Jita Park Speakers Corner

And how would the ideas you and Caliph come up with "change a broken system" so the population of "both the server and null space" would increase?

I'll take that as a "well shucks, bob, it won't actually make the population increase at all, in fact it'll do the opposite, but I just won't say that because then I'll lose the argument.", then.

Humm, I understand your issue with choke points but how many times do you use these choke points on a day to day basis? (plus on a good note you already know where you can get kills when roaming???)

I'm only asking because as a 0.0 dweller myself I have very small need to travel between choke point gates and when I do I use a ship that is suitable for evading gate camps. Again 0.0 is supposed to be about team-play damn the whole of EVE is based around that but a lot fo the arguments I'm seeing seems to be directed to "I'll have this problem" not "We".

The fact is with all the arguments for and against I believe it's better to try something new and say it doesn't work than to say "Bah it sounds like shite lets not even try it" (although there really are some very "shite" ideas that shouldn;t be tried )

No local seems to work in WH based on the amount of "You want to remove local theres a place it already works...." replies people give so why shouldn't it work in 0.0???

I just get them feeling that alot of the replies (I'm actually going to exclude Zim from this because you can see he is actually thinking about his replies.) are more to do with "I like my little life and niche I have in 0.0 and I don't want anything upsetting the apple cart." than anything else.

Myself considering the little amount of actual playtime I get in EVE lately I should be all for the "I need things safe and happy so I can make as much ISK as quickly as possible because I have limited time to play" etc etc but I think removing local even for a limited time would be a interesting change.

Aye, I would have no problem with that at all,

I think though your "0.0 losing people" would actually be the usual carebear types that hang around in 0.0 alliances who are always around to rat but when the fighting starts always seem to have extended vacations, long lost relatives turning up, alien abductions stories etc.

Trimming the fat is the phrase I would use not 0.0 losing people.

Anyway I digress, If it was tried and was found to be a detriment to 0.0 I wouldn't have any problems saying you were right and let you be smug for at least a day or so

There are very fundamental differences in the way one operates in wormholes and the way one operates in nullsec. Traveling to a particular w-space system requires you to find a wormhole to begin with. Traveling to a particular nullsec system only involves setting a destination. You also can't take an unlimited number of ships through a wormhole, you can't use jump drives in wormholes, you can't simply cloak up, scan and warp to a 100% signature like you would a 0.0 anomaly. Living in a wormhole is much more dependent on probing, and probes can be detected on dscan. These are not minor, insignificant differences - instant k-space style local in wormholes would be overpowered considering the amount of effort required to travel into and within a w-space system. Wormhole style local in 0.0 would make bombers and other cloaky ships far overpowered, on the other hand.

I'm crazy enough to do industry in nullsec (among other things), and my current route from collecting, refining, building and taking to market is about 10 jumps with bridges. It already is a "we" effort because I have to dual box a PvP guy with my hauler because cargo ships in this game as pretty much all too weak to stand up to anything. I also rely on my team mates providing intel, and local is part of that. I even hire scouts from time to time. Doing logistics in nullsec is already plenty interesting.

I prefer the farms and fields approach to getting people to come to and stay in nullsec. At is, there is already little reason to live here and that shows in the population and the complaints that blobs can hold key resources without living near them. It already is a difficult place to live and bandits already have numerous advantages.


I have no doubt that no-local would be a big boon to small covops gangs. As some one who flies them, it would definitely be easier to live in enemy territory and kill soft targets all day long. However, nullsec is not kind to stupid players, and the smart players are all going to switch to ships capable of fitting the covops cloak because they will be quite plainly overpowered.

Let this situation persist, and eventually you will chase out the few "carebare" industrialists and freighter pilots, and no one will stock nullsec markets. So then _all_ nullsec dwellers will be basing out of empire and day tripping into null.


All the pro's so far for the removal of local are for covops. It won't cut down on large alliances of blues, because it now forces everyone to blob up to move around safely. It won't help little alliances get a foothold in sov because campers can cut supply lines to anyone who doesn't have a massive list of blues. No one will rat or mine or do anything because they will die to the covops ships that are now completely undetectable until they are within firing range. Cloakers get a "I don't want to PvP right now" button, and every one else is a sitting duck.

It's a change that would only help one aspect of PvP (cloaky ambush) at pretty much the expense of everything else. So in many ways, the arguments for removing local are just as selfish as my reasons for keeping it. At least keeping it gives people a simple way of doing a risk assessment. And plenty of people in null still get ganked even with local.

Actually the primary point I am standing behind is the alterations to Null best termed "Capitals and Forts". I believe this Idea would be a very good one and teamed with a nerf of Jump drives by delay or by cost. As well as an upgrade of the Science facilities in Null as proposed by Lord Zim.

The reason so much of this forum post is on no local was due to the arguments on it, this part now seems to be getting more support.

On capitals and forts the idea is not mine but is a post I found from a member of Goonswarm that I thought was good and so decided to back it. Sure I could have just sat back and thrown insults at people and called there ideas insane while never contributing anything (Serious comment not aimed at Lord Zim as he has come forth with some good ideas even though I did accuse him of fence sitting)

And Darth Tickles your inability to be able to read is hardly my fault, perhaps you should sue your primary school teacher.

Moved from General Discussion.

If you wanted to. The best way to create a Sovereignty system that no one will find loop holes in is of course to just get rid of it completely. The idea is to create a better null not just make the current problems worse or argue that everything anyone comes up with is wrong.

That said I would actually like to hear a fleshed out version of exactly what you would prefer for Null science. Please.

I will admit you actual brought up a point that someone had touched on before.

That being it would be a good idea to support the idea of local defense by allowing Titans and Supers to dock in Outposts within the Capital and Fort systems.

That would certainly be preferable to a sov system which tries to "limit sprawl" by ramping up isk cost based on how far from a "capital system" you get, because that's certainly not going to limit the "big alliances" (read: goonswarm) which you want to punish, unless you make the cost so hilariously expensive that ... well, guess we didn't want those small alliances in nullsec anyways. vOv


Yeah, about that... I hear you have a "no local" suggestion which fits in with the "make the current problems worse" bin.


I'm not arguing that everything anyone comes up with is wrong, I'm arguing that bad ideas, regardless of who comes up with it, is a bad idea. There's a difference.

And I've supported/helped flesh out multiple good ideas, you know this.


If by "science" you mean "industry", I mean more of it. Compare, if you will, the amount of industry capacity in the entirety of Deklein, vs some of the bigger systems in hisec. I would not be shocked at all if a large portion of hisec systems, by themselves, surpass Deklein.


The funny thing is, I brought up no such thing.

Isk only is so much that he who had more cash could own a larger amount of territory while spending more in actual terms but less in percentage terms, with the more spaced out your territory is the more it would cost you to supply said areas.

As to the second part of your argument I agree to the need to Nerf jump ships, as to the allowing sov to switch easier I believe that should be related to how much effort is put into an area not just buying upgrades but actual doing things. As I have said before having a slider bar with the more you do the more stable that system is, almost like what the FW system has just become but more, including what mining is done as well as plexing and also including just active moving within the system by the alliance members. The more active the more stable.

If you ignore a system you take it should be easier to loose.