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Crime & Punishment

 
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Empire wars in its current state.

First post
Author
Aesheera
Doomheim
#21 - 2012-06-03 20:54:47 UTC
Private Pineapple wrote:
Aesheera wrote:
Private Pineapple wrote:

Seriously though, if you want real attention on this kind of thing then it should have been posted in General Discussion.

I tend to agree, but having to post in one particular forum to draw attention when it is clearly about crime and punishment makes no sense to me.

CCP lazyness if that's the truth.

In any case, it's good to see many people posting in here in a civil fashion.
IMO it deserves attention and a thorough revamp, because - as i said before - the current state is detrimental and the amount of people enjoying Empire decs is close to non existant, simply due to the fact that this is SO horribly implemented it makes baby jesus cry.


The problem is that all of the rabble and serious trolls are posting in GD all the time so it's hard to get a serious discussion on there without having these things happen: thread derailing, trolls posting on either side of argument, and many more...

The more serious problem is that everyone looks at GD, so all "serious discussions" are expected to pop up in there. I doubt CCP will take most discussions on C&P seriously because you can't make a change based on what a particular subforum wants so it has to be a change that appeals to the masses (aka it has to be discussed on GD where it will get plenty of exposure to many different groups/playstyles).


As much as i agree, you can also agree with me that that's stupid from CCP's side aye?
It's plain lazyness not willing themselves to look at this forum and see some legitimate posts going on.

Anyway - back on topic (thanks for your input though ♥ )

- I think my passion is misinterpreted as anger sometimes. And I don't think people are ready for the message that I'm delivering, and delivering with a sense of violent love.

Private Pineapple
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2012-06-03 20:55:48 UTC
Aesheera wrote:
Private Pineapple wrote:
Aesheera wrote:
Private Pineapple wrote:

Seriously though, if you want real attention on this kind of thing then it should have been posted in General Discussion.

I tend to agree, but having to post in one particular forum to draw attention when it is clearly about crime and punishment makes no sense to me.

CCP lazyness if that's the truth.

In any case, it's good to see many people posting in here in a civil fashion.
IMO it deserves attention and a thorough revamp, because - as i said before - the current state is detrimental and the amount of people enjoying Empire decs is close to non existant, simply due to the fact that this is SO horribly implemented it makes baby jesus cry.


The problem is that all of the rabble and serious trolls are posting in GD all the time so it's hard to get a serious discussion on there without having these things happen: thread derailing, trolls posting on either side of argument, and many more...

The more serious problem is that everyone looks at GD, so all "serious discussions" are expected to pop up in there. I doubt CCP will take most discussions on C&P seriously because you can't make a change based on what a particular subforum wants so it has to be a change that appeals to the masses (aka it has to be discussed on GD where it will get plenty of exposure to many different groups/playstyles).


As much as i agree, you can also agree with me that that's stupid from CCP's side aye?
It's plain lazyness not willing themselves to look at this forum and see some legitimate posts going on.

Anyway - back on topic (thanks for your input though ♥ )


Yes, I agree.

.

Memran
F.U.N. Inc.
The Ancients.
#23 - 2012-06-03 20:57:42 UTC
+1 OP!

I agree with everything said.
How can CCP not know that this would happen? I think they knew all along...
Aesheera
Doomheim
#24 - 2012-06-03 22:07:10 UTC
I dislike that this expansion is forcing most of us to either deal with it and stick to Empire pvpless, or go to null, lowsec or FW to keep the interest in the game going.

Inferno is bad news so far.

- I think my passion is misinterpreted as anger sometimes. And I don't think people are ready for the message that I'm delivering, and delivering with a sense of violent love.

Garven Dreis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#25 - 2012-06-03 22:50:04 UTC
It certainly is p bad.

Terrible Poster Runner-up 2014

MaryJane T
Arctic Experiments
#26 - 2012-06-04 00:48:10 UTC
OP is right on the money, no pun intended.

I also want to point out, that the wannabe mercs make it more difficult for the other allies to hunt. Using 2007 tactics and suchlike. I can offer details if you like. I'm only slightly disrespecting those corps here, as I have heard several admit "we are joining every war we can for the free pew" and "We're mostly a noob training corp, and this looked cool".

Also consider that many mercs are trying to join as allies for a fee "offer to help, for 100mil", and are getting refused, no matter how good their WHist or KB. Reason, there are plenty of other good , and bad, mercs offering to join for free.

So this plus the excellent summary by the OP, means that initiating a dec is petty pointless right now, and expensive in a very unbalanced way.

Look at the Goons vs Star Fraction Dec. Everyone who joined Star Fraction (defender) gets a free dec on goons, which would normally cost >1 bil based on the new size =- cost of dec mechanic. So, deccing someone allows everyone (literally) to dec you back for free.

Can anyone confirm this smells like another bear protection mechanic from CCP?

Anya Klibor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2012-06-04 02:45:07 UTC
DISCLAIMER: Former member of Malum Crusis, so I'll just "ib4" the whole "ur mad we kicked you" posts.

Aesheera wrote:
ArrowThe ally system.

It's stupid to no extent that an aggressor launches a dec and the defender has a LIMITLESS number of allies to recruit.
As most Empire warrers are experiencing right now, it's wars that everyone joins on the defenders side in the hopes of finding targets, resulting in a ridiculous number of people chasing down aggressors.
We're talking 50 man aggressor outfits facing over 10 corps/alliances resulting in a 50 vs 900+ situation.


When I was in MC, both EP and yourself said, in no uncertain terms, "When these changes hit, we're declaring war against all of EVE." You, in particular, were ecstatic about the fact that you would have plenty of people to shoot at. You welcomed the "alliance" system.

With this change, it made it harder for smaller corps to be ganked and killed off by more skilled or aware players. Missioning corporations and alliances now had a way to fight back, even if they weren't fighting.

To see you start off a post with, "Waaaah, the whole ally system is stupid!" borders on the asinine.

Quote:
Question End result:

People obviously wont play. Its going to be Destroyers, Cloakies or Pods you'll see outside, with the odd brainless git trying to mine in a random system.

***


Corporations and alliances are out there getting kills, and they're taking losses. All this did was force people to play a bit smarter. No longer can you simply go one jump out to check for reds. Now, you have to go out a bit more. Now you have to get scouting instead of camping in targets all day. if you are not getting kills, then it's because you're staying on one station undock too long instead of out roaming, like PvP should be.

Quote:
ArrowThe Merc marketplace.

It's pointless. Utterly pointless.
Merc work is destroyed at this point.
Why? Because all a defender has to do is put up a request and viola, everyone out there joins just for the hell of it and in no time, you will see countless corps and alliances joining just to get those few odd kills - if any.

No one will pay anyone anymore because with Inferno in place, players will just join for free.

***


With these changes implemented Empire merc outfits are falling apart, what used to be a very interesting way for PvP is turning into a massive heap of boredom and already there is mention of the older, bigger groups considering moving away from Empire, considering FW, piracy or other means.
There is just no incentive to keep doing this anymore.


Then become an ally to every war you can. I told you before that the concept of "proactive mercenary work" was gone. I told you that the way we would get wars now was to become an ally in as many wars as humanly possible and get a lot of reds. Once again, your response was, "No, we're deccing everyone in EVE." You were only charging for the war dec anyways, according to your post in C&P. So how does becoming an ally ruin what you were doing?

Quote:
In short, even though CCP claimed to redo Empire wars and make them more interesting for everyone, all they;re doing right now is killing it. BIG time.
And the fact that they didn't see this coming is beyond me, and I'm sure many others as well.

It's pushing people out of Empire and in my humble opinion, it reeks of a little hidden agenda they had when designing this because as far as succes with Inferno goes, im pretty sure that's the only achievement they will get for this in the not-all-too-long run from here on.


Your opinion is just that: your opinion. Furthermore, it is based on absolutely nothing substantative. I would argue that high sec wars are as fun now as they have been, if not more-so. The fact any war you declare can see more targets added, and you don't have to pay to shoot those additional targets, makes this concept much more appealing to those wanting legitimate wars. Warfare is not friendly, it is not something you can predict perfectly. Try as you might, there will always be variables you can not predict.

So get the hell out of Niyabainen, and start roaming. It's what I've been doing, and many others like me have. Start going away from the trade hubs and start looking at pipes. Once you find the targets and gather intelligence, you'll get kills. Trust me.

Continued on next post.

Leadership is something you learn. Maybe one day, you'll learn that.

Anya Klibor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2012-06-04 02:47:33 UTC
Quote:
***


IdeaPROPOSED CHANGES BASED ON INGAME AND FORUM INPUT.

- Defenders must charge a fee for allies. This will keep merc work alive and not eradicate it from play entirely.


Okay. "You pay us to be our ally." How many people are going to pay you to shoot at people who dec'd you?

Quote:
- Aggressors should be allowed allies once a Defender gets them. This should also be at a fee. Again, keeping the merc business alive.


Now there's an idea for mercenary work. "Need an ally in a war you declared? Hire us!" That is a very real possibility where mercenaries could head to in order to start working again.

Quote:
- Minimum fees should be introduced for recruiting allies. 50m as bare minimum, outside of the merc's contract prices.
Since they dont have to fund the wars, I'm pretty sure that the 50m will be the cheaper alternative to the old, pre-Inferno costs for Merc alliances.


So I need to pay 50-million ISK per ally? No, that's just silly.

Quote:
These three changes alone will put some use to the Merc marketplace.

Discuss.


So this entire bitchfest wasn't about high-sec war mechanics, but rather about, "Waaaah, we can't be mercs like we think we should be!" That about sum it up perfectly? Yeah it does.

Leadership is something you learn. Maybe one day, you'll learn that.

Aesheera
Doomheim
#29 - 2012-06-04 05:38:17 UTC
MaryJane T wrote:

Can anyone confirm this smells like another bear protection mechanic from CCP?

It does.
There only needs to be an Ally flag next to the dec and viola, in a day or two, the ally list will be more than your corpwindow can handle in a single scroll.

- I think my passion is misinterpreted as anger sometimes. And I don't think people are ready for the message that I'm delivering, and delivering with a sense of violent love.

Aesheera
Doomheim
#30 - 2012-06-04 05:44:48 UTC
Anya Klibor wrote:

When I was in MC, both EP and yourself said, in no uncertain terms, "When these changes hit, we're declaring war against all of EVE." You, in particular, were ecstatic about the fact that you would have plenty of people to shoot at. You welcomed the "alliance" system.

Which is exactly what we did, and not just us - everyone did.

And that is the problem of this entire expansion.

- I think my passion is misinterpreted as anger sometimes. And I don't think people are ready for the message that I'm delivering, and delivering with a sense of violent love.

Anya Klibor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2012-06-04 06:06:09 UTC
Aesheera wrote:
Anya Klibor wrote:

When I was in MC, both EP and yourself said, in no uncertain terms, "When these changes hit, we're declaring war against all of EVE." You, in particular, were ecstatic about the fact that you would have plenty of people to shoot at. You welcomed the "alliance" system.

Which is exactly what we did, and not just us - everyone did.

And that is the problem of this entire expansion.


And how is that the problem of the entire expansion? They removed the limit on wars that a single corporation could have. Sure, everyone could dec everyone else, and we could (theoretically) turn high sec into null sec (minus the few odd people who decide to remain permanently in NPC corporations).

That is not a problem with the expansion. This expansion made wars a bit more fun, in my honest opinion. Since joining a corporation looking to fight, I have found plenty of targets to fight. Not missioners for free and easy kills, but people looking to legitimately undock and slug it out.

I figure many people looking to fight are getting it. Many people looking for free ganks aren't.

Leadership is something you learn. Maybe one day, you'll learn that.

Aesheera
Doomheim
#32 - 2012-06-04 07:18:01 UTC
Anya Klibor wrote:
This expansion made wars a bit more fun, in my honest opinion. Since joining a corporation looking to fight, I have found plenty of targets to fight. Not missioners for free and easy kills, but people looking to legitimately undock and slug it out.

I figure many people looking to fight are getting it. Many people looking for free ganks aren't.

You are, as you replied to me, stating your opinion.
The simple fact that, after discussing this with the bigger, older (and substantially larger) merc alliances out there the majority feels that Inferno is crippling Empire wars.

Sure, some entities will dec and welcome the 10 allies that will jump in on the defenders side, but the truth is, too many aren't.
For those looking for fights and deciding to jump on the defenders side: there is so many others you're competing with to even get a fight it's highly unlikely that fights will be found - unless like you say, you gank people from trade hub undocks.

It's out of balance and not slightly.

There is talk in those groups mentioned above (without naming) joining FW and similar things, simply because this current system isn't working out for them - and us included.

Inferno needs to be looked at, revamped and patched.
There is quite some concerning talk going on left and right.

So assuming this thread was made just from my POV - nope.
This thread was made AFTER talking this through and recieving what is similar input from multiple fronts.

- I think my passion is misinterpreted as anger sometimes. And I don't think people are ready for the message that I'm delivering, and delivering with a sense of violent love.

Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#33 - 2012-06-04 08:15:18 UTC
Looking from the outside in (as im in w-space). it seems that a lot of people are just mad because the easy kills aren't so easy anymore.

No trolling please

Dorn Val
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#34 - 2012-06-04 08:30:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Dorn Val
Bane Nucleus wrote:
Looking from the outside in (as im in w-space). it seems that a lot of people are just mad because the easy kills aren't so easy anymore.


I agree, and I'm also a W space dweller.

You can have null sec PVP (where there is no change to your sec status for shooting someone) and still get into a lot of small scale fights -we do it almost every day in W space. Your argument that you have to PVP in empire cause null is blob warfare is invalid. Hell you can even gank miners in W space, but it's a lot riskier though cause you never know who's in system with you (no one shows up in local unless they are dumb enough to chat in it).

The way I thought about empire PVP before Inferno was bullies (high sec griefers) beating up crippled kids (high sec carebears) who were getting help, although it was mostly lame, from friends (mercenaries). Now I see bullies getting mad cause the crippled kids can call in backup, and the friends that use to help them aren't cause their lame help is public knowledge and traceable now. Inferno just exposes how utterly weak empire PVP really is...

Sandbox: An enclosed area filled with sand for children engaged in open-ended, unstructured, imaginative play. Also a place for cats to urinate and defecate...

Aesheera
Doomheim
#35 - 2012-06-04 09:22:57 UTC
Dorn Val wrote:

Your argument that you have to PVP in empire cause null is blob warfare is invalid.

That's not what i said.
I said that each has his own preference.
Some enjoy wormholes - like you, others piracy, then others null NPC- or sov space (where there are alot of large scale fights) and those that prefer Empire.

And as for your argument about empire: this thread concerns all Empire warrers.
Griefers, Mercs and any other group that wants to fight there.

And if you think Empire wars are weak, that's fine - again, to each his own.
That doesn't take away the fact that in it's current state, Empire wars, it's mercs, it's griefers - everyone is taking a large and unnecessary hit which will eventually lead to highsec becoming the ultimate safety zone for carebears.

Not many will like to stick around for what used to be a very nice Guerilla warfare playground.

- I think my passion is misinterpreted as anger sometimes. And I don't think people are ready for the message that I'm delivering, and delivering with a sense of violent love.

Sarah xCalibre
Pod Liberation Authority
#36 - 2012-06-04 09:29:55 UTC
Aesheera wrote:
Dorn Val wrote:

Your argument that you have to PVP in empire cause null is blob warfare is invalid.

That's not what i said.
I said that each has his own preference.
Some enjoy wormholes - like you, others piracy, then others null NPC- or sov space (where there are alot of large scale fights) and those that prefer Empire.

And as for your argument about empire: this thread concerns all Empire warrers.
Griefers, Mercs and any other group that wants to fight there.

And if you think Empire wars are weak, that's fine - again, to each his own.
That doesn't take away the fact that in it's current state, Empire wars, it's mercs, it's griefers - everyone is taking a large and unnecessary hit which will eventually lead to highsec becoming the ultimate safety zone for carebears.

Not many will like to stick around for what used to be a very nice Guerilla warfare playground.




All your opinions goes around the people that WANTS to fight there, how about the people that doesnt want to fight there? I love that the people who doesnt want to fight (now its weird I know but there are some that enjoys eve for the pve) now actually can fight back at no cost. If you WANT to fight in HISEC you will find a way. How about you go fight people who wants to fight then. You just sound like a crying baby atm that had its candy stolen.
  • Sarah xCalibre
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2012-06-04 09:45:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
Aesheera wrote:
Discuss.

on the one hand you say that starting wars is more risky than ever
on the other hand you claim that the whole mercenary game is dead.

who in their right mind would not outsource offensive wars to mercenaries given the incalculable risks that you outline in your post?

sure, mercenaries have a much harder time finding well paying defensive contracts - but at the same time there is a much stronger incentive to hire professionals for any kind of aggression.

(edit: now, from my point of view most "mercenaries" are anything but professionals and would probably fail just as hard as your average pvp player when outnumbered but that's a different topic entirely)

.

Tora Bushido
The Marmite Mercenaries
BLACKFLAG.
#38 - 2012-06-04 10:14:00 UTC
Bane Nucleus wrote:
Looking from the outside in (as im in w-space). it seems that a lot of people are just mad because the easy kills aren't so easy anymore.


Don't think this is the case. Most serious merc don't like those easy kills, they enjoy a hard fight.... and then win Twisted And having defenders get allies is a good thing. It makes the decs more even and fun. BUT if you allow to many allies, you get an unbalanced war dec again.

Short version : allies YEHHH !!! , 9840384893493 allies NEHHHH ! Blink

DELETE THE WEAK, ADAPT OR DIE !

Meta Gaming Level VII, Psycho Warfare Level X, Smack Talk Level VII.

Aesheera
Doomheim
#39 - 2012-06-04 10:27:08 UTC
Tora Bushido wrote:
Bane Nucleus wrote:
Looking from the outside in (as im in w-space). it seems that a lot of people are just mad because the easy kills aren't so easy anymore.


Don't think this is the case. Most serious merc don't like those easy kills, they enjoy a hard fight.... and then win Twisted And having defenders get allies is a good thing. It makes the decs more even and fun. BUT if you allow to many allies, you get an unbalanced war dec again.

Short version : allies YEHHH !!! , 9840384893493 allies NEHHHH ! Blink

Pretty much what I'm saying.

- I think my passion is misinterpreted as anger sometimes. And I don't think people are ready for the message that I'm delivering, and delivering with a sense of violent love.

Aesheera
Doomheim
#40 - 2012-06-04 10:30:27 UTC
Vera Algaert wrote:
Aesheera wrote:
Discuss.

sure, mercenaries have a much harder time finding well paying defensive contracts - but at the same time there is a much stronger incentive to hire professionals for any kind of aggression.

Thing is, NO ONE is hiring and why should they.
You want ISK to help us? Sorry, plenty of others out there doing it for free.

There is no need for dedicated mercs, its the ally bandwagon that anyone can jump on to that effectively kills payed defense.

- I think my passion is misinterpreted as anger sometimes. And I don't think people are ready for the message that I'm delivering, and delivering with a sense of violent love.