a logistics pilot reps the defender, to help him survive the gank, the Aggression timer 3 is transferred to the logi pilot too. Assuming the logi pilot stops repping at the end of the gank, he’s in the same boat as the defender (happy and safe). However, if the logi pilot continues to rep the defender, or perhaps reps the defender 10 minutes later due to rat agro or whatever, he will RENEW his 15 minute aggression timer 3 with each rep cycle. This means, a rep-happy logi pilot can find himself a LEGAL target of the ganker that no longer has a criminal flag… nom nom nom nom…

A warning for Logistics pilots: If the bait ship you are repping is being LEGALLY shot at, and you rep them, you will also become a LEGAL target for those legally shooting the bait ship. When you are being legally shot at, concord will NOT come to the rescue. If the bait ship is a war target, if someone has killrights on them, or if they steal from a can, they could be a legal target. You'll be safe as long as you make sure the aggressor is criminally flagged before you rep the bait. With the default overview, if the attackers are flashy red to your logistics ship, it’s safe to rep the bait ship.

Another note: Can flippers like to steal your loot, and put it in a can next to you. If you take that loot, you become a legal target for him and his entire corp. Don’t risk it… Instead, take a noobship alt that doesn’t have implants or skill points, fly it to the can, and have the alt steal from the can flipper’s can, putting it into a third can. Then steal the loot from your alt.



Edit: The mechanics of aggression timers are going to change when CCP updates crimewatch (the background program that monitors and controls aggresseion timers). This is scheduled to happen with the next big Inferno Release, but may be pushed back depending on how far the developers get with it.
Forest Archer
State War Academy
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-06-04 17:06:06 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
Also, members of the same corp can do anything to each other without CONCORD. Even shoot each other.

Within the same corp there is NO concord security.

As for repping the Hulk when he is shot at, keep in mind the guys that has aggro on the hulk also gets aggro on the reppers.


Unless the person you are repping does something to get concorded such as shooting a neutral, a station, etc.

Always willing to help all you have to do is ask, though if you're in the other fleet I may not help the way you want. Just a heads up. Pub Channel: Lost Souls Trading Post
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#11 - 2012-06-04 18:01:06 UTC
Biggest problem is alpha, no amount of reps will help if the hulk gets insta popped before those reps can even complete a cycle, let alone target lock. P
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#12 - 2012-06-04 18:08:18 UTC
Baneken wrote:
Biggest problem is alpha, no amount of reps will help if the hulk gets insta popped before those reps can even complete a cycle, let alone target lock. P


If you're hulk can be alpha'd by a single ship, you're fitting it wrong. You can easily tank a hulk that will survive a dual tornado alpha shot.... but it requires a tradeoff between tank and yield.
Eyezpiddydafooh
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2012-06-04 18:53:12 UTC
Thanks to everyone for the excellent replies. This is extremely helpful.

I have another option though and not sure how this would work.

So I have 5 logi ships sitting in belt constantly repping the Hulk, even before anyone engages for gank purposes. In comes the gankers and they target said Hulk and begin to alpha.

1) Would this increase survivability of the Hulk (of course depending on amount of gankers)?

2) Since the logis were repping prior to the gank first strike do they still get the aggression timer even though they were repping beforehand?

NOTE: Not sure if you can target and rep someone that is at 100% shield/armor
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#14 - 2012-06-04 19:47:04 UTC
Eyezpiddydafooh wrote:
Thanks to everyone for the excellent replies. This is extremely helpful.

I have another option though and not sure how this would work.

So I have 5 logi ships sitting in belt constantly repping the Hulk, even before anyone engages for gank purposes. In comes the gankers and they target said Hulk and begin to alpha.

1) Would this increase survivability of the Hulk (of course depending on amount of gankers)?

2) Since the logis were repping prior to the gank first strike do they still get the aggression timer even though they were repping beforehand?

NOTE: Not sure if you can target and rep someone that is at 100% shield/armor



1.) Depends on the buffer of the hulk. If the hulk doesn't have enough buffer to survive an alpha shot, then no amount of remote reps will keep it alive. So, if the enemy can bring enough alpha, they can destroy the hulk despite your logi ships. Really, for RR to work, you need enough buffer to survive the incoming volleys, and you need enough time between volleys to rep up the damage taken. When the enemy is using multiple Alpha ships, there will be a small window between the incoming volleys of each ship, but you still need a solid buffer and lots of perfectly timed rep cycles to keep it up.

2.) Aggression timer 3 is the aggression you are refering to here. The only way the logi's will get aggression timer 3, is if the ship they are repping (i.e. the hulk) is a LEGAL target for the 3rd Party attackers. The only way the HULK will be a legal target for the aggressors is: I
a.) The hulk ATTACKS the attackers using EWAR or Drones or whatever.
b.) The hulk steals from the attacker's can.
c.) The hulk piltot is at war with the attackers.
d.) The attackers have killrights on the Hulk.
Someone please remind me if I'm forgetting something.

In the Event the Logistics pilot is about to inherit an aggression timer from the hulk, all reppsers will automatically shut off. Then, when the logi pilot attempts to rep said target, the logi pilot will get a pop up warning advising them that repping the target will make them a legal target for some 3rd party and ask them if they wish to proceed.