Player Features and Ideas Discussion

First, let me say hello to all Eve players all arround the world! Nice to meet you!

I know i'm new in here, and probably i'm not a good Eve player, but... i am speaking probably in the name of most of the "noobs" that just started to play Eve. They want to enjoy the game, but they really can't!

At start, i was amased of Eve (i also tried playing it about 7-8 years ago). I found it fascinating. The Universe, the ships, the posibilities. I loved the complexity of the game. For 2 or 3 weeks (in my trial), i said "This is it! This is the game i always wanted!".

And then... the skills training hit me. I've learned the basics, but then i found EVEMon... i've started reading the guides, asking my elder Corp members. Everyone was complaining about the skills learning time. I know CCP developers must get players to stay for as long as possible in Eve, but i think it's wrong to keep them for so long mostly because they can't escape the "learning trap".

I also realise there must be something to diferentiate the newcomers from veterans... but the gap is simply too big. For example, i was adding in EVEMon the most important things i wanted to learn... and i got an estimate of 1176 DAYS!!! I bought some +4 Implants Set and i went to arround 987 DAYS of learning skills! And this is just for the "basics". I didn't even dare to select other factions ships.

Now, i don't say i am scared about having to pay and play Eve for 3 years... But from the viewpoint of a new player in Eve, i'm actually thinking CCP is asking too much from me! Too much money and time to get to a level where i could actually enjoy the best of Eve.

I am sure some of you will link me videos and guides where noobs are able to kill/gank elder Eve players by specialising in just 2 or 3 areas of the game and flying some suicidal frigate or something too fast to kill... but for me, that's not the Eve beauty. For me that's some kind of "arcade" game...

I've considered about getting +5 implants... I even bought them, and then i realised i'll have to wait for 12 more days to learn (without taking into account that i could be pod killed at any moment). And then made some estimations for +5 implants. It's still a killer for me. And it's not just me. Everyone i know that quit Eve, they did it because of the skill training time. Most of them explained me there were months when they only logged in Eve just to add more skills in training queue... and not playing at all.

I don't want to become one of them. That's why i'm writing in here, in HOPE that maybe CCP developers will find a way to improve the learning experience... or at least give a helping hand to newcomers.

One ideea would be: an extra boost in skills learning for all players that are new (3 or 6 months old).
Another ideea would be: a +6 or +7 implants set that can only be used for a short period of time by new players (under one year).
Or maybe just add a +6 +7 +8 implants set for everyone... although they would probably be so expensive that only veterans will afford them.

I don't know... maybe you have better ideeas. But as i said, a newcomer to Eve will just stop and think about continuing to play... once him (or her) discovers there are years ahead just for learning basics stuff. I would sincerly prefere a very active 6 months old Eve player who enjoys the game, than a 3 years old Eve player that only logs in 3-4 times a month just to add more skills in queue.

In the end, i would like to excuse my bad english and wish you all the best in Eve. I hope CCP will find a way for the Eve newcomers... Fly safe! And thanks for reading this and posting your ideeas/impressions!

I like the idea in general, however I feel like +5 may be a bit high, maybe a temp +2 or +3 set (and by temp I mean 1 to 2 weeks max)

and I believe it should only be for those who purchase a subscription


where I feel like this will fail:

CCP was VERY VERY smart about how they designed their leveling system, I do and don't like it, mainly I do cause I don't have to physically grind all day to level a skill, however that 1000 days of you having to train in real time?

1000 days

1 year 1 time payment for eve is 131 total

131 usd per 365 days

1176/365 = 3.23 (rounded)

131 * 3.23 = 423.13 just to get all those skills.

now a full set of plus 4's got you down to 987

987/365 = 2.71 (rounded)

131* 2.71 = 355 now to get all those skills (and this is assuming your queue is NEVER empty as well)

my point above is the long version of

Time is how eve makes money, giving out free implants would cost eve money, now I agree its a great idea, I hate how slow things are in the beginning, but I'm pretty sure if CCP could have their way they wouldn't tell you about implants in the first place.



Just my 2 cents, sorry for playing devils advocate here, It's a good Idea though

Hi, Crisstine!

I agree, the learning experience could be improved. It used to be worse -- you used to have to trade off training "learning skills'" that would speed up your learning,vs actually learning useful skills. They got rid of that a while back.

I like Seph's idea. I think part of what's frustrating about learning skills is that it is so passive. If someone is online only a couple hours a month -- at the end of a year, they can get into a ship, with proper skills, and still have no idea how to fly it.

On the other hand, if you actually really work hard, really learn things -- the learning clock still ticks the same.

This in effect penalizes dedicated pilots, and it also is demotivating -- there's no value in hard work in progressing toward more ships you can fly or goods you can manufacture. There's no reward for your dedication and effort.

A related issue is the cost of skillbooks. For a pilot who focuses on doing things rather than getting rich, skillbooks can be a real cost limitation. It was true for me when I was a new pilot, and it is true for me today. The set of ships I can *almost* fly, if only I could afford the skillbooks, is annoying.

But I think the problems with the learning experience are most important for newer pilots. Those of us who have been here a while, are unlikely to be deterred from continuing by the cost of skillbooks. True, we might be even more engaged if we could flyy more stuff.

But i think the real benefit of Seph's idea is that it would lead to people being more engaged. It would also make the learning experience more interesting and active. Training up an alt would no longer be a passive thing; you could make the choice to spend more time flying frigates and destroyers and frigates again, helping your new pilot through the ranks.

So... if I put my alt in ubertanky BS and keep shooting him with gunz, missiles, drones and additionally apply neuts, scram, web and td while orbiting at 500m I will gain SP in gunnery, missiles, drones, ewar and navigation skills? And maybe my alt would gain SP in shield and mechanic related skills?

Nice. Why nobody thought of that ever before?

I would like to again repeat the inquiry: What in the world did you queue up that takes 3 years? Did you just add *every* skill to EVEmon? >.>

The basics do *not* take years and you don't hit 20+ day skills right out of the gate unless you're trying to nosedive right into Tech II Cruisers or something. A path that will only end in expensive, horrific failure.

While the new player experience desperately needs work, the game doesn't need more training related implants. So scratch that option out. The ones we already have are bad enough with the risk aversion they pose on new players.

Ah! That's why. You really don't need most of that. I agree with Velicitia-- most things can be trained to IV (or even III) and you get most of the utility out of them.

Don't pay too much attention to EVEMon. Also don't pay attention to players who say that "you really have to train any skill you care about to V". That's easy to say for somebody who's been in the game for 8 years and has already done it. It's not easy for somebody starting and looking at multiple years to do that...!

Generally, the time it takes to train a skill increases exponentially, but the benefits only increase linearly. Thus, the cost/benefit ratio of training a skill from II to III is MUCH better than it is training the skill from IV to V. It *is* true that any skill worth training at all is worth training to III, because the additional time investment really isn't that much. (And, perhaps, to IV, although once it's more than a day to train, I'd be strategic and ask if the bonus is really worth it.)

Yes, often you need to train some things to V as a prerequisite for other things. But be strategic about that. The truth is, yes, you *can* do a lot of interesting things in T1 ships. For T2 ships, pick what you're interested in most, and target just that first. For me, that was Exhumers, and even then I mined for a long time in a Retriever before I finally bit the bullet and trained the various prereq skills for Exhumers to V.

-Derglas

hey :) well I just accepted that it will take a bit to learn things so in the meanwhile I play and learn from older members. I understand you, no doubt about that but as I said before, I have just accepted that its just the way it is :)) I mine with my corp-mates, I read about different things in EVE on how to interact with pvp, planetary interaction. I cant of couse remember everything but I get an idea about how EVE works and when I started to play EVE some EVE-mates told me that the game was a life styles hehe.

I just enjoy playing EVE, the way it is so I dont have any suggestion to you :) EVE WILL take a looong time to learn different things. EVE had try to put real times into the game on the way you have to learn before you can play it :)) I hope you still will play EVE mate inspite of the loooong time it takes to learn different skills ))) see you ingame

I think one thing that would help enormously, is if some effort was put into making it more clear what skills are available to you, what paths, what you can learn and do....

The certificate system really doesn't make this clear.

Everything looks backwards -- you look at a ship, it tells you want skills you need. Then you try to figure out what modules would be good -- and you have to see if they fit on that ship, with your skills, and even what skills you need for that.

It would be extremely helpful to be able to look at these dependencies from the other direction!

"If I train shields to V, what skills does that enable, what ships and modules does that enable?"

You'd even like to be able to ask, "which of these potential fits will it enable"?, if you have collected potential fits for ships you have or want to fly. "Can I fit this awesome L4 mission drake fitting? What about that gang PvP fit I saw yesterday".

Tools like EFT and EveMON help you work out the answers, but you have to really work at it.

Just as there's absolutely no reason why every item's info doesn't have a link to its print, there's no reason every skill doesn't come with a list of what skills, ships, modules it enables, and what modules it will affect the fit or operation of.

[[Silly forum software just *discarded* my message when I pushed post. Having it save an earlier draft is NOT a fix for such foolishness! But a whole lot better than no draft!]]

(Stay tuned, the forum software ate my actual reply)

OK, that was weird. I'll have to recreate it from memory this time.

The problem with the Cerebral Implant is that it was a one-time gift item that's now scarce -- running 200+ million on contract.

It's not on the market -- so it's not even a discoverable item.

I'd like to highlight your last point.

The OP is in a solid corporation, in a solid alliance (we're in the same alliance). A lot of the good advice she's been given have been from members of her alliance, and her own corporation.

As a young pilot, wandering around space like the n00b I was, it took me a while to figure out why I would want to join a corporation, or what I would possibly look for.

Now, years later, as a director of the same corporation that nurtured me then (I guess I did good finding the right corp!) I look at it from the other side.

EVE University, and many other pilots, do the community a tremendous public service by making all manner of training material available. The challenge is often sorting through what's available, or knowing what to look for, what to ask for.

Still, a lot of it boils down to making visible information that the game mechanics make unnecessarily obscure. This isn't a feature -- there's still a tremendous amount of knowledge we need to impart to new pilots, and skills that need to be actually practiced.

Providing that knowledge, and opportunities for practice, is an area where as a corporation we need continuous improvement,. Even more, it is an area where there is tremendous opportunity for cooperation within our alliance. There have already been great learning opportunities between her corporation and mine, and I expect many others in the future.

Some sides of her concern, I take as a challenge to us, corporate and alliance leadership.

But other aspects, I think are a challenge properly laid at CCP's feet. It doesn't have to be this hard; it doesn't have to be this opaque, it doesn't have to be this unrewarding.

If skill training were more interactive -- if there were opportunities to build skills through actually using them, this would be an opportunity for pilots to engage more with corporate and alliance training exercises. It would be an opportunity for leadership to provide those opportunities, and to engage their pilots more deeply with their corporations and alliances.

I think it all serves to illustrate the importance of the social aspect of EVE, just as you point out. It is, I believe, why I am still here, still flying, years later.