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why don't minerbears just fly with logi?

Author
Ituhata Saken
Killboard Padding Services
#201 - 2012-05-31 14:19:19 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Tippia wrote:
but unlike the Hulk, at least the Basilisk is a combat ship. Blink
Oh god, kitten dies everytime someone fits guns to Basi.
Why would you fit guns to it?


The same reason I'd make a battle drone hulk.

So close...

Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#202 - 2012-05-31 14:26:24 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Why would you fit guns to it?


I wouldn't fit guns to it. It's a support ship, not a combat ship.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#203 - 2012-05-31 14:26:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
RubyPorto wrote:


You want to fight back? Get that rep Rokh on field and have your protection crew SEBOed up ready to shoot the catalysts as they open fire.

If you had some other idea that I missed, sorry, I took some time off from the thread to sleep and might have missed something catching up.


Well our setup consists of 1-2 scimitars, SEBOed 1 cane with web scram NOS, 1 HAC (all with faction ammo), 1 interceptor plus the miner got x level 5 trained links Orca and a number of 30K EHP hulks plus repair drones. I have buff fleet implant. Sometimes another merc corp brings in 2 additional RR battleships.

You will agree this is not a poor setup. I would say it's a Majestic setup.

Even then, it's fking hard. All it takes is 10 seconds of not looking at the screen and they STILL manage to kill a 30K EHP hulk with all this sh!t protecting them. If he gets the lock, before all the incoming hostiles die they often get the hulk down to mid structure. It's a totally imbalanced fight, even when you know who are the hostiles and are waiting for them and placed the ships at their optimal and so on.

What I propose would make it humanly bearable to gain those 3-4 seconds to kill the guys without Concord in the balls.

As you see it's not like they (sometimes "we") don't go balls out to the pew pew, the mechanic is just hideously imbalanced in ganker's favor.


RubyPorto wrote:

The number of people who choose an option is irrelevant.

Logging Supers and Titans off mid battle was the option 95% of dying super-pilots took. CCP nerfed that. 95% of Miners were picking the AFK option? Fine, CCP didn't nerf it, GSF did.



Well it's irrelevant to you, for the guy used to have 3-4 macks out it's a shocker. It's still THE option that has been removed.


RubyPorto wrote:

Not that they need to, but they've been pretty dang open with every single one of their mass market manipulations.

Gallente Ice Interdiction, they announced that they had bought spectacular amounts of Oxy Topes.
Caldari Ice Interdiction, same shit, different flavor
Hulkageddon, repeatedly pointing out that each Hulk contains 200m ISK with of Technetium and that GSF is part of OTEC.

Of course they're going to dress it up. The state fair is about selling food and livestock, but you dress it up to make it more fun. The Mittani wrote up a nice little backstory for HAG to make it more fun.


It's not just dressed up, maybe it's not my style, but he really went psycho rant out there.
Darius Brinn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#204 - 2012-05-31 14:26:49 UTC
Morganta wrote:


like flying logi on an incursion or fleet op is a thrill ride Roll


I never did that, but I expect flying logi in Incursions gets you FABULOUS income compared to protecting a Hulk in High sec.

Or maybe not.

If I am misinformed, please let me know so I can go and buy a Hulk and hire a Logi pilot or something.
Morganta
The Greater Goon
Clockwork Pineapple
#205 - 2012-05-31 14:28:31 UTC
play money = fun?
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#206 - 2012-05-31 14:38:55 UTC
Tippia wrote:
…and the miner can rejoice in the knowledge that he made more money (and lost a whole lot less) from the whole thing than the gankers did.

Six battlecruisers, fitting more battleship-sized weapons than the actual battleships can fit, killing what everyone claims to be a weak, non-combat, resource collection vehicle… working as intended. If anything, it suggests that maybe the Hulk could use a nerf because of the silly amount of damage it can withstand.


No, because the miner and his corp objective was not about posturing like a PvP winner and smack in local, but to keep a steady material flow.
The gankers might lose more ISK but they achieved their objective to disrupt the industry operation.

This is also an issue that plagues wardecs: it's basically a free win on the attackers, because they lose ships that were meant to lose anyway but they always achieve the objective to disrupt the defendant.


Sarah Schneider wrote:

Ah.. well, i get the mining links bonuses. Just not sure about any increase on survivability when doing them in groups.


If you have a proper setup you can and will get some tasty shield and armor buff, sometimes it's enough to avoid what would otherwise have been a death.
Lexmana
#207 - 2012-05-31 14:41:14 UTC
I think I know the answer to this question.
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
#208 - 2012-05-31 14:41:38 UTC
I think the only thing more boring in EvE than mining is guarding miners. You honestly expect folks to do this in high sec?
Andre Altor
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#209 - 2012-05-31 14:41:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Andre Altor
RubyPorto wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Tippia wrote:
If anything, it suggests that maybe the Hulk could use a nerf because of the silly amount of damage it can withstand.


LOL Lol

A tanked Basilisk squeezes 80k EHP into a sub-cruiser sig radius. Does that need to be nerfed too?


A tanked Damnation can squeeze 1m EHP into a small BC sig radius. Does that need to be nerfed?

Different ships are different. Shocked

The Hulk is fine as it is, and tanked properly is impossible to gank profitably. It does not need a half million (or whatever number people keep proposing) Hull HP to let it survive suicide ganks.


Hulk is not "fine" as it is, because "properly tanked" is useless as mining ship, which means that whole exhumer branch is useless, and if you're beginner, then instead of looking for mining profession you should train for combat ship, otherwise you're going to loose your time for useless skill branches like Exhumers (1m280k points) or Mining Barge (another 1m points). Not mentioning another completely not worth training time needed for Modulated strip miner.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#210 - 2012-05-31 14:55:19 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


Well our setup consists of 1-2 scimitars, SEBOed 1 cane with web scram NOS, 1 HAC (all with faction ammo), 1 interceptor plus the miner got x level 5 trained links Orca and a number of 30K EHP hulks plus repair drones. I have buff fleet implant. Sometimes another merc corp brings in 2 additional RR battleships.

You will agree this is not a poor setup. I would say it's a Majestic setup.

Even then, it's fking hard. All it takes is 10 seconds of not looking at the screen and they STILL manage to kill a 30K EHP hulk with all this sh!t protecting them. If he gets the lock, before all the incoming hostiles die they often get the hulk down to mid structure. It's a totally imbalanced fight, even when you know who are the hostiles and are waiting for them and placed the ships at their optimal and so on.

What I propose would make it humanly bearable to gain those 3-4 seconds to kill the guys without Concord in the balls.

As you see it's not like they (sometimes "we") don't go balls out to the pew pew, the mechanic is just hideously imbalanced in ganker's favor.


Oh my, looking at the screen is so very hard. Sometimes, when I look at the screen, I get sad and stop playing the game I'm trying to play.

Anyway, why go so overboard in HS? The mechanics clearly don't give you any advantage in HS. Get a Rokh, Rep with the magic Healing Stick (hint, 8 reps staggered at 1s intervals give you 2 reps landing per second, and it's cap stable). While you're repping, you should have plenty of time to kill some untanked destroyers. The hulk shouldn't be anywhere near dying unless you've turned off your reps.

Or, fit a bunch of Tornados for anti-Dessie duty.[Fit at Bottom] will kill a gank dessie in two volleys which are 2.8s apart after spending 1.2s locking. Since you can pre-lock the dessies, they now have 3s to gank your 30k EHP hulk, requiring 10,000 DPS worth of dessies. In a fight that can't last more than ~30s, most of your ships aren't useful. An inty to catch pods, sure, but the rest need to be super-seboed and designed for straight DPS. Don't bother with EWAR or Neuts, or even webs/points (though those don't hurt), you're in a straight damage race. If you can do 4k damage before they do 30k, you win. It's not a very fair race, so they get to shoot the starting pistol.

Or (and this is a subtle one), get the Hulk out of the belt before they land. Put a Daredevil or Vigilant or Vindi on field with the hulk with those nice 90% webs. 2-3 of those webs and a Hulk will warp out before the ganker finishes loading grid. Or just use a buttload of normal webs.

Also, haven't you been trying to distance yourself from being called out for mining in a silly way by claiming not to mine? This post isn't helping that cause.

Quote:

RubyPorto wrote:

The number of people who choose an option is irrelevant.

Logging Supers and Titans off mid battle was the option 95% of dying super-pilots took. CCP nerfed that. 95% of Miners were picking the AFK option? Fine, CCP didn't nerf it, GSF did.



Well it's irrelevant to you, for the guy used to have 3-4 macks out it's a shocker. It's still THE option that has been removed.


Not removed, it's still an option. You just have to accept more risk to use that option. If you don't CHOOSE to accept that risk, adapt.

Quote:

It's not just dressed up, maybe it's not my style, but he really went psycho rant out there.


Do you think the Mittani, in his RL day to day life, when he's not representing GSF, speaks and acts that way? Somehow I doubt it. Thus, dressed up.


Fit:

[Tornado, Protect Ze Miners]

Tracking Enhancer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II

Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script

Dual 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
Dual 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
Dual 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
Dual 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
Dual 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
Dual 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
Dual 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
Dual 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion L

Medium Projectile Collision Accelerator I
Medium Targeting System Subcontroller I
[Empty Rig slot]

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#211 - 2012-05-31 14:59:11 UTC
Andre Altor wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Tippia wrote:
If anything, it suggests that maybe the Hulk could use a nerf because of the silly amount of damage it can withstand.


LOL Lol

A tanked Basilisk squeezes 80k EHP into a sub-cruiser sig radius. Does that need to be nerfed too?


A tanked Damnation can squeeze 1m EHP into a small BC sig radius. Does that need to be nerfed?

Different ships are different. Shocked

The Hulk is fine as it is, and tanked properly is impossible to gank profitably. It does not need a half million (or whatever number people keep proposing) Hull HP to let it survive suicide ganks.


Hulk is not "fine" as it is, because "properly tanked" is useless as mining ship, which means that whole exhumer branch is useless, and if you're beginner, then instead of looking for mining profession you should train for combat ship, otherwise you're going to loose your time for useless skill branches like Exhumers (1m280k points) or Mining Barge (another 1m points). Not mentioning another completely not worth training time needed for Modulated strip miner.


Does it not mine anymore without upgrades?
up·grade (pgrd) v. up·grad·ed, up·grad·ing, up·grades v.tr.
1. To raise to a higher grade or standard

The tanked hulk has the hulk's base yield, thus it mines just fine, and still better than any other ship.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#212 - 2012-05-31 15:00:33 UTC
Ana Vyr wrote:
I think the only thing more boring in EvE than mining is guarding miners. You honestly expect folks to do this in high sec?


No, I expect more whining in the forums by people too lazy to deal with other players.

I'm pretty sure my expectations will prove accurate.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#213 - 2012-05-31 15:12:55 UTC
Was almost about to press "Like" because you seem to actually want to give advice (even if some of it does not apply too well) but these:


RubyPorto wrote:

Oh my, looking at the screen is so very hard. Sometimes, when I look at the screen, I get sad and stop playing the game I'm trying to play.


Have YOU tried watching some dumb objects hitting roids for 4-5 hours with nothing going on? You get in a cataleptic state.
Even spamming D-Scan is less boring.


RubyPorto wrote:

Anyway, why go so overboard in HS?


Because they pay? Also, I always side with the weak and the oppressed by principle.


RubyPorto wrote:

Also, haven't you been trying to distance yourself from being called out for mining in a silly way by claiming not to mine? This post isn't helping that cause.


Yeah, because using a scimitar or a 'cane is clearly = mining.


RubyPorto wrote:

Do you think the Mittani, in his RL day to day life, when he's not representing GSF, speaks and acts that way? Somehow I doubt it. Thus, dressed up.


He does not speak that way, he is totally full of himself and of some unkind feelings.
As the ancient say: "In vino veritas" (In wine truth).

The first time he got drunk he DID show for what he is and it's in line with that post.

About the Tornado: aren't them expecially bad at tracking even with 425mm? Expecially as in terrible. It's why I am using a cane.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#214 - 2012-05-31 15:29:25 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Was almost about to press "Like" because you seem to actually want to give advice (even if some of it does not apply too well) but these:

Have YOU tried watching some dumb objects hitting roids for 4-5 hours with nothing going on? You get in a cataleptic state.
Even spamming D-Scan is less boring.

Yes. I didn't enjoy it. I stopped doing it. EvE has Options. You get to pick your poison.
Hey, if you like spamming D-Scan while you do this, you can get advanced warning that a gank is incoming.

Quote:


Because they pay? Also, I always side with the weak and the oppressed by principle.


For mercenaries you don't know the mechanics you're working with very well, do you?

For paid mercenaries, you aren't all that dedicated to your clients either, if you're not paying attention for the one thing they hired you to pay attention for?

Quote:


Yeah, because using a scimitar or a 'cane is clearly = mining.

In a mining fleet, sitting in a belt, what else are you doing? Besides being mediocre mercs, that is.

Quote:

About the Tornado: aren't them expecially bad at tracking even with 425mm? Expecially as in terrible. It's why I am using a cane.


.172 tracking is just fine for shooting a destroyer that will be bumping up against your Hulk bait thing.

Heck, add a Rook or Falcon. Some jam cycles should disrupt the gank even better.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#215 - 2012-05-31 15:37:13 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Heck, add a Rook or Falcon. Some jam cycles should disrupt the gank even better.


Why use those? Kitsune would cause raging too with smaller price tag.
Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
#216 - 2012-05-31 15:38:07 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
[
Friendship is indeed Magic

Highseccers look at the safety of deep Sov space and don't realize that keeping that safety requires effort on everyone's part.


Dude I am a player that spend 5 years in 0.0. I know how it works. Doesn change the fact that the final security is higher in 0.0 than in high sec. It needs effort .. yes.. but can be raised to a level far more than concord level.
Morganta
The Greater Goon
Clockwork Pineapple
#217 - 2012-05-31 15:38:44 UTC
so what I taking away from this thread so far is

defending yourself or your mining pals is far too boring and or unpossible with your craptastic skills

miners just want single player eve, well that is until it comes time to sell the goods, then miners want millions of players to provide them with a robust market to get rich off of

is this about right?
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#218 - 2012-05-31 15:46:17 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Heck, add a Rook or Falcon. Some jam cycles should disrupt the gank even better.


Why use those? Kitsune would cause raging too with smaller price tag.


They're better at it, and you're not likely to lose them, so the price isn't a giant deal. Kitsue would be fine except LOL EAF to V Roll

Besides, more jammers means more ships jammed.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
#219 - 2012-05-31 15:52:18 UTC
Morganta wrote:
welp?




logi are just as nice a target.. and require an added account... Have you tried mining on multiple accounts since the new inventory mess? It's a lag fest at best... even 3 accounts is not useful due to lag and cumbersome inventory workings.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#220 - 2012-05-31 15:53:32 UTC
Seishi Maru wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
[
Friendship is indeed Magic

Highseccers look at the safety of deep Sov space and don't realize that keeping that safety requires effort on everyone's part.


Dude I am a player that spend 5 years in 0.0. I know how it works. Doesn change the fact that the final security is higher in 0.0 than in high sec. It needs effort .. yes.. but can be raised to a level far more than concord level.


Yes, that's the whole point, Nullesec is the High Effort, High Coordination > High rewards area. HS is the Low Effort, Low Coordination > Low rewards area.

The final safety in both is probably pretty similar. Nullsec has Awoxing, HS had Suicide Ganks. I'll bet that, aside from things like HAG, Awoxing affects a much larger proportion of the Nullsec population than suicide ganking affects the HS population.

Thing is, in HS you can relax and watch anything other than local, like a movie while running missions or something, local you need to actively be paying attention to avoid death by roaming gang (something that HS doesn't really have an equivalent for).

Overall chance of death, similar. Effort expended to achieve that low chance of death, massive difference. The effort is what matters.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon