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When does all the ganking make mining worth it?

Author
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#81 - 2012-06-01 08:10:10 UTC
R3aliti wrote:
This new forum system DOES NOT WORK for me. I spent an hour writing a logical response to a subject and when I try to post it tells me I have 27 drafts of my post do I wish to to replace my current with the last draft - I say no - and end up with a blank post

I guess my thoughts are to never be posted and lost in endless drafts - Thanks for the new system.


You got suicide ganked by the forum.

I suggest you fit this tank:

1) Prototype Notepad I
2) 'Spam em beotch' Post Text
3) Improved 'Paste da stuff'
4) 'Persistent Window Notepad Text' Save button.

All tier 1 or named stuff so it's cheap, and works Blink
Sidus Isaacs
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2012-06-01 10:14:50 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
Anyway, the point of the thread is not to complain about goons, it's a serious question about when the profit of mining will rise to a level that even people who currently hate mining will be tempted to train mining barge skills and get in on the easy money.


For myself, never. Mining is boring as hell, I would much sooner spend time playing another game.

My time is finite, and I got better things to spend it on then mining.
Kreeia Dgore
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#83 - 2012-06-01 10:46:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Kreeia Dgore
Tenchi Sal wrote:

im pretty sure most miners are quitting not over pvp but how ****** the community of EVE is becomming. look at all the rage/hate towards them, they are blamed for every last thing thats bad in EVE online. i been playing mmos since 1999, dont ever remember seeing a group of players so blatantly "hated on" more then EVE miners.

This.
I've been playing games for almost two decades now and have never seen ANY player group being so much targeted by inconsiderate douchebags compensating their desperate real life situation by "making" the miners think their way of playing the game is the only proper one, commonly backed by some funny logic like "everyone knows that".

CCP knows that, but for some reason they don't care. I don't know why though. It may have something to do with CCP ignoring mining in general, because it isn't simply worth mining when you can make much more isk AND minerals by running missions.
Wild guess: Some person higher up in the food chain of CCP doesn't want EVE to be anything but PvP and feels somehow bad by removing mining because many things in EVE woudln't make sence without it.

Don't get me wrong, I love explosions. But the level of ignorance performed by CCP on this topic is stunning when compared with the joyfull eagerness to improve the game in general. Something just doesn't fit in here.
Rhatar Khurin
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#84 - 2012-06-01 11:29:38 UTC
Ah another "Play the game the way i want or you're a loser!" thread

Thankfully i came prepared with some beer.
Star Runner
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#85 - 2012-06-01 11:34:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Star Runner
As a veteran miner, I think an ongoing hulkageddon is really stupid. I can see the value of having it occasionally, but not everyone has the luxury of time to be able to play in low and null sec. I would love to be down in null sec now that things seem to be setting down somewhat, but I don't have enough play time to justify having to run to a pos every time a neut enters the system down in null, and I don't see why I should have to play like I'm in null sec when I'm not. I agree that high sec shouldn't be 100% secure, but really, this suicide ganking is getting stupid. I really don't care what the stated reasons are at this point; it's just dumb. I would love to have the time needed to do all the things people suggest to protect myself; the reality is, if all I'm going to be doing is 2 or 3 hours a night a couple times a week, there's no value to it and I'm wasting my time. If their intention is to basically force miners to play EVE their way or not at all, they've succeeded. Whether that's a good thing for the game is another matter entirely. I respect what the GOONS are trying to do, but not everyone wants to play the game their way, and I really, really hope someone in null sec can figure out how to match them because right now I really don't have a reason to log in. Mining in high sec was the only thing I could do while my real life schedule is in flux, and with that gone, I may as well not bother with the game. I suspect many of the high sec miners will end up feeling the same, and it will hurt the game in the long run if CCP continues to allow this to happen with no counter measures whatsoever.
NJDruid
Dead Roid Society
#86 - 2012-06-01 12:33:11 UTC
Being a player of a computer game I find it all rather funny personaly . Some of you need to get a serious life tbh you are spending too much time in front of your pc screens.
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
#87 - 2012-06-01 13:58:50 UTC
You have to mine if you want to build stuff. Buying mins is for pussies :)

I'm kidding about that, but to me, there's really no point in playing MMO's unless you are trying to roleplay something...I understand that this is a personal idea I adhere to.

So for me, EvE is about one account, and ground up industry play. I mine my own mins and ice, do my own blueprint reasearch, get my own datacores, conduct my own PI, and so on. I only buy what I can't make reasonably myself.

So, while I do enjoy mining as a relaxing alternative to other playstyles, I view it as necessary.

So to answer the OP...no amount of ganking is enough. If I can't persevere through crap like that to do what I've developed as a playstyle in EvE, I may as well not play.
Tarn Kugisa
Kugisa Dynamics
#88 - 2012-06-01 14:14:43 UTC
Only time mining is ever profitable is in Null/WH space
other than that you're wasting your time. (Unless of course you can field a fleet that strips belts in a matter of minutes, then it doesn't really matter)

Be polite. Be efficient. Have a plan to troll everyone you meet - KuroVolt

bongsmoke
Visine Red
#89 - 2012-06-01 14:19:37 UTC
Andoria Thara wrote:
Merin Ryskin wrote:
Tenchi Sal wrote:
im pretty sure most miners are quitting not over pvp but how ****** the community of EVE is becomming. look at all the rage/hate towards them, they are blamed for every last thing thats bad in EVE online. i been playing mmos since 1999, dont ever remember seeing a group of players so blatantly "hated on" more then EVE miners.


You know why they're blamed? Because highsec miners, just like other highsec carebears, are bad for the game.

Highsec is supposed to be the tutorial area, with the least risk but also the lowest rewards. There should be absolutely zero profit for veteran players in highsec. If you have the skills to fly a Hulk, you should be forced to move to lowsec or 0.0 to get any money. You should NOT be given a nice gank-free AFK income source like highsec miners demand.

Hulkageddon should be impossible for the simple reason that there are no Hulks in highsec, and therefore nothing to suicide gank besides a handful of tutorial players mining in their frigates.


That's about the biggest load of BS I've read all night. All I read was a bunch of "play the sandbox my way or you are wrong"


Nice avatar!

It is a sandbox, play the way you want, don't let the forums change you, better yet, you should change the forums.

Did I say nice avatar?
Emma Royd
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Reckless Contingency.
#90 - 2012-06-01 15:36:33 UTC
TLDR
I started as a miner, many many moons ago, in the days were mining was a half reasonable profession in eve, but then eventually the macros / botters moved in to the mining, and therefore, everyone who multiboxed mined must be a bot, therefore scum and should be shot, preferably in rl as well as in game.

It used to be the way before the mineral markets went all screwy, that mining in high-sec paid far less than in low sec (I remember mining in low when jaspet and kernite were a good thing), and nullsec was the ultimate mining. It isn't the miners fault that the mineral market might have changed that.

To the ones saying that hulks shouldn't be in empire, if CCP didn't originally want the hulks in empire they could have put limits on the ship, but hulks used to be 500m+ and that's in the days were that was a hell of a lot of isk.

Mining is lost as a profession, I'm not saying it should pay any more or any less, but it should be acknowledged as a necessity, minerals are needed to build stuff.

As for risk/reward, is it any different than running L4 missions? , oh wait, they shouldn't be in empire, or incursions (which pay far more isk than mining)?

Cyprus Amaro
Tortuga Coalition 102
#91 - 2012-06-01 15:47:04 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
Cyprus Amaro wrote:
Would you explain the logic train that led you to this conclusion? How are hi-sec miners "worthless parasites" to EVE? I'm relatively new, but I thought that mining has always been an integral part of EVE since its inception.


Highsec miners (and other highsec carebears) are worthless parasites because they wreck the risk/reward balance by making veteran-level income in what is supposed to be the tutorial area, and then whining and crying and demanding nerfs every time someone threatens their ability to carebear AFK with 100% safety.


The above sounds like you are jealous of the income a miner can make. I have a trading alt that makes much more than my miner and is my youngest toon. Pure trade alt with Tycoon level skills. I suppose you would suggest that that toon shouldn't exist either?


Quote:
Miners in general are a useful part of EVE, but they are supposed to be mining in lowsec/0.0. Unfortunately the easy money of highsec, combined with mining bots, drives mineral prices down and kills the appeal of mining outside highsec for the few people who might otherwise make good money there.

End result: lazy and stupid people get rich at the expense of the overall health of the game. I think that's a pretty good definition of "worthless parasite".


You used the word "supposed" a number of times in your posts. Hi-sec is "supposed" to be a tutorial area? I don't recall seeing this rule put out anywhere by CCP, or is this the "EVE according to Merin" version? Again you seem to be jealous of the income that miners make, yet I always see the self-described PvP pros claim that hi-sec mining is the least profitable activity in EVE. Also, how is some guy mining Veld in hi-sec getting rich and how does that effect the overall health of the game? It certainly can't be a concern about concentration of resources or you would be railing against high-value, afk Moon mining.

In the interest of full disclosure: I have a mining toon that mines a lot in hi-sec. That toon has never been ganked however. I've been both careful and lucky. My trade alt was ganked in an Indy in the Jita system. Huge ISK loss, but I could have avoided it by warping to 0 instead of warping to jump at the gate. Yeah, I learned. My miner has lost mining ships in worm-space, but that isn't suicide ganking.
Cyprus Amaro
Tortuga Coalition 102
#92 - 2012-06-01 15:51:26 UTC
James 315 wrote:
Aramatheia wrote:
i participate in a ship building operation, hence i mine. Should there be less ships entering the game? whats people going to fly if thier ships blow up and theres no ship builders replacing the losses?

Mining and ship production can be handled by those in nullsec or even lowsec. Highsec miners have absolutely nothing to offer. If fewer ships entered the game as a result of carebears' destruction, who cares? I sure don't.


I've read some of your posts (not all of course as they are way too numerous, too long, and full of self-importance tripe) and it is clear that you care very deeply about carebear destruction.
Cyprus Amaro
Tortuga Coalition 102
#93 - 2012-06-01 15:58:23 UTC
Doctor Benway Kado wrote:
Andoria Thara wrote:
Doctor Benway Kado wrote:

This is why we hate you, by the way.


Why's that? Because I countered someone saying remove all mining from highsec with remove all markets from highsec?

Because you make "only" 20 million an hour, AFK mining, in the most secure and least risky part of space - and then still complain.

And don't claim that mining in highsec isn't safe. It isn't safe because we hate you.


You need some professional help to deal with your personality disorder. Your pathology has extended now to RL. This forum is not the game of EVE. These are real people you are having a discussion with, yet you claim to hate them.

Get some help. Seriously.
Cyprus Amaro
Tortuga Coalition 102
#94 - 2012-06-01 16:00:21 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
[quote=Andoria Thara]And I don't really care about the exact ISK/hour, what matters is that a Hulk, the top-end mining ship, can actually be useful in highsec. Hulkageddon is only possible because Hulks are somewhere that they don't belong.


More "EVE according to Merin" rules? Where is it written that Hulks don't belong in Hisec? I must have missed that somewhere....
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#95 - 2012-06-01 16:07:48 UTC
YipKai Foon wrote:
Merin Ryskin wrote:
Cyprus Amaro wrote:
Would you explain the logic train that led you to this conclusion? How are hi-sec miners "worthless parasites" to EVE? I'm relatively new, but I thought that mining has always been an integral part of EVE since its inception.


Miners in general are a useful part of EVE, but they are supposed to be mining in lowsec/0.0. Unfortunately the easy money of highsec, combined with mining bots, drives mineral prices down and kills the appeal of mining outside highsec for the few people who might otherwise make good money there.


Where exactly is this rule defined...?
Seems like someone doesn't understand how to make a profit from this game and even worse, doesn't understand the term "sandbox"... Blink


There was a time when minerals were sold by NPCs. Back then minerals had a fixed price starting with Tritanium at 1 isk per unit and going up in price to Morphite. Back then income from mining was low but acceptable in high-sec, medium very risky in low-sec and high but risky aswell in 0.0.

This balance has been f*ed up over various patches. The only good thing was that the mineral market is no longer dependend on NPC pricing. Huzzah for free markets Cool

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.

Cyprus Amaro
Tortuga Coalition 102
#96 - 2012-06-01 16:18:44 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
It's not just that they're playing it "the wrong way", the problem is that they're:

1) Getting too much reward for the minimal risks in highsec.

and

2) Demanding changes which would be make the situation even worse every time there's a threat to their ability to have 100% safe AFK income.

As long as these two statements are true, highsec carebears deserve to be ganked over and over again until they quit the game. And they will not be missed.



I'm not trying to pick on you, but you are putting your ideas out there. I have a hard time believing that those really are the two problems which have prompted the rise in suicide ganking.

Probem 1. Too much reward for minimal risk.

If this really was the issue that was the problem then why haven't the Goons been lobbying for a change in the resource allocation in the hi-sec belts? Tweaking the amount of and type of roids in hi-sec would be a much more effective way to "redistribute" the wealth than blowing up Hulks in hi-sec. Hulkageddon accomplishes few things, but one of them is make my miner's minerals MORE valuable not less. I've made more ISK since Hulkageddon started from mining. Of course the other thing it accomplishes is make the cost of Hulks rise (by about 75mil over the past 3 weeks). We all know who really benefits from that.

Problem 2. Demanding changes which would be make the situation (Problem 1) even worse

I've only seen a couple of suggestions (complaints) to make mining in hi-sec 100% safe. I've seen plenty of suggestions to deal with what some of us see an imbalance in the risk/reward of suicide ganking. Just as you claim there isn't enough risk to mining in hi-sec, we suggest that the costs of suicide ganking is too low. Game mechanics were put in place to discourage ganking in hi-sec. Players have found a way to exploit those mechanics for their own profit. Some of us feel that that exploit needs to be addressed.

All I'm saying is that arguing Problem 1 is disingenuous at best. There are other, far more effective, ways to change hi-sec mining risk/reward than shooting at hulks.




Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#97 - 2012-06-01 16:18:53 UTC
Cyprus Amaro wrote:
Merin Ryskin wrote:
[quote=Andoria Thara]And I don't really care about the exact ISK/hour, what matters is that a Hulk, the top-end mining ship, can actually be useful in highsec. Hulkageddon is only possible because Hulks are somewhere that they don't belong.


More "EVE according to Merin" rules? Where is it written that Hulks don't belong in Hisec? I must have missed that somewhere....


It is a somewhat logical conclusion: I can't fully use a stealth bomber or an interdictor even in low-sec.

BUT ! The problem is not the ship. It's the kind of income that you can generate in High-sec ...

ACTUALLY even that is not the problem. The problem is imho that low-sec is not interesting enough for miners or PIes ...

I LOVE HIGH-SEC, really I do ... it's a great place to hang out. But it encourages too many people to just stay there forever, amass isk and turn eve into a "who's got the largest wallet" competition.

Eve is about war, and personally I would love the RPG part be a bit more important then it is (how about all out FW with the pirate factions included ?). War creates a need for more ships to be built, war makes mining a vital necessity rather then a wallet bragging side effect.

Also: please CCP make WIS low-sec only TwistedTwistedTwisted

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.

highonpop
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#98 - 2012-06-01 16:26:47 UTC
You mine minerals
You build mining barge
You sell mining barge
Someone buys your mining barges
You make profit
Someone ganks said mining barge
Player returns to buy another mining barge
You make profit
Someone ganks said mining barge
Player returns to buy another mining barge
You make profit
Someone ganks said mining barge
Player returns to buy another mining barge
You make profit
Someone ganks said mining barge
Player returns to buy another mining barge
You make profit
Someone ganks said mining barge
Player returns to buy another mining barge
You make profit
Someone ganks said mining barge
Player returns to buy another mining barge
You make profit
Someone ganks said mining barge
Player returns to buy another mining barge
You make profit
Someone ganks said mining barge
Player returns to buy another mining barge
You make profit
Someone ganks said mining barge
Player returns to buy another mining barge
You make profit

get it?

FC, what do?

Ituhata Saken
Killboard Padding Services
#99 - 2012-06-01 16:57:23 UTC
At some point I would think the player would buy a different ship, this make and model keeps exploding. Lol

So close...

Maledictum Aideron
In Praise of Bacchus
#100 - 2012-06-01 16:59:17 UTC
Ituhata Saken wrote:
At some point I would think the player would buy a different ship, this make and model keeps exploding. Lol


Shhh, don't spoil it.