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When does all the ganking make mining worth it?
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Stan Smith
State War Academy
Caldari State
#61 - 2012-06-01 03:51:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Stan Smith
Quote:
Demanding changes which would be make the situation even worse every time there's a threat to their ability to have 100% safe AFK income.


*cough* tech moons *cough*

anyway, firstly: not everyone who mines in highsec is afk or a bot ok? secondly, most of the people who want to change suicide ganking dont want to remove it completely, just make it harder to gank and add more risk to the gankers. so that a trial account cant destroy a mining ship thats designed for deep space where the bigger threats are (ignore the npc rats in nullsec, they really aren't much of a challenge) the defensive capabilities of a hulk are nowhere near where they should be for a ship of its intended role

☻/ /▌ / \ This is Bob, post him into your forum sig and help him conquer the forums.
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#62 - 2012-06-01 03:55:51 UTC
Stan Smith wrote:
Quote:
Demanding changes which would be make the situation even worse every time there's a threat to their ability to have 100% safe AFK income.


*cough* tech moons *cough*

anyway, firstly: not everyone who mines in highsec is afk or a bot ok? secondly, most of the people who want to change suicide ganking dont want to remove it completely, just make it harder to gank and add more risk to the gankers. so that a trial account cant destroy a mining ship thats designed for deep space where the bigger threats are (ignore the npc rats in nullsec, they really aren't much of a challenge) the defensive capabilities of a hulk are nowhere near where they should be for a ship of its intended role


We have squabbles over those tech moons all the time. Most of our fleet losses in the last three months have been hovering over a tech moon fighting for it. So I wouldn't call it "Risk free" isk generation. Unless you have no idea of what the word "Risk" means.

I give NCDot another two or three weeks before their leadership spergs the hell out and decides to go after our tech again, at which point there will be more fights hovering over tech moons.
Stan Smith
State War Academy
Caldari State
#63 - 2012-06-01 04:50:53 UTC
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Stan Smith wrote:
Quote:
Demanding changes which would be make the situation even worse every time there's a threat to their ability to have 100% safe AFK income.


*cough* tech moons *cough*

anyway, firstly: not everyone who mines in highsec is afk or a bot ok? secondly, most of the people who want to change suicide ganking dont want to remove it completely, just make it harder to gank and add more risk to the gankers. so that a trial account cant destroy a mining ship thats designed for deep space where the bigger threats are (ignore the npc rats in nullsec, they really aren't much of a challenge) the defensive capabilities of a hulk are nowhere near where they should be for a ship of its intended role


We have squabbles over those tech moons all the time. Most of our fleet losses in the last three months have been hovering over a tech moon fighting for it. So I wouldn't call it "Risk free" isk generation. Unless you have no idea of what the word "Risk" means.

I give NCDot another two or three weeks before their leadership spergs the hell out and decides to go after our tech again, at which point there will be more fights hovering over tech moons.


one out of how many?

☻/ /▌ / \ This is Bob, post him into your forum sig and help him conquer the forums.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#64 - 2012-06-01 06:37:32 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
Mcpewy wrote:
Yeah we should make 2 month old characters automatically when they log in pop a box up that says you must move to low sec or null please choose a station. Make all accounts move out of high sec and bann from docking if over 2 months while in high sec. We can get rid of some t2 bpos that way so you cant hide em in high sec. Then ban like they did with carriers all freighters from high sec. Hell take away high sec so null sec can't use it with neutral alts to move stuff from jita.


Sorry, but that's just bull****. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be able to play in highsec if you choose. If you want to play the game with a high level of safety, feel free to stay in highsec for your entire time in EVE. Taking the low risk, low reward path is a perfectly valid gameplay choice, and I do not in any way think that you should be forced to accept a higher level of risk.

However, what I DO object to is highsec providing veteran-level income with near-zero risk, and highsec carebears whining and crying every time there's even the smallest threat to their AFK income.


I don't know if you are real or not, your posts leave open the question.

Mining is the lowest reward profession in game, where the hell do you see this "high reward"?
They already chose the low risk low reward path, till some months ago mining things like ice yielded an OH SO GROSS 5M per hour. That certainly competed with supercap farming in 0.0, it is THE reason why 0.0 seccers leave their paradise to come to hi sec!

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Hannibal Ord
Fer-De-Lance
#65 - 2012-06-01 06:49:25 UTC
This is ******* insane. From both sides.

Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#66 - 2012-06-01 06:51:34 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
They already chose the low risk low reward path, till some months ago mining things like ice yielded an OH SO GROSS 5M per hour. That certainly competed with supercap farming in 0.0, it is THE reason why 0.0 seccers leave their paradise to come to hi sec!


hmm I wonder who stands more to lose, the mackinaw pilot mining ice in hisec or the (admittedly dumb) supercarrier pilot running anoms

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#67 - 2012-06-01 06:51:35 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Guard
Merin Ryskin wrote:


Not really. The issue isn't just how safe highsec is now (and it's still pretty safe, even if a lot of stupid people are getting ganked), it's also how safe the highsec carebears WANT it to be. If, instead of "nerf suicide ganking", the general highsec carebear response was "yay, my competition is dead now the minerals are all mine", there might be a bit more room for understanding, but what we actually have is a lot of very loud people demanding changes that will damage the risk/reward balance even more than they already have.


Who the hell are you to decide that miners have to be Please avoid derogatory terms. - Guard hell bent ravaging each other?

There's studies demonstrating how overall cooperative beta personalities consistently beat ultra-competitive alpha personalities.

You show to be IDENTICAL to these miners, you are both totally full of sense of entitlement to decide who must do what.


Merin Ryskin wrote:


It's not just that they're playing it "the wrong way", the problem is that they're:

1) Getting too much reward for the minimal risks in highsec.

and

2) Demanding changes which would be make the situation even worse every time there's a threat to their ability to have 100% safe AFK income.

As long as these two statements are true, highsec carebears deserve to be ganked over and over again until they quit the game. And they will not be missed.



1) Who the hell are you to decide that the lowest reward profession in game (to the point the ISDs in rookie chat tell new players to mine) earns them "too much"?

The market is an harsher judge than you will ever dream to be. 10% More safety => 40% less income for them due to market competition.

If this was an hack and slash game, you'd be complaining how level 1 players are earning too much killing level 1 pigs and how level 80 players in super epics (set name= "Hulk") are earning too much killing level 1 pigs.

But hey, for some reason even a stupid game like WoW entices level 80 players to get away from killing level 1 pigs and kill level 80 pigs, while EvE, THE OH SO SANDBOX PLAYER MADE CONTENT is so poor that it fails at something so simple.

Learn to provide less sh!tty player made content and level 80 people will come in your wasteland without you schooling them.

But no, it's easier to cry about the evil level 80 players sitting in a mediocre NPC based starter area than improving the completely player driven sh!tty high level area.
And since it's totally player made content, it sucks because of YOU making it suck and un-enticing.


2) They are cornered in a mechanism that makes them hard coded preys, whose only option is to stop mining, evade, outlive the attack and all sorts of passive "get a beating and don't die" setups.

Let's make them able to immediately fight back as they get attacked and then talk again. As of now all they can do is hiring some mercs but it's clunky because concord is working for the gankers not for the mercs.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#68 - 2012-06-01 07:02:20 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
They already chose the low risk low reward path, till some months ago mining things like ice yielded an OH SO GROSS 5M per hour. That certainly competed with supercap farming in 0.0, it is THE reason why 0.0 seccers leave their paradise to come to hi sec!


hmm I wonder who stands more to lose, the mackinaw pilot mining ice in hisec or the (admittedly dumb) supercarrier pilot running anoms


Considering that:

- before (not during) Hulkageddon the ice mining systems in caldari empire had from 23 to 70+ macks popped a day,

- considering how RMT renter pets are exclusively in 0.0 and pay billions a month in rental

- considering how the 80+ unknown people in local will report a bot mack vastly more often than the blues of a 0.0 RMT operation

- considering that you see 8500 miners popped in 1 month vs less ratting supercaps (can't be arsed calculating ratting popped supercap numbers / cost, feel free to do it and post if it's higher than number of macks popped / cost).

it's easy to see how supercap ratting is not so bad at all.

If they decide that jump cloning to hi sec to do incursions (and not mining, guess why?) then it's an incursions issue, not mining.

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Bossy Lady
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#69 - 2012-06-01 07:06:08 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
The bad: mining sucks. It's boring as hell, it doesn't pay much (yet), and is generally the fastest way to get bored and quit EVE unless you're a bot.

The good: endless ganking of mining barges and carebears who are too stupid to figure out how to avoid being ganked and/or too lazy to make even the most basic attempts to protect themselves. When these worthless parasites on the game finally ragequit, mineral prices will increase and mining will become a much more profitable activity.

So, the question: when will enough carebears ragequit to get the ISK/hour for mining to a point that the profit justifies the endless misery of mining? At what point will even the most dedicated griefers and pirates find themselves training Mining Barge V?


It pays pretty damb well if you're mining ABCs now, especially since it's extremely easy to scale to multibox 3 or 4 Hulks

Posting on this character because apparently some people get upset when they're asked difficult questions. M.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#70 - 2012-06-01 07:07:44 UTC
When all the pre-purge botted minerals are depleted (this might take longer then anyone realized)
Mangold
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
#71 - 2012-06-01 07:07:50 UTC
Doctor Benway Kado wrote:
Andoria Thara wrote:
Doctor Benway Kado wrote:

This is why we hate you, by the way.


Why's that? Because I countered someone saying remove all mining from highsec with remove all markets from highsec?

Because you make "only" 20 million an hour, AFK mining, in the most secure and least risky part of space - and then still complain.

And don't claim that mining in highsec isn't safe. It isn't safe because we hate you.


Admittingly it's been a while since I mined but you sure as hell don't get 20M/hr afk-mining. Only way to really mine and beeing afk is to setup a hauler with a miner in high sec system and leave while you're at work.

Please prove me wrong.
Mangold
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
#72 - 2012-06-01 07:11:13 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:

Either way, highsec miners need to be ganked out of the game until the situation is fixed.


why?
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#73 - 2012-06-01 07:14:24 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:

Too bad this supposed majority is a silent one. It's a lot easier to say "let the minority whine" when they're dominating the forum discussion and CCP might actually listen to them and give them changes that they believe a majority of miners want.


Bring this silent majority out. After all miners are told that if they don't like Goonswarm dictating their game they have "just" to form those epic organized alliances to go displace them.

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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#74 - 2012-06-01 07:18:30 UTC
Mangold wrote:
Merin Ryskin wrote:

Either way, highsec miners need to be ganked out of the game until the situation is fixed.


why?


What part of "parasite on the game" is so hard to understand?

Highsec carebears contribute nothing to the game, and demand the removal of anything that might threaten their 100% safe income generation (preferably AFK). The best solution is that they get ganked over and over again until they quit, so the EVE universe can be a much better place.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#75 - 2012-06-01 07:29:14 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
Ituhata Saken wrote:
What am I missing here, or is it an issue that you just can't get get miners to come out to null?


The issue is that the Hulk is an endgame mining ship. It is only flown by veteran players, ideally with a high level of player and character skills


A newly created zero implants character takes 11 days to train a retriever (the first barge, clearly newbie).
Takes further 38 days to train a covetor, still a T1 ship.
Takes further 2 (two) days to train an Hulk, the "supermegafantatop" mining ship.

I don't know you, but 51 days from zero pre-requisites at all and no implants to train does not seem so "veteran". Expecially when the difference between the T1 and T2 version of it is all of 2 days.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#76 - 2012-06-01 07:32:30 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
Mangold wrote:
Merin Ryskin wrote:

Either way, highsec miners need to be ganked out of the game until the situation is fixed.


why?


What part of "parasite on the game" is so hard to understand?

Highsec carebears contribute nothing to the game, and demand the removal of anything that might threaten their 100% safe income generation (preferably AFK). The best solution is that they get ganked over and over again until they quit, so the EVE universe can be a much better place.


Well, going by your smart simplification, 0.0 seccers contribute to:

- adding lag, making TiDi trigger in the same node and affect the real PvPers, that is those in low sec.
- making forums slower and CAOD alike.

With their arrogant and hostile attitude they certainly not contribute enticing newer players to join them. So they have to resort to scorched earth to make the rest of the universe so crap that people are forced to join them. So nice bunch of people they are.

See I also know how to generalize.

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Kadbal
Doomheim
#77 - 2012-06-01 07:36:27 UTC
I'm pretty sure they can mine wherever they want, as it is a sandbox after all. Just the same as you have the right to gank them wherever they fly. The main point of it though is that pvper with little or no skill can get a kill and feel somewhat worthy at hitting someone who cant fight back.
Bunnie Hop
Bunny Knights
#78 - 2012-06-01 07:37:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Bunnie Hop
Merin Ryskin wrote:
Tenchi Sal wrote:
im pretty sure most miners are quitting not over pvp but how ****** the community of EVE is becomming. look at all the rage/hate towards them, they are blamed for every last thing thats bad in EVE online. i been playing mmos since 1999, dont ever remember seeing a group of players so blatantly "hated on" more then EVE miners.


You know why they're blamed? Because highsec miners, just like other highsec carebears, are bad for the game.

Highsec is supposed to be the tutorial area, with the least risk but also the lowest rewards. There should be absolutely zero profit for veteran players in highsec. If you have the skills to fly a Hulk, you should be forced to move to lowsec or 0.0 to get any money. You should NOT be given a nice gank-free AFK income source like highsec miners demand.

Hulkageddon should be impossible for the simple reason that there are no Hulks in highsec, and therefore nothing to suicide gank besides a handful of tutorial players mining in their frigates.


Just another mindless 'my way or the highway' thread. These posts are more whiney than those the people like you accuse of being whiney carebears. The most basic premis of your arguement is flawed nonetheless, hi-sec is not a training area, its a vibrant space full of activity for both the new and older players and if it were removed or its content nerfed the low sec community would suffer as much as the high sec community. This type of polarity is not needed or productive, what both sides of this community need is more empathy. Even Robert McNamara said one of the rules of war is empathy for the enemy, which is clearly lacking here in the forum wars.
Mangold
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
#79 - 2012-06-01 08:03:10 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
Mangold wrote:
Merin Ryskin wrote:

Either way, highsec miners need to be ganked out of the game until the situation is fixed.


why?


What part of "parasite on the game" is so hard to understand?

Highsec carebears contribute nothing to the game, and demand the removal of anything that might threaten their 100% safe income generation (preferably AFK). The best solution is that they get ganked over and over again until they quit, so the EVE universe can be a much better place.


Please show me where high sec dwellers "demand the removal of anything that might threaten their 100% safe income generation (preferably AFK)".

And while you're at it can you please explain why they are a "parasite of the game"?
R3aliti
GV Dark Roast Ground Coffee
#80 - 2012-06-01 08:03:24 UTC
This new forum system DOES NOT WORK for me. I spent an hour writing a logical response to a subject and when I try to post it tells me I have 27 drafts of my post do I wish to to replace my current with the last draft - I say no - and end up with a blank post

I guess my thoughts are to never be posted and lost in endless drafts - Thanks for the new system.