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PvE Fun Gap. A Suggestion from a New Player.

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Vincent Wright
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-06-03 23:08:24 UTC
Hello,

I have been playing games for 13 years now and i played a lot of them.

1 1/2 Months ago i joined EVE and the Content is realy exciting and challenging for a HC gamer.

I am interested in PvP so i choose my source of ISK income to have the most Skill synnergy possible: PvE Security Missioning.
Im am happily soloing L4s in my Myrmidon, the Hull i want to use for PvP aswell, when i can afford it. Untill then i use Rifters for PvP.

There is something that struck me only recently:
L4s became too boring/easy soloing so i fleeted up with some people from my starter coorporation to inc fun.
Needless to say L4s get tooooo easy and boring after a while with 1BS 2BC 2Cruisers and a Noctis.
Thats a fleet new gamers can do and effectively run when they are like 2 weeks-3 Months in the Game.
BS Tankfit pulls aggro, rest fit dps and concentrate on their favourite target.

A L5 mission would now be the perfect challenge for us, but as you all know they are exclusive to low-sec.
As PvE and PvP Fits being totaly different and the PvE fittet player will loose 100% of the time, the risk is so high that its not reasonable for us to try it. The L5 would be a challange pushing our small/young fleet to the limit so we cant really risk being ganked on top of that.
I know that a skilled and specialised player could gank our whole fleet with only 1 specialized T1 Cruiser., if we choose to stay and defend.

An incursion on the other hand is totaly out of reach for us.

The conclusion is: There is huge Gap in PvE gaming in EVE.
The steps between L1, L2, L3, L4 are totaly negligable. Any mediocre skilled Player can run through all those stages in about a Month or less. In Fact: the only thing that kept me from doing L3s or L4s quicker was the Fact that i had to grind reupation to be allowed to get one. (Wich is in my eyes totaly not understandable looking at EVEs general mechanics)

I know that HighSec L5s where discontinued because of exploits of Older players that would easily botfarm/multibox/grind them. Thing is: those players can still do that. The only ones this hurts are medium-young players seeking some fleet experience and teamworking mechanics.

Reintroducing young-player friendly, team oriented PvE game contend egual in difficulty to L5s would totaly make the game more attractive. The other option would be to review Mission level scaling and make it more significant, since the vast Content of diverse L1-L3 missions is finished and forgotten in only a fraction of the Players total ingame lifespan.

Keep in mind that an Old ISK heavy Multiboxig Player can afford to grind L5 missions in lowsec.
He is better at compensating the risk and potential ISK lost and is not as vulnurable to gankers because he has much more SP.

Ah and please make it challenging. Not in the sense of "Insert moAr ISK/Time here" but "insert brain and teamplay here"

I love this game and i sure will enjoy it for many years to come. Thx CCP for this outstanding Job of Programming and Gamedesign.

P.S.: Please make a Faction or Tech II Projectile/Drone/Armortank Cruiser or BC =) (sry for the bad english its not my native langauge)
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#2 - 2012-06-03 23:26:26 UTC
Just have your DPSer PVP fit, and you are all good. A cloaky falcon hiding in the mission site with you can never go wrong either, and is funny as hell if they didn't see it coming.

Also, a domi or ishtar can pack quite a few drones, which can cause them to be decently viable in pvp even when they are PVE for(my ishtar fit has an explosive resist rig for exactly this reason) so they can unless some surprises with a flight of EC-600s that you just hang on to for the purposes of pvp.

As a last consideration, you can pull your local chat out so it is in its own window, allowing you to monitor local and warp to a safe if anyone potentially hostile come into system(you should have many of these, and warp between them continually while the hostiles are there, or have a cloak fit) which should also work to keep you safe.

Doing L5s is very good prep for PVP because it forces you to maintain situational awareness, and a high degree of planning in a group to pull off.

Good luck

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Unimaginative Guy
Dutch Squad
#3 - 2012-06-03 23:41:23 UTC
Just roll with a logi and 3-4other people in buffer pvp ships. Cloaked falcon is a total plus.

I don't know the dps of l5s but im sure a armor cane/armor myrm or shield drake or shield cane can tank one with like...scimitar reps
Vincent Wright
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-06-03 23:47:29 UTC
Thx a lot for reply and suggestions Tallian.
That would be the way we would try it.
But still:
1 Domi with some faction hardeners and TII Items: 120 Million EST Value.
2 Myrm around 100 Million each: 200 Million
2 Vexors: 20 Million
1 Noctis 90 Million
Makes 430 Million in total value.

I expect experienced gankers to invest accordingly.
1 month is enough to have such a high opinion on the intelligence and cleverness of the EVE communty ;)

So what u think of reintroducing highsec team oriented PvE for small fleets of semi-rookies?
Vincent Wright
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-06-03 23:50:14 UTC
Unimaginative Guy wrote:
Just roll with a logi and 3-4other people in buffer pvp ships. Cloaked falcon is a total plus.

I don't know the dps of l5s but im sure a armor cane/armor myrm or shield drake or shield cane can tank one with like...scimitar reps


the point was not how to do L5s. im sure we can do them. the point is the added extreme risk of gankers new players can only hardly manage on top of a L5
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#6 - 2012-06-03 23:53:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Tallian Saotome
2 Things.

1) Don't give away free intel, by say, posting exactly what you are gonna be flying and how much its worth on the forums

2) Don't use faction fit in that situation, it will get you killed if anyone notices... They will bring enough.

Edit: Remember, we are all out to get you, even those who give you good advice Blink

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2012-06-03 23:56:58 UTC
Well, since you're all fairly new players you probably could grind standings with the Corporation of lv 4 Epic Arc starting agents, then run the arcs. The Corporation needs to be +5.00 or higher standing and your Faction only needs to be above -2.00 standing. Another option for access is if your Faction standing is +5.00 or higher, you can access the agents. Those missions are tougher than regular level 4 missions and they give an excellent boost to Faction standing with little to no derived standings towards other Factions. They can also be completed every 3 months.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Epic_mission_arcs

And then there's Cosmos agents but they require a higher amount of Faction standing for access and don't accept Corporation standing for access. They also give an excellent Faction standing increase, but they also give derived standings, both negative and positive, to all other Factions. Running the Epic Arc missions would definitely give a boost to accessing Cosmos. Each level of Cosmos missions is roughly about a step or 2 above the regular level missions.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/COSMOS

Since you have Fleet members, after all of you gain the corp standings needed to access the Epic Arcs, each member could access the Epic Arc agents by themselves and then all Fleet members run each members missions back to back while fleeted. That way you each gain standing but can still stay fleeted. Best when completing the mission with agent, each member does it as a solo player. Also remember that Faction standing increases are not shared.


That will definitely give you experience on working as a team, could even incorporate some EWAR tactics such as point, logistics, etc.



DMC

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Vincent Wright
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2012-06-03 23:59:26 UTC
again: i dont and we dont plan on doing L5s in lowsec exactly because of those reasons
Vincent Wright
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2012-06-04 00:02:00 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Well, since you're all fairly new players you probably could grind standings with the Corporation of lv 4 Epic Arc starting agents, then run the arcs. The Corporation needs to be +5.00 or higher standing and your Faction only needs to be above -2.00 standing. Another option for access is if your Faction standing is +5.00 or higher, you can access the agents. Those missions are tougher than regular level 4 missions and they give an excellent boost to Faction standing with little to no derived standings towards other Factions. They can also be completed every 3 months.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Epic_mission_arcs

And then there's Cosmos agents but they require a higher amount of Faction standing for access and don't accept Corporation standing for access. They also give an excellent Faction standing increase, but they also give derived standings, both negative and positive, to all other Factions. Running the Epic Arc missions would definitely give a boost to accessing Cosmos. Each level of Cosmos missions is roughly about a step or 2 above the regular level missions.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/COSMOS

Since you have Fleet members, after all of you gain the corp standings needed to access the Epic Arcs, each member could access the Epic Arc agents by themselves and then all Fleet members run each members missions back to back while fleeted. That way you each gain standing but can still stay fleeted. Best when completing the mission with agent, each member does it as a solo player. Also remember that Faction standing increases are not shared.


That will definitely give you experience on working as a team, could even incorporate some EWAR tactics such as point, logistics, etc.



DMC


thx man that was awesome info :)
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#10 - 2012-06-04 00:03:49 UTC
Vincent Wright wrote:
Thx a lot for reply and suggestions Tallian.
That would be the way we would try it.
But still:
1 Domi with some faction hardeners and TII Items: 120 Million EST Value.
2 Myrm around 100 Million each: 200 Million
2 Vexors: 20 Million
1 Noctis 90 Million
Makes 430 Million in total value.

I expect experienced gankers to invest accordingly.
1 month is enough to have such a high opinion on the intelligence and cleverness of the EVE communty ;)

So what u think of reintroducing highsec team oriented PvE for small fleets of semi-rookies?

In high sec? No, not unless it pays as well as or worse than level fours.

As for gankers, not many solo players would take on that fleet. But besides, you shouldn't be fighting in PvE ships, the game goes out of its way to give you methods to avoid combat, try joining a decent low sec corporation and learn them.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
gfldex
#11 - 2012-06-04 00:09:11 UTC
Vincent Wright wrote:
again: i dont and we dont plan on doing L5s in lowsec exactly because of those reasons


We do understand what you want. LVL5 missions in highsec. You want less risk for the same reward. That wont work because not only you but any bad player in the game would utilize that content and in the result drive the value of the reward down. It wont work one way or another.

You further make assumptions about how to operate in lowsec. Those assumptions are wrong. Given that there are players that do run those lvl5 mission in lowsec there must be something they do right that you do wrong. Little hint: it's not related to fittings or skillpoints.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#12 - 2012-06-04 00:09:59 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Vincent Wright wrote:
Thx a lot for reply and suggestions Tallian.
That would be the way we would try it.
But still:
1 Domi with some faction hardeners and TII Items: 120 Million EST Value.
2 Myrm around 100 Million each: 200 Million
2 Vexors: 20 Million
1 Noctis 90 Million
Makes 430 Million in total value.

I expect experienced gankers to invest accordingly.
1 month is enough to have such a high opinion on the intelligence and cleverness of the EVE communty ;)

So what u think of reintroducing highsec team oriented PvE for small fleets of semi-rookies?

In high sec? No, not unless it pays as well as or worse than level fours.

As for gankers, not many solo players would take on that fleet. But besides, you shouldn't be fighting in PvE ships, the game goes out of its way to give you methods to avoid combat, try joining a decent low sec corporation and learn them.

Hes talking about L5s. There are no L5s in highsec.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Vincent Wright
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2012-06-04 00:14:32 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Vincent Wright wrote:
Thx a lot for reply and suggestions Tallian.
That would be the way we would try it.
But still:
1 Domi with some faction hardeners and TII Items: 120 Million EST Value.
2 Myrm around 100 Million each: 200 Million
2 Vexors: 20 Million
1 Noctis 90 Million
Makes 430 Million in total value.

I expect experienced gankers to invest accordingly.
1 month is enough to have such a high opinion on the intelligence and cleverness of the EVE communty ;)

So what u think of reintroducing highsec team oriented PvE for small fleets of semi-rookies?

In high sec? No, not unless it pays as well as or worse than level fours.

As for gankers, not many solo players would take on that fleet. But besides, you shouldn't be fighting in PvE ships, the game goes out of its way to give you methods to avoid combat, try joining a decent low sec corporation and learn them.


i/we dont care if there is less ISK. we play for fun.
i didnt explicitly say it would be one person.
so i should use an AC/dual or triple rep myrm with web/point and cap boosters (wich would be totaly worth it ISK wise) for level 4 security missions?
sounds reasonable.
there are as much ways to avoid combat as to prevent that.
ability/experience/SP and ISK are the factors in that, all of wich older players exceed.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#14 - 2012-06-04 00:15:50 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Vincent Wright wrote:
Thx a lot for reply and suggestions Tallian.
That would be the way we would try it.
But still:
1 Domi with some faction hardeners and TII Items: 120 Million EST Value.
2 Myrm around 100 Million each: 200 Million
2 Vexors: 20 Million
1 Noctis 90 Million
Makes 430 Million in total value.

I expect experienced gankers to invest accordingly.
1 month is enough to have such a high opinion on the intelligence and cleverness of the EVE communty ;)

So what u think of reintroducing highsec team oriented PvE for small fleets of semi-rookies?

In high sec? No, not unless it pays as well as or worse than level fours.

As for gankers, not many solo players would take on that fleet. But besides, you shouldn't be fighting in PvE ships, the game goes out of its way to give you methods to avoid combat, try joining a decent low sec corporation and learn them.

Hes talking about L5s. There are no L5s in highsec.

"So what u think of reintroducing highsec team oriented PvE"

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#15 - 2012-06-04 00:18:47 UTC
Vincent Wright wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Vincent Wright wrote:
Thx a lot for reply and suggestions Tallian.
That would be the way we would try it.
But still:
1 Domi with some faction hardeners and TII Items: 120 Million EST Value.
2 Myrm around 100 Million each: 200 Million
2 Vexors: 20 Million
1 Noctis 90 Million
Makes 430 Million in total value.

I expect experienced gankers to invest accordingly.
1 month is enough to have such a high opinion on the intelligence and cleverness of the EVE communty ;)

So what u think of reintroducing highsec team oriented PvE for small fleets of semi-rookies?

In high sec? No, not unless it pays as well as or worse than level fours.

As for gankers, not many solo players would take on that fleet. But besides, you shouldn't be fighting in PvE ships, the game goes out of its way to give you methods to avoid combat, try joining a decent low sec corporation and learn them.


i/we dont care if there is less ISK. we play for fun.
i didnt explicitly say it would be one person.
so i should use an AC/dual or triple rep myrm with web/point and cap boosters (wich would be totaly worth it ISK wise) for level 4 security missions?
sounds reasonable.
there are as much ways to avoid combat as to prevent that.
ability/experience/SP and ISK are the factors in that, all of wich older players exceed.

No, you shouldn't really being PvEing in PvP ships either. Although feel free to if you want to try spider tanking, or buffer fit and use logi.

My point was that you shouldn't be worrying about fighting attackers, just avoid them.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2012-06-04 00:21:43 UTC
If you play for fun go do incursions.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Vincent Wright
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2012-06-04 00:22:37 UTC
gfldex wrote:
Vincent Wright wrote:
again: i dont and we dont plan on doing L5s in lowsec exactly because of those reasons


We do understand what you want. LVL5 missions in highsec. You want less risk for the same reward. That wont work because not only you but any bad player in the game would utilize that content and in the result drive the value of the reward down. It wont work one way or another.

You further make assumptions about how to operate in lowsec. Those assumptions are wrong. Given that there are players that do run those lvl5 mission in lowsec there must be something they do right that you do wrong. Little hint: it's not related to fittings or skillpoints.


i dont want to have those highsec L5s net the same rewards as lowsec.
i would totaly support that every lowsec mission nets more reward no matter wich level it is.
true there is a lot i dont know about low sec and i bet there is a lot a player can do to minimize the dangers.
but the thing is: for semi-rookie players the huge effort to make low sec L5s is just not worth the fun.
so there is a gap for new players and thats what i am referring to.
Vincent Wright
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2012-06-04 00:24:50 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
If you play for fun go do incursions.


there is a reason ppl use T3 Cruiser T2 logi etc fleets for incursions.
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2012-06-04 00:26:19 UTC
Vincent Wright wrote:
Snow Axe wrote:
If you play for fun go do incursions.


there is a reason ppl use T3 Cruiser T2 logi etc fleets for incursions.


Yeah. Speed. Shouldn't be a problem for you guys, right? You're just playing for fun!

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Vincent Wright
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2012-06-04 00:31:08 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Vincent Wright wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Vincent Wright wrote:
Thx a lot for reply and suggestions Tallian.
That would be the way we would try it.
But still:
1 Domi with some faction hardeners and TII Items: 120 Million EST Value.
2 Myrm around 100 Million each: 200 Million
2 Vexors: 20 Million
1 Noctis 90 Million
Makes 430 Million in total value.

I expect experienced gankers to invest accordingly.
1 month is enough to have such a high opinion on the intelligence and cleverness of the EVE communty ;)

So what u think of reintroducing highsec team oriented PvE for small fleets of semi-rookies?

In high sec? No, not unless it pays as well as or worse than level fours.

As for gankers, not many solo players would take on that fleet. But besides, you shouldn't be fighting in PvE ships, the game goes out of its way to give you methods to avoid combat, try joining a decent low sec corporation and learn them.


i/we dont care if there is less ISK. we play for fun.
i didnt explicitly say it would be one person.
so i should use an AC/dual or triple rep myrm with web/point and cap boosters (wich would be totaly worth it ISK wise) for level 4 security missions?
sounds reasonable.
there are as much ways to avoid combat as to prevent that.
ability/experience/SP and ISK are the factors in that, all of wich older players exceed.

No, you shouldn't really being PvEing in PvP ships either. Although feel free to if you want to try spider tanking, or buffer fit and use logi.

My point was that you shouldn't be worrying about fighting attackers, just avoid them.


scenario:
we see probes. check local check scan not much going on, we stay)
single frig enters our mission area and warps away.
later 6 players enter local. all of wich are 4 year +. all of wich have idk -4 security status, all of wich are in the same corporation. we check the scan. some reasonable pvp able ships in system.
we leave.
fun!
not?
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