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[Issue] Its time to do something about moongold!!

Author
Belloch
lll tempered sea bass
#21 - 2011-10-04 21:09:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Belloch
Big Bad Mofo wrote:

This is a game not real life.


And this viewpoint sums up your original post in a nutshell. If you were to take the game more seriously you'd find yourself finding more success. Those who take the game more seriously should profit more in the game than those who don't.

You are not powerless. You simply lack the will to obtain power. Your lack of will translates into a complaint that it's "too hard". It's too hard for _you_ and people like you, because people like you don't _want_ to look at the game more seriously and dedicate more effort to succeeding in the game because you have relegated it to a less serious status. Punishing those who have submitted that level of dedication is both a salute to mediocrity and a slap in the face of invention, tenacity, ferocity and guile.

You get what you give. In real life. In games. In love. Whatever.

I'm guessing you haven't made it too far in real life either.
Joshua Aivoras
Tech IV Industries
#22 - 2011-10-05 15:53:16 UTC
Belloch wrote:
Big Bad Mofo wrote:

This is a game not real life.


Those who take the game more seriously should profit more in the game than those who don't.

You get what you give. In real life. In games. In love. Whatever.


Completely agree with this, but....


Quote:
You are not powerless. You simply lack the will to obtain power. Your lack of will translates into a complaint that it's "too hard". It's too hard for _you_ and people like you, because people like you don't _want_ to look at the game more seriously and dedicate more effort to succeeding in the game because you have relegated it to a less serious status. Punishing those who have submitted that level of dedication is both a salute to mediocrity and a slap in the face of invention, tenacity, ferocity and guile.


objectively (can't stress that enough, no flame please),

Although there may be some truth in this, the fact of the matter is that the only groups that have a chance at acquiring these ISK printing moons are other super alliances that can field their own super blobs.

So I guess theoretically you are right, in the sense that the OP lacks the will and determination to work for 8+ years and form a superpower....

or I guess you might be able to work out some sort of agreement with one to rent a system from them with a good moon in it, but why would they loan out a moon and get less ISK when they could just keep it themselves?




95% of the players are loving EVE, the other 5%? On the forums.

Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#23 - 2011-10-05 23:49:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Scatim Helicon
Joshua Aivoras wrote:
Just a question for the PL and goonswarm guys......do you guys actually feel this is a problem and just not agree with the idea presented to fix the problem?

................or are you just trying to protect your assets?

not a troll. Honest inquiry.


Randomly despawning and shifting moon minerals around is a bad idea because it does nothing to solve the problem. Having materials move around would only benefit large organised alliances like us and PL and the various Russians, because we have the manpower and the organisational resources to go out and find those new minerals when they move. I've previously been part of Goonswarm's Reconnaissance division, and I've taken part in expeditions to scan entire regions for moons and towers, we can cover a huge number of systems very quickly. If you create a gold rush every month to find the new tech moons, the current big powers will win that race every time, smaller alliances will still be excluded from the running and the only thing that would change is which particular superpower grabs more of the moons on that particular month.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Big Bad Mofo
Doomheim
#24 - 2011-10-07 09:10:22 UTC
Quote:
You are not powerless. You simply lack the will to obtain power. Your lack of will translates into a complaint that it's "too hard". It's too hard for _you_ and people like you, because people like you don't _want_ to look at the game more seriously and dedicate more effort to succeeding in the game because you have relegated it to a less serious status. Punishing those who have submitted that level of dedication is both a salute to mediocrity and a slap in the face of invention, tenacity, ferocity and guile.


What a load of rubbish. Hard work? You mean by RMT and Botting hard work do you mean?

Maybe if you look at the game you will find that no one can compete - NO ONE even the combined forces of NC, DC could not DO ANYTHING and have been established for years. So how do you expect anyone else to...Seriously think about the crap thats coming out of you mouth, before spouting off absolute nonsense....
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#25 - 2011-10-07 12:17:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Grath Telkin
Big Bad Mofo wrote:

Hang on, who said anything about 'reducing' supply?


You did, right here, on this very page
Big Bad Mofo wrote:
these should prob be now classified as r64 and reduced in numbers as well!...


see?
Big Bad Mofo wrote:
What I was trying to say is that large alliances consume the most demand for t2 items, ships, mods etc. Mainly because you fight with 100,200,300+ gangs and potentially lose morein a day than most alliances do in a month, and the reason you can do this, is that you have the endless supply of isk from moons that will instantly replace any losses. So there are no real consequences to your actions.
.


Pandemic Legion has little to no actual reimbursement, and we just ended our alliance ship policy so I've no idea what you mean, ships in PL are sourced by the member, who is expected to keep his wallet intact throughout moves across the galaxy, if you can't do that you don't deserve to be here

Big Bad Mofo wrote:
NO ONE even the combined forces of NC, DC could not DO ANYTHING and have been established for years.

Actually our attack was soundly beaten back by the DC, using ...hold on, this may shock you, tactics, actual tactics, that didn't involve lemming like drives into walls of fire.


I mean, our wallet is super fat, I'm not going to lie to you, we held Dyspro and Prom when it was king, and we used that financial base to build a force that could go after and hold Tech once that changed.

We have spies everywhere, in many instances in director level positions, so I have to ask you, what exactly do you think will happen if they changed the moons to a more dynamic system?

I'll help you:

1) You'd find a moon that yielded some super high end mineral and you'd throw up a miner and start pulling the ore.

2) We'd get wind of it pretty fast and mobilize to come see you.

3) In the mean time, the dynamic spawn system and the amount of work involved in finding the tech has now made the market prices on it spike, this translates into huge spikes in t2 prices, putting the ships out of the reach of the common grunt of most alliances.

4) You would face a fleet from someone like us, comprised entirely of t2/t3 ships while your fleet would be filled with scrub ships and BS covered in meta gear and t1 mods because the cost of t2 mods has gone through the roof.

5) You'd lose your moon 1 day and 17 hours after we attacked, as well as whatever fleet you brought to defend it, we'd not bother to loot or salvage your flotilla of scrap because it wouldn't be worth our time.

6) When the moon ran out we'd let the tower run out of fuel and go offline because the now amped up price of whatever mineral we were mining more than covered the cost of operations and materials

7) We'd leave, you'd still be broke, only now your alliances morale is in the toilet because you got steam rolled by a better armed and armored force.

All this has happened before and all this will happen again.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Vio Geraci
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2011-10-07 12:26:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Vio Geraci
It is easier than you think to take these moons, provided you have the expertise and choose your target well, you will require much less personnel than you imagine. Even so, the main reason for holding much of the space in EVE online is these moons. Every ISK spent taking, defending, and fortifying that space comes out of the bottom line of that ISK produced by the moons.

That said, too much of the wealth is concentrated in technetium, and the bottleneck may need to be diffused or shifted somehow. Moving moons is not the solution due to whole host of reasons, including it being miserable to have to change your home every month, small alliances being displaced by larger alliances because good moons spawned in their space, the havoc it would play with the market, and the general tedium of probing moons and anchoring POS.

This is a complicated issue and any number of intricate solutions should be considered. What should not be considered is a poorly worded thread filled with bitter, unhelpful jeremiads about the evils of large alliances and their supercapital threads.

I think it is pretty clear that you do not fully understand the issue, and are disinterested in educating yourself. This thread is a waste of time.
Sofia Bellard
Doomheim
#27 - 2011-10-08 08:15:36 UTC
Putting a POS in reinforce mode, no matter how large and how many hardeners are not the issue at all. The real issue is at every high end moon, is an alt ready to log in and set the strontium timer to come out at THEIR peak time at a later date.

Congratulations, you put the tower in reinforce mode. Good luck finishing it off when that corporation, its alliance, all of its blues are there within jump range to hot drop you with hundreds of capitals and dozens upon dozens of super capitals to wipe out your fleet in a matter of a couple minutes. Once done, they triage a few carriers and voilà, that POS you worked so hard to take down is completely repaired and filled back up with strontium. As if you never touched it at all.

So yes, they lost out on a few million in moon goo while it was in reinforce mode, but they are circle jerking hard core over hot dropping your fleet. They view every aspect of your operation as a complete failure and they walk away satisfied blowing up billions and billions in ships that once represented your endeavor to carve out a piece of space for your corp and yourself.

Choose your target well? Please share with us your vast knowledge of a good target that won't result in it S.O.S'ing every blue pilot from here to the other side of the galaxy to come and hot drop you when the timer is up? Any targets that can have its moon liberated from them has happened looooong ago by one of the 2-3 super coalitions. The moons that are left barely pay for the fuel that is needed to run them.

Poor sad little pirates,  why you so mad?

Laechyd Eldgorn
Avanto
Hole Control
#28 - 2011-10-08 09:33:39 UTC
Vio Geraci wrote:
It is easier than you think to take these moons, provided you have the expertise and choose your target well, you will require much less personnel than you imagine. Even so, the main reason for holding much of the space in EVE online is these moons. Every ISK spent taking, defending, and fortifying that space comes out of the bottom line of that ISK produced by the moons.

That said, too much of the wealth is concentrated in technetium, and the bottleneck may need to be diffused or shifted somehow. Moving moons is not the solution due to whole host of reasons, including it being miserable to have to change your home every month, small alliances being displaced by larger alliances because good moons spawned in their space, the havoc it would play with the market, and the general tedium of probing moons and anchoring POS.

This is a complicated issue and any number of intricate solutions should be considered. What should not be considered is a poorly worded thread filled with bitter, unhelpful jeremiads about the evils of large alliances and their supercapital threads.

I think it is pretty clear that you do not fully understand the issue, and are disinterested in educating yourself. This thread is a waste of time.


if you would actually play eve you would realise that moving moons is more trouble for big alliances than small organized groups. but then you only want to keep your moons in one place, which is obvious.

goons should stop posting on forums until they actually learn to play

Feligast
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2011-10-08 17:08:42 UTC
If you would start play the eve meta game, you would realize that Dotlan tells you exactly where all those moons in one place are, and how well used that system is. but then you just want to keep whining about the big bad goons to Mommy CCP and demanding they change the game, rather than, you know, form a fleet to take one, which is obvious.

never, NEVER stop posting.
Joshua Aivoras
Tech IV Industries
#30 - 2011-10-09 15:17:57 UTC
Feligast wrote:
If you would start play the eve meta game, you would realize that Dotlan tells you exactly where all those moons in one place are, and how well used that system is.


Not every moon in EVE is registered on Dotlan. I find moons on there with ???'S for their resources all the time. Though this is irrelevant...

Quote:
but then you just want to keep whining about the big bad goons to Mommy CCP and demanding they change the game, rather than, you know, form a fleet to take one, which is obvious.

never, NEVER stop posting.


Please don't mistake this thread for a "Goonswarm are mean wahhhhhhhhhhh' thread, go to crime and punishment for those. In a thread about Moongoo and its inherent financial value in this game, and Goonswarm, being one of the only superpowers in all of EVE to control these moons is inevitably going to be mentioned.


Also it was mentioned above why fleeting up and burning a POS was fruitless. Please read up past the last post.



I was actually talking with my CEO about this, and he actually had a good idea to remove notifications about POS aggro from their owners. That way, you couldn't set up a POS and never enter that system again until the POS needed fuel or the silo needed to be emptied, and alliances would actually need to occupy systems in order to control the Moongoo.

95% of the players are loving EVE, the other 5%? On the forums.

Karim alRashid
Starboard.
#31 - 2011-10-09 15:35:47 UTC
I fail ... Lol

... to see how moving moon materials around would be any worse, compared to the current situation where the superpowers hold the moons indefinitely.

Pain is weakness leaving the body http://www.youtube.com/user/AlRashidKarim/videos

Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#32 - 2011-10-09 15:36:33 UTC
Laechyd Eldgorn wrote:
if you would actually play eve you would realise that moving moons is more trouble for big alliances than small organized groups.

Please explain why a group having more people available to carry out a task makes it harder for that group to carry out that task.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Feligast
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2011-10-10 10:10:43 UTC
Personally, I would just like a little acknowledgment from the moderators when they delete multiple posts in a thread. It's just polite.
Shaidar Hussan
HelloKittyFanclub
#34 - 2011-10-11 03:46:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Shaidar Hussan
*EDIT: Deleted, silly eve forums not loading and making me double post Lol
Shaidar Hussan
HelloKittyFanclub
#35 - 2011-10-11 03:47:08 UTC
Vio Geraci wrote:
It is easier than you think to take these moons, provided you have the expertise and choose your target well, you will require much less personnel than you imagine. Even so, the main reason for holding much of the space in EVE online is these moons. Every ISK spent taking, defending, and fortifying that space comes out of the bottom line of that ISK produced by the moons.

I think I agree with everything you said except this, I can't see how a moon could be taken and held against a vastly superior force. I do however disagree with the OP's suggestion of moving minerals around randomly, large alliances would still retain the advantage in finding the moons and the capacity to blob any credible threat in claiming them.

The fact that EvE is controlled by a small number of very large and powerful alliances is almost inevitable in my view. For CCP to fight it they would need to artificially break up the alliances, perhaps intentionally create internal conflict or motivation to break into smaller groups and fight one another. I for one cannot see how that could be done in a reasonable, non game-breaking, manner.

On top of that, people in those alliances have worked hard to control all that they do. Part of their power or wealth may come from the advantage of having been in the game early on, but then so are skill point advantages. I don't see anyone QQing about them (not often, anyway). Removing their control of the resources they fought for, or intentionally nerfing their capacity to control large areas of space, is not the answer in my eyes.

One other good point brought up in this thread though was that a lot of the moons these alliances control are actually in territory where they are not active, and that seems extremely silly to me. After hearing that I checked, and there is a tech moon with a Raiden pos in my home system, I have never seen a Raiden member in system as long as I have been there.

Perhaps adding a method to attack a POS without alerting the owner, so the owner will only be aware if the pos is checked on, could stretch resources and allow smaller alliances a foot in the door (more likely it would gain CCP more alt accounts though).

tl;dr: The fact that an alliance I have never seen in my system controls that systems resources is just silly, but I disagree with more or less everything else the OP said. I also know nothing about mining, moon mining, T2 production or... well, anything I just wrote a massive wall of text about. I probably should have put that as a disclaimer at the top, eh? Lol
Nurdra
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2011-10-12 15:20:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Nurdra
I think the main problem is the location of the moons.

Some time ago the r64 were the real money making moons. They are very rar and spread over the whole universe.

Now the tech moons are the best, but they are not rar and only available in the north. For example Venal has 71 tech moons (dotlan), thats way to much isk for the alliance living there (over 420b/month), while all other 0.0 holders exept the neigbour living in the north too, have nothing comparable.

T2 production should be redesined again to reduce the bottleneck. r32 moons should not be that good, r64 are the rar ones.
Redesine the need of ressource for t2 manufactering and the moon peoblem will be solved or at leased it will be better than now.
Shaidar Hussan
HelloKittyFanclub
#37 - 2011-10-12 19:09:28 UTC
Nurdra wrote:
T2 production should be redesined again to reduce the bottleneck. r32 moons should not be that good, r64 are the rar ones.
Redesine the need of ressource for t2 manufactering and the moon peoblem will be solved or at leased it will be better than now.

Didn't they say they were messing with t2 production in the winter expansion, or was that just t2 rig production? Would be interesting to see what plans they've got.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#38 - 2011-10-12 20:05:03 UTC
Tech is probably being nerfed either in the winter expansion or some other patch before or afterwards, but CCP aren't going to come out and announce mineral rebalancing in advance because that will just cause the market to meltdown through speculation. Expect it, but don't rely on dev blogs or posts to tip you off.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Joshua Aivoras
Tech IV Industries
#39 - 2011-10-12 20:08:59 UTC
Shaidar Hussan wrote:
Nurdra wrote:
T2 production should be redesined again to reduce the bottleneck. r32 moons should not be that good, r64 are the rar ones.
Redesine the need of ressource for t2 manufactering and the moon peoblem will be solved or at leased it will be better than now.

Didn't they say they were messing with t2 production in the winter expansion, or was that just t2 rig production? Would be interesting to see what plans they've got.


I believe they are adding new Tech 2 items, don't think it said anything about 'addressing' Tech 2 production

95% of the players are loving EVE, the other 5%? On the forums.

Nurdra
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2011-10-12 20:49:26 UTC
Joshua Aivoras wrote:
Shaidar Hussan wrote:
Nurdra wrote:
T2 production should be redesined again to reduce the bottleneck. r32 moons should not be that good, r64 are the rar ones.
Redesine the need of ressource for t2 manufactering and the moon peoblem will be solved or at leased it will be better than now.

Didn't they say they were messing with t2 production in the winter expansion, or was that just t2 rig production? Would be interesting to see what plans they've got.


I believe they are adding new Tech 2 items, don't think it said anything about 'addressing' Tech 2 production


Yes, new T2 modules are announced.

Let's hope they are goining to balance existing t2 modules for less tech need, without announcement.
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